Chiltern timetable

[nw1]

First of all I'd like to say as a disclaimer it's not my local area, and I may have missed something, but I'm curious as to the very high frequency (7 trains per hour) on the Chiltern main line.

Looking at the timetable and using my (vague) understanding of the area, it seems to me that this could perhaps be reduced to 5, with some of the trains being extended in length to maintain the capacity. Firstly there is an xx21 and xx25 both of which seem to be stopping trains each with slightly different stopping pattern. Could these be combined into one?

Secondly if both the xx15 and xx45 Birmingham trains stopped at High Wycombe (which seems to be quite a large place, based on the couple of times I've been there - similar in population to Guildford I would guess - so that seems a good idea in itself) they could perhaps do away with one of the xx18 or xx48, and just have an hourly Banbury or Stratford semi-fast.

I am just curious as to the rationale for 7 trains an hour off peak, this is not meant in any way to be a criticism and as I said earlier, I am not a "local" and may have missed something.

 

[30907]

The timetable does look extravagant, but a closer look suggests that it's the only way to fit the stopping services between the two Birmingham fasts.

And as long as Chiltern want to compete to Birmingham (and with the M40 to Warwick) I don't see them wanting to slow those down with extra stops.

 

[swt_passenger]

The current timetable is already designed to allow for the extension/diversion of two trains per hour to Oxford without having to do any significant alterations. What they'll do is basically redirect nearly all the trains that currently run only as far as Bicester North or Banbury.

It may be better to look at the current timetable in that light, rather than what is currently offered, so think of it as 2 tph to Brum, 2 tph to Oxford, and 3 tph to 'others'...

 

[67018]

To expand on previous replies:

Knocking out some of the xx18/xx48s would mean stopping the fast Birmingham trains at some or all of High Wycombe, Haddenham and Bicester North. No good for competing for the longer distance traffic. (The comparison of High Wycombe with Guildford is interesting - trains from London through Guildford generally go no further than Portsmouth, a similar distance on Chiltern would be Banbury)

The current timetable is a compromise between offering reasonable frequency to all the stations and not extending journey times too much. All fitting into a timetable where effectively a convoy of trains leaves Marlyebone every half an hour, fastest first, so if the slow trains are too slow/stop too often they get in the way of the next lot.

I once heard it described as an attempt to run a four-track timetable on a two-track railway. It is quite strange to see so many 2, 3 and 4 car trains running from a London terminal though.

 

[dk1]

I was on the very full 20.12 ex-Myb Friday. It does seem very odd to have such small trains leaving a London terminus.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

You have to consider where the route has come from too. BR were actively trying to close Marylebone in the 80s and it was very much a backwater right up until Shooter came in and decided to make it a proper London to Birmingham railway but there are still a lot of hangovers from the days when Marylebone was quiet.

 

[nw1]

Thanks for the replies. I guess I was seeing Chiltern as a somewhat secondary (but IMX of the 67-hauled sets and even the 168s, arguably superior in comfort) route to Birmingham so I was thinking that a stopping pattern such as High Wycombe-Banbury-Leamington Spa-Solihull-Birmingham for the fastest of the 2 trains an hour wouldn't be too slow. Factoring in the Oxford plans explains quite a bit too.

A side point: generally Chiltern trains aren't excessively full north of Banbury so I frequently change to them when travelling Southampton-Birmingham and northwards to escape overcrowded Cross Country services - even if that then means walking Moor St-New St.

 

[JonathanH]

Thanks for the replies. I guess I was seeing Chiltern as a somewhat secondary (but IMX of the 67-hauled sets and even the 168s, arguably superior in comfort) route to Birmingham so I was thinking that a stopping pattern such as High Wycombe-Banbury-Leamington Spa-Solihull-Birmingham for the fastest of the 2 trains an hour wouldn't be too slow. Factoring in the Oxford plans explains quite a bit too.

A side point: generally Chiltern trains aren't excessively full north of Banbury so I frequently change to them when travelling Southampton-Birmingham and northwards to escape overcrowded Cross Country services - even if that then means walking Moor St-New St.

One other point about short trains and the Chiltern timetable is that if the Birmingham trains had more stops they might need more carriages to alleviate overcrowding. Chiltern may not have enough to run longer Birmingham services. A split at Banbury, say, would further slow down the Birmingham service so it is better to run two trains.

 

[67018]

The line has certainly come a long way, even in the couple of years I've been using it (in fact it was one of the reasons I moved to the area). According to the latest timetable consultation we are even getting an 8-car train in December.

There is definitely a quiet bit between Banbury and Leamington, which seems an unusually long section with no station and no town of any size. But overall it must rate as pretty well used all day given the major cities at each end and Bicester Village in the middle.

The speed of the Birmingham trains does seem a bit cramped, though, by having Leamington and the two Warwicks so close together, which means Warwick town getting skipped in favour of the Parkway.

 

[dk1]

I still don't quite get Chiltern on the Brum front. They push the 90 minute thing, quoting Virgin as 84. Well as Chiltern do hardly any at that timing why not quote Virgins 72 mins on the 07.04 ex-Wolves? Look after Solihull, Leamington, Banbury & possibly High Wycombe & stop trying to compete with hardly any fast trains compared to Virgins really fast schedule at every 20 mins on every day of the week.

 

[Eagle]

There is definitely a quiet bit between Banbury and Leamington, which seems an unusually long section with no station and no town of any size.

There is pretty much nothing in that bit of Warwickshire. At a pinch you could add a station at Fenny Compton, but being as only the Birmingham services traverse that bit of line you wouldn't want them stopping there.

The parallel M40 has a similar long boring stretch between Banbury and Leamington. There is an intermediate junction (J12 for Gaydon) but that was only put in because the maximum distance allowed between motorway junctions is set at 14 miles (which is a requirement for emergency services).

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I still don't quite get Chiltern on the Brum front. They push the 90 minute thing, quoting Virgin as 84. Well as Chiltern do hardly any at that timing why not quote Virgins 72 mins on the 07.04 ex-Wolves? Look after Solihull, Leamington, Banbury & possibly High Wycombe & stop trying to compete with hardly any fast trains compared to Virgins really fast schedule at every 20 mins on every day of the week.

I'm not sure what you mean by either point really, I mean I think the advertising is trying to push the message that the difference in times is not as big as it used to be (or indeed as big as people might think) and surely the Birmingham service is also the Solihull & Leamington service? Leamington gets a handful of extra trains a day to London because of the Stratford service and a Warwick Parkway starter but essentially it gets whatever Moor Street gets. Solihull is even more closely tied to Moor Street in terms of service.

I've got no numbers in front of me but just from seeing the extra people who get on the trains every day at Solihull compared to before Evergreen 3 it wouldn't surprise me if Solihull has seen the biggest growth in terms of percentage over the past two years. I'm not sure if they are people who used to drive or people who previously travelled from Birmingham International before but something is definitely attracting new passengers.

 

[dvboy]

I still don't quite get Chiltern on the Brum front. They push the 90 minute thing, quoting Virgin as 84. Well as Chiltern do hardly any at that timing why not quote Virgins 72 mins on the 07.04 ex-Wolves? Look after Solihull, Leamington, Banbury & possibly High Wycombe & stop trying to compete with hardly any fast trains compared to Virgins really fast schedule at every 20 mins on every day of the week.

Better for people to think it's only 6 minutes slower for the majority of the daytime when they are targeting leisure passengers, than almost 20 at a peak time when most are business travellers that would go with Virgin anyway.

 

[dk1]

Better for people to think it's only 6 minutes slower for the majority of the daytime when they are targeting leisure passengers, than almost 20 at a peak time when most are business travellers that would go with Virgin anyway.

But it's not 6 minutes slower daytime. It's more like 15-20 mins with standard class only DMUs at less frequent intervals. I'm all for competition but be honest about what you are providing in comparison. Some of the headline ads are a tad mis-leading.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

It is, however, a lot quicker to enter and exit the stations at Marylebone and Moor Street compared to Euston and New Street so you'll be recovering a lot of that time difference in that way.

 

[The Planner]

The parallel M40 has a similar long boring stretch between Banbury and Leamington. There is an intermediate junction (J12 for Gaydon) but that was only put in because the maximum distance allowed between motorway junctions is set at 14 miles (which is a requirement for emergency services).

Where is that stipulated as there are examples of 14 mile+ stretches without a junction? As long as there was an emergency services exit somewhere then I don't see why that is an issue. There is an 18 mile stretch of the M26 and 17 mile on the M11. Junction 12 of the M40 was more to do with the MOD at Kineton, much like the unmarked junction on the M4 for RAF Welford.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I was on the very full 20.12 ex-Myb Friday. It does seem very odd to have such small trains leaving a London terminus.

You can find similar 2-car class 165 trains working out of Paddington, a much busier terminus.
All to change in 3-4 years time, however.

 

[Eagle]

There is an 18 mile stretch of the M26 and 17 mile on the M11.

Ah not quite. Those are 18 and 17 miles without an exit (in one direction only), not without a junction.

M11 J10 to M11 J8 is 17 miles, but there is the northbound-only J9 in between.

M26 J2a to M25 J6 is 18 miles, but there is eastbound-only J5 in between.

 

[67018]

But it's not 6 minutes slower daytime. It's more like 15-20 mins with standard class only DMUs at less frequent intervals. I'm all for competition but be honest about what you are providing in comparison. Some of the headline ads are a tad mis-leading.

But we are talking 'advertising' here - they are making the point that the service isn't that much slower, and it seems to be working judging by the loadings they are getting. Not just from Birmingham, half of Warwickshire seems to drive to Warwick Parkway these days.

Life would be very different if adverts had to be exact on every detail ('drink Coke - it tasts much the same as the competition and is still bad for your teeth!')

In the end, anyone planning to use them will look up the times they want to travel and draw their own conclusions.

(Personally, I find the trains *much* more comfortable than Virgin's - but maybe we shouldn't go there...)

 

[tbtc]

But we are talking 'advertising' here - they are making the point that the service isn't that much slower, and it seems to be working judging by the loadings they are getting. Not just from Birmingham, half of Warwickshire seems to drive to Warwick Parkway these days.

Life would be very different if adverts had to be exact on every detail ('drink Coke - it tasts much the same as the competition and is still bad for your teeth!')

In the end, anyone planning to use them will look up the times they want to travel and draw their own conclusions

I think we either compare fastest services (the one a day token speeded up train in the morning peak so beloved of some people) or we compare the average journey times.

Comparing one artificially fast with the "common or garden" time of another TOC is a bit misleading (ignoring the fact that many enthusiasts like to see Chiltern as the good guys with their loco hauled, whilst Big Bad Virgin have tiny windows etc etc)

 

[Eagle]

Having lived in Warwickshire for the past few years, there's definitely a third player in the advertising war, and it's London Midland. Who quite obviously are going for the price angle. They ran a lot of adverts when Chiltern's new timetable came in showing that their ticket prices had been jacked up significantly, and then saying "look at our £5 tickets from Coventry to London" (i.e. the lowest Advance tier, invariably sold out).

 

[dk1]

I don't think Virgin are that bothered really. Business on offer from the West Mids is very high & growing. Most will opt for Virgin if paid for by employer for speed & sheer convenience. I use BR boxes & apart from the odd novelty value would go nowhere else than VT at Euston to get there. I would also if them have paid no attention to W&SRs bleats of foul play a few years back. Perhaps Shrewsbury would still have a direct & actually 'fast' train to London now if that had been the case.

 

[anthony263]

Slightly off topic but I heard talk today that Chiltern have decided to launch a limited service between London Marylebone and Bicester on boxing day. I wonder how busy a service via Bicester Town would be on boxing day

 

[CockneySparrow]

It is, however, a lot quicker to enter and exit the stations at Marylebone and Moor Street compared to Euston and New Street so you'll be recovering a lot of that time difference in that way.

True, but your average passenger who looks at the times on various booking sites wont see it that way though

 

[Tetchytyke]

Slightly off topic but I heard talk today that Chiltern have decided to launch a limited service between London Marylebone and Bicester on boxing day. I wonder how busy a service via Bicester Town would be on boxing day

Between London and Bicester North, it'll be rammed because of the outlet village. Chinese tourists and students, in particular, seem to go crazy for that place.

Bicester Town's on the branch from Oxford.

I still don't quite get Chiltern on the Brum front. They push the 90 minute thing, quoting Virgin as 84. Well as Chiltern do hardly any at that timing why not quote Virgins 72 mins on the 07.04 ex-Wolves? Look after Solihull, Leamington, Banbury & possibly High Wycombe & stop trying to compete with hardly any fast trains compared to Virgins really fast schedule at every 20 mins on every day of the week.

They're pushing the fact they're not much slower than Virgin but significantly cheaper.

When I travel from London to see mates in Brum, I usually take Chiltern. £27 super off peak return, plus free wifi? That beats Virgin hands down.

 

[anthony263]

I know Bicester Town is on the line to Oxford I meant if Chiltern did happen to run a service over that line in the future on boxing day

 

[Cherry_Picker]

If the line to Town was open then trains would go there instead of North assuming Marylebone IECC has control of the signals. I think the beauty of the proposed service to Bicester North is it can all be done under one signal box.

 

[The Planner]

Marylebone will take the vast majority of the Bicester Oxford line.

 

[swt_passenger]

Marylebone will take the vast majority of the Bicester Oxford line.

...presumably until it gets re-controlled to a ROC. Will that be West Midlands (if it happens), Swindon or Rugby?

 

[CyrusWuff]

I still don't quite get Chiltern on the Brum front. They push the 90 minute thing, quoting Virgin as 84.

Chiltern were informally advised not to continue with the 90 minute claim, so changed it to 100 minutes with the second tranche of Mainline adverts.

The main angle for Northbound travel is the lack of peak restrictions from Marylebone.

Go from Euston - Birmingham New Street at 7:30am and return the same day and Virgin will charge you £158.00 (or £127.00 if you buy an Anytime Single out and an Off-Peak Single to come back) and London Midland will charge you £69.00 (or £67.90 for an Anytime Single out and a Super Off-Peak to come back). Chiltern, meanwhile, charge £50.00 for Marylebone to Birmingham Moor Street at the same time.

Leave Marylebone after 9am (10:53 arrival at Moor Street) and you can get that down to £27.50 Return, whereas London Midland will make you wait until 10:30 (13:01 arrival at New Street) to pay £23.00.

Heading South, if you need to arrive into London before 10:00, you'll pay £95 Return; arriving between 10:00 and 11:30, it's £50 and after that it's £27.50 (assuming you don't wish to return before 9am or between 4pm and 7pm).