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Chiltern Railways - SJP Notice

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SB2

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Hey all, I have tried to Google and have received so many mixed results. Please can you kindly confirm; if you plead guilty and get a conviction. Under the Railway Byelaws (18.1 and 18.2) What does the conviction mean? Will this be a criminal record forever? Will it be spent? Will it appear on checks by US and potential employers?

I have reached out to a solicitor and their fees, plus any potential settlement seem a lot of money. Please can you help me understand which is better to do.

Thanks so much in advance!!
 
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Pushpit

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A byelaw conviction is a criminal record, that comes with a fine, victims' surcharge and various other costs. It will be "spent" after 1 year, at least in terms of most purposes. So for most lines of employment an employer cannot ask about spent convictions and you don't need to tell them about it. Some professions in health care, government service, children, some finance and legal roles, there is a requirement to declare all convictions (and usually cautions too) beyond that 1 year. Having said that, byelaw convictions for fare evasion is towards the bottom of the list in terms of seriousness, particularly as time marches on. People get convictions for traffic offences, drink driving, even the (current) prime minister has two Fixed Penalty Notices.

Other countries, such as the USA and Australia do require convictions to be declared even by tourists. In those cases you may well find yourself not able to take advantage of online ESTAs, ETAs and the like, but will have to apply for a manual visa. They don't need need to stick to the UK's notions of spent and unspent convictions. From the various briefing papers for ETIAS, the new EU system for Third Country Nationals such as the UK, you probably won't have an issue there, but it is vital to answer all questions honestly.

For your case regarding a railcard, there is quite a consensus around your case that Chiltern are not correct in what they are doing. Whether you want to engage a solicitor to fight that case is something only you can decide, but at least in theory someone without a solicitor, but making the correct case and researching the details, should get to the same outcome, a positive outcome from your perspective.
 

island

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Just to add to the above that criminal offences under the Railway Byelaws are what is known as "non-recordable" offences, so they won't appear at all on basic or standard DBS checks (unless convicted at the same time as a recordable offence) and are unlikely to appear on enhanced DBS checks.

The USA does not care about minor fare evasion convictions and they will not stop you using an ESTA.
 

jumble

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Just to add to the above that criminal offences under the Railway Byelaws are what is known as "non-recordable" offences, so they won't appear at all on basic or standard DBS checks (unless convicted at the same time as a recordable offence) and are unlikely to appear on enhanced DBS checks.

The USA does not care about minor fare evasion convictions and they will not stop you using an ESTA.
It is of course absurdly confusing that the US embassy state
You cannot apply for an ESTA visa waiver if you have been arrested (even if the arrest did not result in a criminal conviction) or a criminal record
and the foreign travel government repeat this https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/usa/entry-requirements claim

However the USA CBP agree with you
The traveler must provide, in English, biographical data including name, birth date and passport information. The traveler also must answer VWP eligibility questions regarding communicable diseases, arrests and convictions for certain crimes, past history of visa revocation or deportation and other questions. The traveler will also need their credit card information to pay the associated fees in order to complete the ESTA application.
 

Cloud Strife

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Other countries, such as the USA and Australia do require convictions to be declared even by tourists.

One thing that should be clarified: not all convictions have to be declared in all cases. In the case of the USA, they require you to declare a conviction for "moral turpitude", which is a typical example of the American legal system being over-complicated and bureaucratic. Moral turpitude in their case is quite loosely defined, but a good list is here: https://unlock.org.uk/advice/identi...ce-is-a-crime-involving-moral-turpitude-cimt/

In short, a bylaw offence on the railway is definitely not something that has to be declared to the US.
 

Hadders

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Are you actually being prosecuted, or threatened with prosecution?

While Chiltern are one of the more ‘robust’ train companies to deal with, they do often agree to an out of court settlement to people who co-operate with their investigation and who haven’t come to their attention before.
 

gholamkabuj

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One thing that should be clarified: not all convictions have to be declared in all cases. In the case of the USA, they require you to declare a conviction for "moral turpitude", which is a typical example of the American legal system being over-complicated and bureaucratic. Moral turpitude in their case is quite loosely defined, but a good list is here: https://unlock.org.uk/advice/identi...ce-is-a-crime-involving-moral-turpitude-cimt/

In short, a bylaw offence on the railway is definitely not something that has to be declared to the US.
the very list you shared mentions this:
If you have received a FPN then this is NOT a CIMT. If you have been prosecuted in court then this would be dealt with as fraud and IS a CIMT.
 

AlterEgo

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the very list you shared mentions this:
If you have received a FPN then this is NOT a CIMT. If you have been prosecuted in court then this would be dealt with as fraud and IS a CIMT.
That can’t be correct. Bylaw offences aren’t fraud.
 

pedr

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That can’t be correct. Bylaw offences aren’t fraud.
It is for the US immigration authorities to decide what they consider to be fraud, and they could reasonably decide that where an offence covers a range of culpabilities they want to do their own investigations. Short faring and knowingly travelling with an out of date railcard, for instance, are actually dishonest even if railway companies use offences which don’t require allegations of dishonesty and which also criminalise non-dishonest behaviour. Whether that’s what the US authorities mean is pretty much a guess, though, since the Unlock list is a set of predictions and informed interpretations of the public information, which isn’t at all precise.
 

Cowley

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It is for the US immigration authorities to decide what they consider to be fraud, and they could reasonably decide that where an offence covers a range of culpabilities they want to do their own investigations. Short faring and knowingly travelling with an out of date railcard, for instance, are actually dishonest even if railway companies use offences which don’t require allegations of dishonesty and which also criminalise non-dishonest behaviour. Whether that’s what the US authorities mean is pretty much a guess, though, since the Unlock list is a set of predictions and informed interpretations of the public information, which isn’t at all precise.

I think we’re in danger of getting into areas that aren’t what this section is here for now.

@SB2 - if you want to continue with this thread and specifically the UK side of things, please use the report function below and we’ll reopen it.

Thanks everyone
 
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