Chiltern v Cross Country why the difference

[asylumxl]

Voyagers never work in multiple ?

 

[Zoe]

Get rid of larger stops and you curtail the major flows. Introduce local stopping services and you need to find stock and paths (for services that probably will require significant subsidy).

Indeed, XC provides a service these days at smaller stations when the other TOC on the route runs fast. For example every XC service now calls at Tiverton Parkway and Totnes, allowing an houlry service to be maintained at these stations in the hours they are skipped by FGW services.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

It's not particularly difficult to fill a very small train, is it? After First Class, driving cabs and huge bike stores

You have a funny idea of huge

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:British_Rail_Class_221_bicycles.JPG

That's the full extent of bike accommodation on an Arriva-ised Voyager.

 

[LexyBoy]

Brand reputation also tarnishes a franchise aswell, after all Arriva are not particularly well known for providing a good bus service and as it is well known that arriva own CrossCountry franchise.

I don't think many people know this at all. More likely if you asked passengers it would go like this:
A: Which company runs these trains?
B: Virgin
A: No actually, it's Arriva.
B: Oh. Didn't they used to be Norwich Union?
A: No, not Aviva, Arriva.
B: ??
A: They run buses
B: OK...

Maybe it's an opportunity for them to introduce a GREAT WESTN ONLY fare!

The flow is owned by FGW so it could only be a temporary fare if they did so (I think you were joking anyway). More bizarrely FGW also own Reading-Southampton. I suppose they do run trains to both...

 

[142056]

There seems to have been a lot of mention of bikes on this thread. What I have wondered is where the bikes went pre-'Arriva'isation and what that space is used for now?

 

[Doctor Fegg]

In the crumple zone at one end of the train.

When Arriva took out the shop to replace it with luggage space, the old bike space was repurposed for trolley storage:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/thebustocrookes/5266303404/

and the bike space was squeezed into the tail end of the luggage area.

 

[Zoe]

And they made a laudable start with the re-introduction of the HST's, which should never have been withdrawn in the first place.

Had Virgin XC retained their HST fleet though, they wouldn't have been available for FGW to use on Thames/Kennet semi-fast commuter services which I doubt the turbos would be able to cope with these days.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I don't think many people know this at all. More likely if you asked passengers it would go like this:
A: Which company runs these trains?
B: Virgin
A: No actually, it's Arriva.
B: Oh. Didn't they used to be Norwich Union?
A: No, not Aviva, Arriva.
B: ??
A: They run buses
B: OK...

You can imagine the shock on Anglesey when a firm called Areva proposed to build a nuclear power station at Wylfa.
What, our local bus/train company running a nuclear reactor?!

Turns out Areva is actually a major French nuclear company (they pulled out).
What's with all these (daft) brand names?
Areva is apparently named after their HQ building (a bit like Porterbrook and the other ROSCOs).
Arriva and Aviva are just made up.

 

[bnm]

I have a choice of two operators from Banbury to Oxford, XC and FGW, and I pretty much always choose FGW.

XC's blanket "no off-peak before 9.30" is insane and results in half-empty trains from 9.00, then crammed ones at 9.30. (Yes, I know that the restriction is in theory set by the company owning the flow and that it applies to all operators, but in practice FGW don't enforce XC's restrictions between Banbury and Oxford.)

FGW price the flow between Banbury and Oxford and Off Peak tickets are valid on the trains of all operators after 0845. So there are no XC restrictions for FGW to enforce on this flow.

XC refurbished some HSTs but, as Goatboy says, aren't actually using most of them - I think just two out of five (compare to FGW's four Adelante diagrams from a five-strong fleet).

CrossCountry are currently using 3 HST sets on Monday-Friday. On Sundays they are using 4 sets. It is currently only on a Saturday that they are using just 2 sets.

FGW may well have an optimum use of the Class 180s at 4 diagrams using 5 sets, but the reliability has, until recently, been atrocious, seeing Turbos regularly brought in to cover. Through January and February the good folk at Old Oak Common were struggling to get just 2 sets into traffic.

I'm not a big fan of CrossCountry but I think sometimes the criticism is unjustified, particularly when facts are twisted to suit preconceived notions.

 

[Geezertronic]

What's with all these (daft) brand names?
Areva is apparently named after their HQ building (a bit like Porterbrook and the other ROSCOs).
Arriva and Aviva are just made up.

Wonder how Angel Trains got that name?

 

[Goatboy]

In the crumple zone at one end of the train.

When Arriva took out the shop to replace it with luggage space, the old bike space was repurposed for trolley storage:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/thebustocrookes/5266303404/

and the bike space was squeezed into the tail end of the luggage area.

Whats in the rest of that space?

 

[Doctor Fegg]

FGW price the flow between Banbury and Oxford and Off Peak tickets are valid on the trains of all operators after 0845. So there are no XC restrictions for FGW to enforce on this flow.

Ok, I was sort of simplifying here because I really didn't think you'd want the boring details of my travel but...

My usual journey was from Charlbury to Burton-on-Trent. SVR priced by CrossCountry, usual restriction 2V. In practice: leave Charlbury on the 08.31, when everyone else is on an Off-Peak ticket therefore the conductors (who can't be expected to know the entire NFM) are happy with anything that says 'Off-Peak'. Jump onto the 08.53 FGW stopper at Oxford; conductors equally happy. Arrive Banbury at 09.22, ready to continue on an off-peak train.

Yeah, I know. But believe me, I used to wait at Oxford while the 09.07 XC went through, mostly empty. Strictly speaking, the first off-peak train I should have caught was the 09.41 out of Charlbury, arriving Burton 12.18, for the still none-too-cheap SVR fare of £45.20.

Or I could drive, 1hr35 and easy, clear roads leaving at any time after 8am. I stuck with the train because I'm confident enough to bend the system slightly and disregard the journey-planners' advice, but most people wouldn't. Meanwhile, like I say, the 09.07 goes through Oxford mostly empty, and doesn't get at all full until Leamington where people are travelling on cheap local tickets into Birmingham. CrossCountry's blanket 9.30am off-peak start, I suspect, is actually costing them quite a lot.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Pendolinos - Comforable ??!!:hock: You must be joking ! They are worse than Voyagers - and that's saying a lot.

I have had several trips on Pendolinos recently and had come to the conclusion they are the most uncomfortable train known to mankind. The problem is that the window seats dont actually have windows by most of them, and the way the side of the unit comes in as it goes up the vertical means theres no space for ones shoulders.

There is the option of an aisle seat but then you get bashed by everyone passing by.

 

[bILLOO]

I find the Pendolino trains very comfortable and smooth. Never really had any complaints about them... although on my last trip on one, the 'window seat' reservation was actually next to a wall.

 

[asylumxl]

I find the Pendolino trains very comfortable and smooth. Never really had any complaints about them... although on my last trip on one, the 'window seat' reservation was actually next to a wall.

I agree. And I think that's down to Virgin Trains booking system in my experience. I had a partial view reservation with them but it was actually no view at all. There were plenty of better, non reserved seats anyway!

 

[CC 72100]

FGW price the flow between Banbury and Oxford and Off Peak tickets are valid on the trains of all operators after 0845. So there are no XC restrictions for FGW to enforce on this flow.



CrossCountry are currently using 3 HST sets on Monday-Friday. On Sundays they are using 4 sets. It is currently only on a Saturday that they are using just 2 sets.

3 on a Monday + Friday, 2 Tues/Weds/Thurs, and weekends as you state above.

 

[The Planner]

Fantastic thread drift from Chiltern to "Pendos are the spawn of the devil..."

 

[Simon11]

I have had several trips on Pendolinos recently and had come to the conclusion they are the most uncomfortable train known to mankind. The problem is that the window seats dont actually have windows by most of them, and the way the side of the unit comes in as it goes up the vertical means theres no space for ones shoulders.

There is the option of an aisle seat but then you get bashed by everyone passing by.

Does a lack of a window really mean a seat is unconfortable?

Most trains have this issue including chiltern trains (not mark 3).

With pendos, the windows are in the same place for first and standard class. Therefore first class line up, and with small room for a seat in standard, they won't all line up.

 

[ainsworth74]

This thread is for Chiltern and Cross Country not for discussion about the lack (or not) of comfort found in 390s. I would therefore ask that such discussion is carried out elsewhere on the forum and not on this thread.

 

[Morden Via CHX]

And I might be bold enough to say that this suits DB...

Agree completely

 

[Requeststop]

There must be a reason why you think the trains should call at small towns and cities (and one Parkway) but omit the major cities and railway hubs of Sheffield and Leeds ?

Indeed. In Cornwall, most people will either drive or have family or friends to the station to pick up the trains, especially for a long distance journey. ie St Agnes/The Lizard Peninuslar to Truro, or Bude to Exeter etc. If you ever look at the platforms at stops such as St. Austell, Bodmin Parkway, Par, Liskeard etc you see many people are seeing off friends/family or waiting to greet them. So certain stops within Cornwall/Devon could be omitted. Those from mid-sized towns, cities with stations and services to larger and better rail hubs can connect via local services. i.e Torbay/South Devon to Exeter. Why call at Newton Abbot when passengers headed Northwards could get a local service to Exeter. and connect the same way as those from Barnstaple or Exmouth or those travelling from East Devon.

Why make the tortuous journey Sheffield, through Wakefield and Leeds to get to York on XC services when there are perfectly good connections to these stations? My point is that it is possible to make XC journeys much faster by eliminating many stops, by using imaginative use of connections and looking at how people get to and from stations, and of course making the trains longer than 4-car on a 744 mile journey from Aberdeen-Penzance. Though I suppose using the word imaginative in connection with XC is somewhat a facile suggestion.

 

[Deerfold]

Turns out Areva is actually a major French nuclear company (they pulled out).
What's with all these (daft) brand names?
Areva is apparently named after their HQ building (a bit like Porterbrook and the other ROSCOs).
Arriva and Aviva are just made up.

"Arriva" does mean "It arrives" in Italian which is at least relevant.

 

[Goatboy]

Why call at Newton Abbot when passengers headed Northwards could get a local service to Exeter. and connect the same way as those from Barnstaple or Exmouth or those travelling from East Devon.

Because it would prevent customers from West of Newton Abbot from using XC services to travel to Paignton and Torquay as they must change at NA to avoid doubling back.

What about Cheltenham Spa?

XC provide the only services to and from Birmingham New Street and the majority of services to Bristol Temple Meads as well as the main source of connections to Worcester.

Why make the tortuous journey Sheffield, through Wakefield and Leeds to get to York on XC services when there are perfectly good connections to these stations?

Agreed.

 

[jimm]

Indeed. In Cornwall, most people will either drive or have family or friends to the station to pick up the trains, especially for a long distance journey. ie St Agnes/The Lizard Peninuslar to Truro, or Bude to Exeter etc. If you ever look at the platforms at stops such as St. Austell, Bodmin Parkway, Par, Liskeard etc you see many people are seeing off friends/family or waiting to greet them. So certain stops within Cornwall/Devon could be omitted. Those from mid-sized towns, cities with stations and services to larger and better rail hubs can connect via local services. i.e Torbay/South Devon to Exeter. Why call at Newton Abbot when passengers headed Northwards could get a local service to Exeter. and connect the same way as those from Barnstaple or Exmouth or those travelling from East Devon.

Why make the tortuous journey Sheffield, through Wakefield and Leeds to get to York on XC services when there are perfectly good connections to these stations? My point is that it is possible to make XC journeys much faster by eliminating many stops, by using imaginative use of connections and looking at how people get to and from stations, and of course making the trains longer than 4-car on a 744 mile journey from Aberdeen-Penzance. Though I suppose using the word imaginative in connection with XC is somewhat a facile suggestion.

You make it sound as though XC trains in the West Country are stopping at every little halt. They only stop at what are considered by people as the main towns and cities in the region - sorry if they're not very big places but outside Exeter, Torbay and Plymouth, it's a large, sparsely populated region.

And take a look at the Plymouth-Penzance timetable and think what early to mid-morning and late-evening services would look like in cornwall if you took out stops (XC don't venture west of Plymouth for the rest of the day anyway).

Newton Abbot is the junction of the branch from Paignton. Exeter is the junction for the lines to Exmouth, Barnstaple and the SWT route (though most people from East Devon going north would drive to Tiverton anyway). Why shouldn't people travelling to and from Torbay (population 131,000, never mind all the visitors) be able to change at Newton Abbot instead of sharing with passengers using all the intermediate stations between there and Exeter, who also probably wouldn't appreciate having to share their trains with people laden with luggage. Same goes for Newquay passengers, where do you think they are going to change?

Why make the 'tortuous' journey through Sheffield, Leeds and Wakefield? Let's try the obvious answer, lots of people live there and lots of people also like through trains (which have been making these sorts of journeys for over a century) - and just the same as in the West Country, the local trains are very busy with local passengers, so long-distance passengers with lots of luggage are unlikely to appreciate being turfed off at Derby - especially when pretty much the only services between Derby and South and West Yorkshire are run by XC...

There are far more people wanting to go to/from these places than are ever likely to make a through journey from Devon and Cornwall to Scotland by rail, even if you did shave off a bit of journey time. Train service patterns haven't developed over the years by accident - they go where the people and the money are or, in the case of the West Country, where they go on holiday.

 

[tbtc]

Why make the tortuous journey Sheffield, through Wakefield and Leeds to get to York on XC services when there are perfectly good connections to these stations? My point is that it is possible to make XC journeys much faster by eliminating many stops, by using imaginative use of connections and looking at how people get to and from stations, and of course making the trains longer than 4-car on a 744 mile journey from Aberdeen-Penzance. Though I suppose using the word imaginative in connection with XC is somewhat a facile suggestion.

Well, you could avoid the big cities and speed up the journey for those travelling from Edinburgh to Plymouth, you could even speed the service up by omitting Birmingham, but you'd be focussing on a handful of passengers and ignoring thousands.

What next - Manchester Airport to Middlesbrough being sped up by omitting Piccadilly and Leeds? Bedford to Brighton being sped up by not stopping at stations in central London?

People really need to get away from the idea that XC is about travelling from Aberdeen to Penzance - it's bread and butter is those travelling journeys of a hundred miles (or shorter).

The fact that XC tried to get more paths via Leeds (which would be slower for longer distance passengers compared to the Doncaster route) shows that they know the priorities for the franchise.

 

[Goatboy]

People really need to get away from the idea that XC is about travelling from Aberdeen to Penzance

For many of us, XC is about making long journeys. It is therefore hardly surprising that our opinions are shaped as a result of our experiences.

And a quick glance at the reservation screens of an XC awaiting departure in Plymouth or Penzance, Edinburgh or Aberdeen, will show you numerous seats booked not to the next stop but to destinations many hours away. I appreciate that this overlooks the fact short hop passengers are far less likely to book than long distance ones but it at least demonstrates that many people DO travel far using XC services.

I appreciate that living in Sheffield nowhere is that far away for you especially on the XC network but lots of people live at either end of the network, too. Birmingham is 3.5 hours from Plymouth and 5.5 hours from Penzance, Leeds is 3+ hours from Edinburgh..

 

[tbtc]

For many of us, XC is about making long journeys. It is therefore hardly surprising that our opinions are shaped as a result of our experiences.

And a quick glance at the reservation screens of an XC awaiting departure in Plymouth or Penzance, Edinburgh or Aberdeen, will show you numerous seats booked not to the next stop but to destinations many hours away. I appreciate that this overlooks the fact short hop passengers are far less likely to book than long distance ones but it at least demonstrates that many people DO travel far using XC services.

I appreciate that living in Sheffield nowhere is that far away for you especially on the XC network but lots of people live at either end of the network, too. Birmingham is 3.5 hours from Plymouth and 5.5 hours from Penzance, Leeds is 3+ hours from Edinburgh..

Some people use XC for journeys of over 100 miles, of course, but this fascination that some people have for Aberdeen - Penzance journeys ignores the vast majority of XC passengers.

 

[Goatboy]

Some people use XC for journeys of over 100 miles, of course, but this fascination that some people have for Aberdeen - Penzance journeys ignores the vast majority of XC passengers.

I accept that few people travel Penzance to Aberdeen but many people travel Penzance to Birmingham or Bristol to Newcastle and Edinburgh or Exeter to Leeds

All of these are what most people would consider a long journey and have the same 'comfort requirements' or whatever as the odd few doing the entire trip.

 

[Zoe]

Edinburgh or Exeter to Leeds

Which explains the Leeds routing. I'm not sure Edinburgh or Exeter to Doncaster would have the same demand and in the case of Edinburgh there are East Coast trains to Doncaster.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

"Arriva" does mean "It arrives" in Italian which is at least relevant.

It's a pity that their buses don't have the reputation for arriving that their name would suggest...