Chiltern's Mk3s

[ainsworth74]

All the other vehicles have end doors and vestibules, but the TSRMB has a doorway that opens directly into the saloon area.

Does it!? Well colour me embarrassed, sorry Rhydgaled for the duff info

 

[bronzeonion]

Really? I work for Chiltern and I cant tell the difference any more between ex WSMR coaches and the Mk3 coaches which were refurbished after WSMR folded. There is a slight difference in the ceiling aesthetically, but that is the only thing I can think off though I am fully prepared to admit I might have missed something.

When the coaches were fitted with power doors I know that the ex WSMR sets also had their WiFi upgraded (presumably wireless G to wireless N) so it's not like Chiltern have neglected the older coaches too. I do have to add to the WSMR love though, they really did a great job with them. I might be biased, but I think they are the best coaches on the network at the moment, and I'd go as far as to say that standard is so nice that it makes first/business a fairly pointless upgrade unless the train is very busy.

There arn't curtains fitted on the windows in standard and the toilets don't have the same fittings.

 

[Helvellyn]

The TSRMB vehicle in a 444 set does indeed contain the micro buffet, guard's office and the disabled loo. I assume the inset door is also for accessibility. All the other vehicles have end doors and vestibules, but the TSRMB has a doorway that opens directly into the saloon area.

This vehicle has no interior vestibule doors. The door by the universal toilet is inset, but the area above the universal toilet and the two pairs of table seats behind the toilet is where a pantogrpah would go (the empty well is visible on the coach).

There is also no interior vestibule door from the vestibule into the saloon behind the cab of the DMSO, which is odd given that the opposite vestibule behind the cab of the DMCO does have slidings interior doors.

Now if only AC 442s (342?) had been possible, anyone up for some of those?

I'm sure at the original build, nothing would have physically stopped BR building an AC version. But at the time only NSE wanted such a thing. If electrification had been more extensive, perhaps RR or even IC would have ordered such things, but a combination of money and different management seems to have resulted in only NSE managing to eliminate loco hauled from their sector

I've read that NSE considered an additional 4 442s (Would have been 2425-2428), and there were REP motors available to build these, but basically they couldn't get the funding.

As to an a.c. version they would have been a great replacement for the Class 309s (Say a fleet of 14-16 units), but the Class 309 refurbishment in the mid-1980s meant nobody probably looked at that. They would also have been ideal for InterCity to use on Birmingham to Glasgow and Edinburgh, Birmingham to Manchester and Liverpool, and Manchester to Glasgow and Edinburgh services in place of Class 86/2s and Mk 2D/2E/2F coaches. Heck, the fact the the 442s could be hauled and heated by Class 33 and 73 locomotives means that an a.c. version could have been set up to be hauled and heated by a Class 47/8 between Manchester and Preston.

 

[RobShipway]

This vehicle has no interior vestibule doors. The door by the universal toilet is inset, but the area above the universal toilet and the two pairs of table seats behind the toilet is where a pantogrpah would go (the empty well is visible on the coach).

There is also no interior vestibule door from the vestibule into the saloon behind the cab of the DMSO, which is odd given that the opposite vestibule behind the cab of the DMCO does have slidings interior doors.


I've read that NSE considered an additional 4 442s (Would have been 2425-2428), and there were REP motors available to build these, but basically they couldn't get the funding.

As to an a.c. version they would have been a great replacement for the Class 309s (Say a fleet of 14-16 units), but the Class 309 refurbishment in the mid-1980s meant nobody probably looked at that. They would also have been ideal for InterCity to use on Birmingham to Glasgow and Edinburgh, Birmingham to Manchester and Liverpool, and Manchester to Glasgow and Edinburgh services in place of Class 86/2s and Mk 2D/2E/2F coaches. Heck, the fact the the 442s could be hauled and heated by Class 33 and 73 locomotives means that an a.c. version could have been set up to be hauled and heated by a Class 47/8 between Manchester and Preston.

The fact that there was not an AC version of the class 442's was I suspect down to the short sighted thoughts of the Goverment of the time believing that they would not be an increase in passenger denmand, so it was better to refurbish the trains that where in existance. This is also why some of the Mk1 trains for the Hastings/Kent routes got refurbished rather than new trains being provided.

One question though, when the 442's are withdrawn would the coaches between the driving trailers be able to be continued to be used as I suspect with their sliding doors that they meet future disability laws?

 

[MCR247]

I doubt they do, it goes a lot further than just having sliding doors I think

 

[RobShipway]

I doubt they do, it goes a lot further than just having sliding doors I think

Okay, thanks that is what I thought might be the case.

 

[route:oxford]

The fact that there was not an AC version of the class 442's was I suspect down to the short sighted thoughts of the Goverment of the time believing that they would not be an increase in passenger denmand, so it was better to refurbish the trains that where in existance.

I do like the idea of a AC Variant of the 442.

A 7 car variant on a Edinburgh/Glasgow - Birmingham Route would probably have driven growth.

Diagrams were very different in the olden days though.

 

[Peter Sarf]

If an equivalent AC (orDC) EMU was built along the lines of a MK3 nowadays it would have a diesel engine under it. Wouldn't it !.

Lets hope the loco hauled MK3s (and HST trailers) find more loco hauled opportunities. We have evidence of what a good refurbishment can achieve, now all we need is a loco. Of course one day some one will say short sighted people refurbished the MK3s rather than replacing them (like the aforementioned problem with the Kent Coast stock and 309s). As I commuted on the refurbished Kent Coast trains I can say they were better then the 465s (which got rid of the higher density VEPs, EPBs and HAPs). Chilterns handling of a MK3 is very much an example of making a difference and I think it is a step forward.

Of course a good place for the Class 442 (5WES) units would be a longer legged route like Waterloo to Weymouth .

 

[RobShipway]

If an equivalent AC (orDC) EMU was built along the lines of a MK3 nowadays it would have a diesel engine under it. Wouldn't it !.

Lets hope the loco hauled MK3s (and HST trailers) find more loco hauled opportunities. We have evidence of what a good refurbishment can achieve, now all we need is a loco. Of course one day some one will say short sighted people refurbished the MK3s rather than replacing them (like the aforementioned problem with the Kent Coast stock and 309s). As I commuted on the refurbished Kent Coast trains I can say they were better then the 465s (which got rid of the higher density VEPs, EPBs and HAPs). Chilterns handling of a MK3 is very much an example of making a difference and I think it is a step forward.

Of course a good place for the Class 442 (5WES) units would be a longer legged route like Waterloo to Weymouth .

The class 444's don't do a bad job on the Waterloo - Weymouth route, but for me it is not the same as when I lived down in Bournemouth between 1991 - 1996 where, travelling down to Weymouth or up to London would involve me travelling in the comfort of the 442's.

 

[455driver]

There is also no interior vestibule door from the vestibule into the saloon behind the cab of the DMSO, which is odd given that the opposite vestibule behind the cab of the DMCO does have slidings interior doors.

They were missed off the spec sheet and so where not fitted!

Keep it to yourself because its a secret!