Chiltern "simplifies" fares from London to Birmingham

[RJ]

Ah, simplification. Could've sworn the Super Off Peak return was £19.50 before the May 2011 fares change. A very customer friendly 28.2% fare increase.

 

[island]

But the ANY PERMITTED SVR (which Virgin controls) is valid any time from MYB!

 

[tony_mac]

The implication is they will restrict the Any Permitted to not allow peak evening travel out of Marylebone.

I wonder how they will make sure that passengers know about these new restrictions.

 

[SS4]

Simplification is bad for the customer.

Agreed. It may be confusing but it's the passenger's best interest to learn the "tricks" that come with many different types. Why should the some of us be forced to pay more simply because others are simply too lazy to look properly? I bet ATOC were rubbing their hands with glee when "simplification" was mentioned.

That being said simplification is not in itself a bad thing, the bad thing is that fare have not been safeguarded which allows a fare rise based simply on changing the name of the ticket.

IMO Chiltern need to take note of what Virgin have done and grant off-peak status to the first and/or second trains of the day.

 

[radamfi]

As I pointed out above I very much imagine Chiltern will change the times from MYB to match Virgins.

If you try to get the East Coast site to offer a journey from Marylebone to Moor Street via Bicester North on 5 Sep it won't allow you to use the Any Permitted £44.30 but it will allow you to use the £25 High Wycombe fare.

 

[hick]

But the ANY PERMITTED SVR (which Virgin controls) is valid any time from MYB!

Virgin controls the price and their own time restrictions but not those of the other TOCs.

 

[bb21]

Virgin controls the price and their own time restrictions but not those of the other TOCs.

Let's imagine that timing restrictions change. Unless the Any Permitted is now more restrictive leaving MYB in the afternoon than the £50 ticket, Chiltern will not be allowed to sell the £50 ticket. If that is the case then I, too, cannot see who really benefits out of this exercise.

 

[hick]

It still doesn't alter the fact that an Any Permitted ticket will cost less than the High Wycombe ticket, with no added benefits.

I don't see who this will benefit at all, unless you can now travel when it was previously restricted, and I fail to see how it's simpler. North of Banbury to London the current options are Anytime, Off-peak and Super Off-peak all with the same restrictions (4E/PU Northbound and CH/PV Southbound). Chiltern's proposal seems to do exactly what they are doing at present!

Yes but the times they are valid will be different! At no time will there be competition between the two any permitted off peak fares.

Some people will pay more, however these people will pay less:

Anyone leaving MYB before 1030 M-F
Anyone leaving MYB 1900 - 2000 M-F

Anyone arriving MYB before 1000 M-F
Anyone arriving MYB 1130 - 1300 M-F

 

[Mojo]

At no time will there be competition between the two any permitted off peak fares.

What does this mean?

Some people will pay more, however these people will pay less:

Anyone leaving MYB before 1030 M-F
Anyone leaving MYB 1900 - 2000 M-F

Anyone arriving MYB before 1000 M-F
Anyone arriving MYB 1130 - 1300 M-F

That isn't simplification! It's changing the times that tickets are valid.

If that's what they have done then why have they lied and said they have made things simpler? When in fact it's pretty simple at present.

 

[radamfi]

If that is the case then I, too, cannot see who really benefits out of this exercise.

Some people will be able to downgrade to a Super Off Peak and thus save money. Those currently buying Chiltern Anytime tickets will also save money. Most Off Peak passengers are, however, being shafted.

 

[yorkie]

The implication is they will restrict the Any Permitted to not allow peak evening travel out of Marylebone.

I wonder how they will make sure that passengers know about these new restrictions.

If so, that is really sneaky and most certainly not more "simple".

They will (or should) lose a lot of ORCATS money for this, as ORCATS should attribute all journeys made during Virgin's 'peak' period to Chiltern as anyone with such a ticket not wishing to pay £ludicrous amounts will take a train from Marylebone during that time, for only a slightly longer journey time (negligible compared to the amount of money Virgin want).

It sounds like Chiltern have made the restrictions more complex, the fares higher, and removed choice. They don't have the guts to admit what they are actually doing so hide behind the "simplification" name. I think passengers know that railway simplification is an absolute con by now though!

 

[bb21]

What also sticks out in my mind is their probable intention for an ORCATS raid. They don't currently receive all the ORCATS revenue on Route High Wycombe tickets as XC and FGW probably take a slice each, whereas they'll receive 100% if re-routed to Chiltern Only tickets, which also appear to be priced higher. I doubt that their real intention is to benefit the passengers.

 

[barrykas]

It sounds like Chiltern have made the restrictions more complex, the fares higher, and removed choice. They don't have the guts to admit what they are actually doing so hide behind the "simplification" name. I think passengers know that railway simplification is an absolute con by now though!

The only fare that will be increased (albeit by a significant amount) is the route High Wycombe Off-Peak Return. And the time restrictions are SIMPLER than at present.

Current restrictions:

Anytime - Unrestricted in both directions
Off-Peak - Valid leaving Marylebone at any time, arriving into Marylebone at or after 10:05.
Super Off-Peak - Valid leaving London Terminals 10:30 - 15:59, and from 20:00 (10:59 - 15:30, and from 20:30, for journeys from Reading); arriving into London Terminals from 13:00 (12:30 for journeys to Reading).

New restrictions:

Anytime - Unchanged
Off-Peak - Unchanged
Super Off-Peak - Not valid to leave London Terminals between 16:00 and 19:00 (inclusive). Arriving into London Terminals from 11:30.

Looking at the version of the Mainline timetable on the NR site to accompany the 89th Supplemental Agreement consultation, the last Super Off-Peak train in the afternoon becomes the 15:37 (currently 15:20) and the first one in the evening becomes 19:15 (currently 20:00). Coming into London, the first one is the 09:55 from Moor Street (currently 11:12 from Snow Hill).

The fares remain route High Wycombe, as now. The "Chiltern Only" versions are a fudge for the mobile phone ticketing app that have "leaked" into other systems.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[hick]

What also sticks out in my mind is their probable intention for an ORCATS raid. They don't currently receive all the ORCATS revenue on Route High Wycombe tickets as XC and FGW probably take a slice each, whereas they'll receive 100% if re-routed to Chiltern Only tickets, which also appear to be priced higher. I doubt that their real intention is to benefit the passengers.

I'm led to believe Route Chiltern tickets are only in the system due to way the tickets for the recent mobile app were implemented

 

[yorkie]

I'm led to believe Route Chiltern tickets are only in the system due to way the tickets for the recent mobile app were implemented

But that refers to existing tickets. What we wanted assurances on, is whether or not the new tickets will continue to be routed High Wycombe or if they will be re-routed as Chiltern Only. Can you confirm what the routeing will be on the new tickets?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The fares remain route High Wycombe, as now. The "Chiltern Only" versions are a fudge for the mobile phone ticketing app that have "leaked" into other systems.

OK, that is good to know.

So, hardly anything has changed, apart from the Off Peak price has gone up, and Chiltern are trying to avoid bad PR for that by making the Super Off Peak a little bit less restrictive, and for that Chiltern are claiming to be doing us all a huge favour?

 

[Paul Kelly]

Well the protected fares on the HIGH WYCOMBE routeing can't be removed due to fares regulation. That will be the current 7DS and SVR I suppose. So it looks like they are going to pull the old FGW/East Coast trick of renaming the (protected) off-peak to super off-peak and whacking up the restrictions to the maximum permitted. Except, very interestingly, I think there is a grey area as to which origin stations they are permitted to apply the afternoon peak restrictions to (other than Marylebone itself).

"Fares regulation also protects certain conditions attached to these
fares. For example, in the case of savers, these are required to be
valid for no less than a month, and to be valid all day Saturday and
Sunday and from no later than 10:30 on any other day. They need not be
valid for any journey beginning between 15:00 and 19:00 on Mondays to
Fridays from London area stations or (when travelling away from
London) stations between London and Reading, Watford, Luton or
Stevenage, inclusive."

So no stations on the Chiltern main line mentioned there. I wonder what "London area stations" means.

 

[barrykas]

So no stations on the Chiltern main line mentioned there. I wonder what "London area stations" means.

Judging by the wording in The Manual (and the printed National Fares Manuals before it), I'd assume it means London Terminals, and possibly the likes of Tottenham Hale/Seven Sisters, Stratford, Vauxhall and Clapham Junction.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[RJ]

The mobile app is a bit iffy, played around with a few tickets and it can offer the wrong route at a price intended for another route.

 

[Smethwickian]

Sadly I would expect to be seeing a lot more of this from operators trying to squeeze a bit more out of off-peak passengers particularly just before or just after the existing peaks.

The issue over 'route Chiltern' or 'route High Wycombe' is, I'm thinking, mainly an issue for people connecting from stations in the West Midlands who might want to use LM, ATW, VT or XC to/from Kidderminster, Smethwick Galton Bridge, Birmingham New Street, Leamington Spa or Banbury.
I presume they'd then have to consider offering 'rte Chiltern + connections' for stations which currently have the full range of 'rte High Wycombe' fares, adding yet another layer onto the plethora of fares between the West Mids area and central London? So much for simplification...

 

[island]

Well that one's easy, routes with &CONNECTIONS are only valid for advances.

 

[bb21]

Well that one's easy, routes with &CONNECTIONS are only valid for advances.

Appears that it is no longer the case. See the document in this thread. Burton on Trent - London Terminals now have SOR and SVR routed "LM AND CONCTIONS".

 

[lev441]

What a shame... After just starting to use Chiltern (regular Birmingham-London traveller) due to the quieter and cheaper journeys compared to virgin, I will now once again be sticking to Virgin and occasionally LM! Are they increasing fares due to Evergreen 3 and the shorter journey times?

 

[General Zod]

There is some good news for passengers who get on at intermediate stations . Prior to the "simplification" High Wycombe - Birmingham Moor St passengers could only purchase the Super Off Peak ( £19.50) ticket for trains due to depart London Marylebone after 11am weekdays. The Super Off Peak return will go up by £0.50 but will be valid on trains as early as the first departure from HWY which is at 06:10.

 

[chiltern_chidg]

Is it just me but is this new fare structure confusing and hard to understand? I don't understand it and I fear that it may confuse passenger's even more.

Matthew

 

[junglejames]

I feel a few people are exagerating. The majority of people from London out for a daytrip to Brum will be leaving in the morning. This means the price has gone down from £33 to £25. Restrictions for super off peak tickets have been eased quite substantially.

Those on day trips to London, arriving shortly after 10am are the only ones to lose out. They have to pay £11 extra, or perhaps £17 extra if the any permitted has evening restrictions added, and they want to leave during peak time (unlikely though, who is daft to travel during peak time if you can help it).

Also, those needing to be in London during peak time see their fare reduced.
So, the majority of people will see their fares reduce. However some will unfortunately see fares rise by £11 or £17.
This isnt perfect (but nothing in the world is perfect), but it is on the whole quite good (which compared to other TOCs, is amazing).
If they could be a bit kinder with the Off peak tickets, and reduce the route wycombe ticket to just below the any permitted (say £44 exactly), and keep the any permitted restrictions the same, then this change would be so stupendously good, its unbelieavable. Unfortunately we only get a good change, instead of an amazing change.

Remember, advance fares are still available apparently, and by the seems of it, most people here only care about advance fares.

Looking at some of the responses here because one ticket type has gone up by £11 is quite astounding. I am quite surprised any of you ever travel with Virgin at all. If Chiltern deserve this response for what they have done here, then Virgin deserve a 100% boycott for what they did with anytime fares.

Also, another way of looking at it. Quality and cost together. Lets say you catch a Chiltern loco hauled service and have to pay an off peak fare of £50. So for being on a train that is 1000 times better, you pay less than £6 more?? Wow, that seems such good value for money its quite rediculous. If they kept it at £33 off peak return, it would have been stealing, surely?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If so, that is really sneaky and most certainly not more "simple"

Agreed, it isnt simplification.

It sounds like Chiltern have made the restrictions more complex, the fares higher, and removed choice.

You get 1.5 out of 3. More complex? Yes, if they really do put more restrictions oto the any permitted off peak. It is more complex.
Fares higher? 50/50. Some fares are higher, some are lower. However because of the easing of restrictions on the super savers, an awful lot more people will be spending less.
Removed choice? Not really. In fact, by adding an extra restriction into the any permitted off peak ticket, and so giving the 2 different off peak tickets different restrictions, they have actually given you more choice. Oh, and by allowing the cheap super off peak tickets to be used out of London first thing in the morning, they have given certain passengers (including the cost sensitive 67 followers on here) an extra choice in what train to catch.


It is annoying that the off peak fare rises so much, and the any permitted gains extra restrictions, and the word 'simplification' is a load of rubbish. But this change definitely isnt bad.

 

[yorkie]

The vast majority of people travel to London in the morning and leave in the afternoon, so the majority are losing out!

Yes it's good for Londoners doing day trips to Birmingham, but this is very much the minority market.

 

[junglejames]

The vast majority of people travel to London in the morning and leave in the afternoon, so the majority are losing out!

Yes it's good for Londoners doing day trips to Birmingham, but this is very much the minority market.

Yes, Into London in the morning peak. That is the majority market. These people are better off.
The shoulder peaks into London are unfortunately worse off, as are those afterwards slightly worse off with the increase in supersaver fares. But overall its 50/50 (I was exagerating before saying the majority were better off)

If we compare this to other TOCs. They just raise fares across the board, and do it astronomically everytime. Chiltern have kept fares reasonable for ages now, and when they do raise some fares (albeit a lot in one go), they help out by reducing peak fares and improving restrictions on the cheapest tickets.
Lets look at the peak time travelling business people. You can either go with Virgin, and pay some astronomical fare, or you could reduce your fare quite substantially, take a little bit longer to get to London (but not much longer), and travel on a much more pleasant train if you catch one of the loco hauleds, which are slowly increasing in number.

Its not perfect, but its nearly as perfect as you could hope for. Especially when you consider the much nicer trains being introduced now as well.
This is a good change, unlike most other operators who nearly always introduce bad changes.

 

[bnm]

And weekend travel?

Prior to May the Super Off Peak Return was £19.50. From September it will be £25 and regulated. So from January 2012 it is likely to rise again. Place your bets on whether or not Chiltern will take the RPI+3% in January!

So just 3 months where the pleasing looking £75/£50/£25 fares structure will be in place.

 

[hick]

And weekend travel?

Prior to May the Super Off Peak Return was £19.50. From September it will be £25 and regulated. So from January 2012 it is likely to rise again. Place your bets on whether or not Chiltern will take the RPI+3% in January!

So just 3 months where the pleasing looking £75/£50/£25 fares structure will be in place.

and yet go back a little further and super off peak wasn't valid all of the day on a Saturday. Some changes are good, some bad.

 

[Zoe]

This is where the 2008 fares simplification doesn't seem to have made things simpler. Until 2008 the regulated fare was a specific ticket, the Saver. The Saver became the Off Peak but the regulation no longer specifically applies to that ticket, now Super Off Peak can be at the regulated price and Off Peak hiked.