Chinese style high-speed rail network needed for Europe

[Acfb]

The problem is that steel-wheel-on-steel-rail systems simply aren't fast enough to break flights on these long journeys.

I know people laugh at it, but if you want to kill continental scale air travel you need something resembling the Chūō Shinkansen.
It's rated to accelerate significantly faster than a tube train and keep that up almost all the way to 505km/h.

A steel rail system that struggles to operate economically above 350km/h and takes ages to accelerate there simply can't compete with planes that can do treble that.

TBH, I'm only really talking about point to point routes where there is an already existing train service which takes ~3 hours or less like Zurich-Milan, Rome-Milan, Tokyo-Osaka* etc where the train is viable.

*Yes I know the Shinkansen is rather expensive for Japanese citizens. I don't know if the Chuo Shinkansen could help reduce prices on the existing Shinkansen. I can understand why Tokyo-Fukuoka is the joint busiest domestic air route in Japan as it still takes 5 hours on Nozomi Shinkansen and is the same distance as London-John o' Groats.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem is that steel-wheel-on-steel-rail systems simply aren't fast enough to break flights on these long journeys.

I know people laugh at it, but if you want to kill continental scale air travel you need something resembling the Chūō Shinkansen.
It's rated to accelerate significantly faster than a tube train and keep that up almost all the way to 505km/h.

A steel rail system that struggles to operate economically above 350km/h and takes ages to accelerate there simply can't compete with planes that can do treble that.

Or you stop trying to be faster and start trying to be better. Quality interiors with high levels of comfort and facilities, to make the journey enjoyable and/or productive rather than just cramming into a stinking Voyager.

It might not matter, for example, that a work journey takes an extra hour if there is a proper table to work on, mains power for the laptop, and wifi that is more than just a cheap mobile phone bolted to the ceiling. Nor if the family is provided for with dedicated space for children to play.

 

[Roast Veg]

Or you improve the environmental credentials of short haul flights by taking kerosene out of the equation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or you improve the environmental credentials of short haul flights by taking kerosene out of the equation.

There is a considerable danger to long haul diesel rail that air could indeed steal the environmental credential. Rail doesn't seem to take this threat seriously at all.

Blanket electrification of all but the tiniest branch lines is required, urgently.

 

[Austriantrain]

In particular, if you can ensure that connections between trains and flights are guaranteed (i.e. If the train is delayed, its treated the same as a delayed connecting flight and the airline puts you on the next flight and/or pays compensation as necessary and vice versa ), then longer train journeys to a larger airport to catch a long-distance flight become far more attractive and connecting itineraries with these short flights could be removed.

This is done in Austria between Salzburg and Vienna Airport on specific trains and no doubt will also be done on the „Südbahn“ once the Semmering tunnel and the Koralmbahn are operational and journey times to Vienna are finally competitive.

However, you have to book an Austrian Airlines (or partner airline) flight and that is part of the problem - the choice doesn’t exist if you use another airline. It especially doesn’t exist with budget airlines. True, these never honour connections anyway, but it severely reduce the choices available if you want to use the train to reach a plane.

Also, since Vienna - and it is not alone in Europe among the big cities - is not a major intercontinental hub, people will still take a short flight to Frankfurt or Zurich (or drive to Munich, where unfortunately the airport is badly rail connected)… and so short flights are still encouraged.

Similarly you can then designate specific trains as "flight trains", that are timetabled and signalled to minimise delays, so that the reliability is as high as possible.

I am skeptical if this is really feasible on today‘s very densely used railway in more than very select cases. I can’t imagine it in Austria.

 

[Acfb]

This is done in Austria between Salzburg and Vienna Airport on specific trains and no doubt will also be done on the „Südbahn“ once the Semmering tunnel and the Koralmbahn are operational and journey times to Vienna are finally competitive.

However, you have to book an Austrian Airlines (or partner airline) flight and that is part of the problem - the choice doesn’t exist if you use another airline. It especially doesn’t exist with budget airlines. True, these never honour connections anyway, but it severely reduce the choices available if you want to use the train to reach a plane.

Also, since Vienna - and it is not alone in Europe among the big cities - is not a major intercontinental hub, people will still take a short flight to Frankfurt or Zurich (or drive to Munich, where unfortunately the airport is badly rail connected)… and so short flights are still encouraged.



I am skeptical if this is really feasible on today‘s very densely used railway in more than very select cases. I can’t imagine it in Austria.

Salzburg to Munich Airport is actually not too bad on the train as it is a cross platform interchange at Ostbahnhof to get the S8 to Munich Airport and it can be done in about 2 and a quarter hours. I have done this before in 2005 after a holiday in the Salzkammergut.

 

[Austriantrain]

Salzburg to Munich Airport is actually not too bad on the train as it is a cross platform interchange at Ostbahnhof to get the S8 to Munich Airport and it can be done in about 2 and a quarter hours. I have done this before in 2005 after a holiday in the Salzkammergut.

True (Innsbruck too), but I am not under the impression that it is a particularly popular option. The extension of Long-distance trains to Vienna Airport OTOH worked out quite well bevor COVID.

 

[AlbertBeale]

The problem is that steel-wheel-on-steel-rail systems simply aren't fast enough to break flights on these long journeys.

This assumes that time is everything - maybe we need to learn to travel more slowly if we want to maintain a viable ecosystem for our species.

 

[DanielB]

I'm still very surprised that there are some very short flights with viable rail alternatives that exist in Europe where there are rail alternatives that only take 1.5 hours such as FRA-STR, FRA-DUS and AMS-BRU

At Amsterdam - Brussel one flight was already replaced by rail last year, with the incentive to replace more of those flights, which are mainly used for passengers changing onto long-haul KLM flights.
That's probably also the reason that this is a joint operation with Thalys from Brussels South, so mainly aimed on Belgians flying KLM.

Still surprising that still four flights are left however, as Amsterdam Airport Schiphol and Brussels Airport actually are connected by direct intercity services. Albeit a bit slow...

 

[HSTEd]

This assumes that time is everything - maybe we need to learn to travel more slowly if we want to maintain a viable ecosystem for our species.

Well leaving aside the implication that only those rich enough to take massive time off will be allowed to travel, there is no practical level of global warming that will render the future of the species "unviable".

Humanity will survive, we merely decide how grim it will be in the future.

And given a choice of making travel the precinct of the rich or building a maglev system, I will chose the latter every single time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This assumes that time is everything - maybe we need to learn to travel more slowly if we want to maintain a viable ecosystem for our species.

And part of that is making rail somehow else better, to justify the slower journey. A Voyager is not better than an easyJet plane.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Well leaving aside the implication that only those rich enough to take massive time off will be allowed to travel, there is no practical level of global warming that will render the future of the species "unviable".

Humanity will survive, we merely decide how grim it will be in the future.

And given a choice of making travel the precinct of the rich or building a maglev system, I will chose the latter every single time.

In global terms, long-distance travel is already the preserve of the rich. And anyway, the amount of time people have available for travel is not only related to how rich they are. If travel by air was strictly rationed, then being rich wouldn't mean you could trash the ecosystem on that account. (Though most rich people are, admittedly, trashing the ecosystem in many ways besides flying.) A trade-off for slower journeys is shorter and/or fewer journeys - I think we have no choice as things stand.

Yes, our species is likely to survive in some form - but the way things are going, that survival is unlikely to be in a way that most of us would find recognisably comfortable. The danger is that the ecosystem we're left with is inimical to our species, leaving us with a "grim", as you say, existence. I'd rather we rein in our excesses extremely quickly, so as to avoid the worst of the possible scenarios. Better to have a more modest (in consumption terms) existence, and for it to be sustainable, than going for broke (which the richer parts of the world are doing at the moment).

And part of that is making rail somehow else better, to justify the slower journey. A Voyager is not better than an easyJet plane.

The justification for a slower journey is that we aren't doing such unnecessary damage to the planet in the process. I would hope that for most people that would be enough.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The justification for a slower journey is that we aren't doing such unnecessary damage to the planet in the process. I would hope that for most people that would be enough.

It won't be.

 

[Ianno87]

Well leaving aside the implication that only those rich enough to take massive time off will be allowed to travel, there is no practical level of global warming that will render the future of the species "unviable".

Although, if you are an office based "agile" worker, you can work on the journey to your weekend away etc.

No need to the stay in the office until 5 and then travel - make the train ride part of your working day.

Appreciate not everybody has that luxury though, but it's an option for those who can. Perhaps just requires a cultural shift.

(I've done an entire working day doing Cambridge-London-Holyhead-Dublin and was far more productive than if I'd flown).

 

[Speed43125]

I do seem to remember having to put luggage through a scanner on the Shanghai Metro - or it may have been Beijing. Somebody told me it was an artificial job creation scheme, similar to ex French army veterans being given jobs as lock-keepers on canals with no boats. However, I may be talking rubbish, so perhaps someone who has visited China recently could confirm or negate.

OT; That's indeed pretty common in China. On the Shanghai Metro even a small rucksack or handbag can be liable to going through the machines. Depending on the type of bag and time of day they can be much more willing to just be shown the inside of a bag with you not even having to stop. The other tactic is to simply slow down as you get to the person telling you to put your bag in the machine, then just keep walking - has worked rather well for me

 

[miklcct]

I do seem to remember having to put luggage through a scanner on the Shanghai Metro - or it may have been Beijing. Somebody told me it was an artificial job creation scheme, similar to ex French army veterans being given jobs as lock-keepers on canals with no boats. However, I may be talking rubbish, so perhaps someone who has visited China recently could confirm or negate.

Anti-terrorism is used as a justification for that since the 2008 Olympics - you know that public transport is an easy target for terrorists.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Anti-terrorism is used as a justification for that since the 2008 Olympics - you know that public transport is an easy target for terrorists.

Should that be excuse rather than justification?

 

[subk2010]

I can confirm that in China, the security check is required by law on every metro systems.

I do seem to remember having to put luggage through a scanner on the Shanghai Metro - or it may have been Beijing. Somebody told me it was an artificial job creation scheme, similar to ex French army veterans being given jobs as lock-keepers on canals with no boats. However, I may be talking rubbish, so perhaps someone who has visited China recently could confirm or negate.

 

[Wolfie]

Should that be excuse rather than justification?

There have been numerous terrorist incidents in China. They have provided an excuse to maltreat certain minorities.

 

[jedimasterc]

It is true that more Chinese enterprises set up their offices in Europe under the Belt and Road Initiative project, CRRC is no exception, but in the following article, I wondered what do they mean for "Chinese style high-speed rail network", does it mean CRRC may institute a high-speed train model to compete with Siemens/Alstom?

https://www.railjournal.com/infrast...l-network-needed-for-europe-siemens-mobility/

Are you talking about the chinese rail network that is so in debt that it and evegrande threaten to destablise the world economy......

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Nov 2021 ==

Frankly, it has to happen if our continent (and the world in general) is going to remain a pleasantly liveable place for our species. I really don't understand how so many people seem not to have clicked yet that the ecological state we've got ourslves into is deadly serious, and requires more than tinkering round the edges. Major changes in transport - such as most planes and private cars being retired asap, and accepting we have to move around more slowly - are a crucial part of the changes needed.

You think that cars and planes are the cause of our environmental problems. The problem is Apple, Samsung, Google and all modern mobile phone and tablet manufacturers. The desrtuction of forests to get to materials to make these items. Our Greed and our reliance on China is what is driving the issues you talk about. Dieselgate was a bad look but that was a european instigated problem. As for your Carbon dioxide problem why don't you plant some trees in your back yard if you have one and if not then get some plants for your unit or villa. There is your carbon offset. I do have plenty of trees and vegetables in my back yard to help me offset my carbon emmisions what about you?

As for the domain of flying only for the rich I would beg to differ. Have you seen the price of rail tickets vs airlines?

 

[AlbertBeale]

Are you talking about the chinese rail network that is so in debt that it and evegrande threaten to destablise the world economy......

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Nov 2021 ==


You think that cars and planes are the cause of our environmental problems. The problem is Apple, Samsung, Google and all modern mobile phone and tablet manufacturers. The desrtuction of forests to get to materials to make these items. Our Greed and our reliance on China is what is driving the issues you talk about. Dieselgate was a bad look but that was a european instigated problem. As for your Carbon dioxide problem why don't you plant some trees in your back yard if you have one and if not then get some plants for your unit or villa. There is your carbon offset. I do have plenty of trees and vegetables in my back yard to help me offset my carbon emmisions what about you?

As for the domain of flying only for the rich I would beg to differ. Have you seen the price of rail tickets vs airlines?

I'm perfectly aware of the problems of Apple, Google, etc etc - which is why I don't willingly have anything to do with any of those companies. That doesn't mean that there aren't also massive problems caused by people who selfishly use planes and cars.

I also know how the figures stack up with regard to the impossibility of "carbon offsets" - there's no way I could plant enough trees to "offset" the carbon emissions I'd be responsible for if I used cars and planes. In global terms, flying most certainly is for the rich.