Chiltern Railways major improvement proposal

[Stephen Lee]

Well.....One of the major upgrade—Acton-Northolt line and Old Oak Common will make some Chiltern Mainline Services diverted to London Paddington via OOC but some people think Chiltern will divert the trains to OOC instead.
Also if the Birmingham SH Platform 4 got restored i wondered if it’s possible to divert the remaining Moor Street terminated Chiltern Railways service to terminate at Birmingham SH so as to give way for the routes via Bordesley Chord(including Camp Hill Line)to terminate at Birmingham Moor Street

 

[swt_passenger]

Well.....One of the major upgrade—Acton-Northolt line and Old Oak Common will make some Chiltern Mainline Services diverted to London Paddington via OOC but some people think Chiltern will divert the trains to OOC instead.
[…]

There is no published evidence whatsoever for Chiltern returning to Paddington, AFAICT the future track layout won’t allow it, all NR refer to is a separate terminating platform(s). Wherever you’re getting this from, I suggest you’ve misinterpreted it...

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Well.....One of the major upgrade—Acton-Northolt line and Old Oak Common will make some Chiltern Mainline Services diverted to London Paddington via OOC but some people think Chiltern will divert the trains to OOC instead.
Also if the Birmingham SH Platform 4 got restored i wondered if it’s possible to divert the remaining Moor Street terminated Chiltern Railways service to terminate at Birmingham SH so as to give way for the routes via Bordesley Chord(including Camp Hill Line)to terminate at Birmingham Moor Street

It is an aspiration that the Moor Street service will be extended to Snow Hill after platform 4 reopens and the chords are built to Moor Street. Network Rail plans to terminate some chiltern trains around 4 per hour to Old Oak Common Not Paddington.

https://cdn.networkrail.co.uk/wp-co...-East-West-Rail-Strategy-summary-document.pdf (summary here)

Connecting to Old Oak Common Regeneration at Old Oak and Park Royal with 65,000 new jobs and 25,500 new homes 44 Access to High Speed Services Birmingham Curzon Street Manchester Airport Manchester Piccadilly Birmingham Interchange Toton (East Midlands Hub) London Euston Old Oak Common Sheffield Leeds Up to 4 additional trains per hour, with more travel options into London New station at Old Oak Common Old Oak Common Reduced cost and disruption compared to upgrading Marylebone Upgraded route linking the Chilterns with Old Oak Common

 

[Stephen Lee]

It is an aspiration that the Moor Street service will be extended to Snow Hill after platform 4 reopens and the chords are built to Moor Street. Network Rail plans to terminate some chiltern trains around 4 per hour to Old Oak Common Not Paddington.

https://cdn.networkrail.co.uk/wp-co...-East-West-Rail-Strategy-summary-document.pdf (summary here)

Anyway there are plans that Birmingham MS is gonna rebuild Platform 5-6 with Bordesley Chords，below are plans for new trains in BMS according to Wiki:
“two extra trains per hour to Leicester and Derby
two extra commuter services per hour from Kings Norton via the Camp Hill Line
one extra train per hour to Nottingham
one extra train per hour to Hereford via Worcester
one extra train per hour to Cardiff Central
one extra train per hour to Bristol Temple Meads”
I think with space available when Birmingham S.H. Platform 4 got restored so the remaining Moor Street Terminated Chiltern Railway services can move to Snow Hill and restoration of Birmingham MS Platform 5&6，this plan can come true

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Anyway there are plans that Birmingham MS is gonna rebuild Platform 5-6 with Bordesley Chords，below are plans for new trains in BMS according to Wiki:
“two extra trains per hour to Leicester and Derby
two extra commuter services per hour from Kings Norton via the Camp Hill Line
one extra train per hour to Nottingham
one extra train per hour to Hereford via Worcester
one extra train per hour to Cardiff Central
one extra train per hour to Bristol Temple Meads”
I think with space available when Birmingham S.H. Platform 4 got restored so the remaining Moor Street Terminated Chiltern Railway services can move to Snow Hill and restoration of Birmingham MS Platform 5&6，this plan can come true

the plan for Chiltern london terminus is to instead of expanding Marylebone (which will cost £700 Million+) they will run down the old NNML hence why the ventilation shaft was moved to allow re-doubling of the track later all the way to Old Oak Common.

As per wikipedia, Alot of services will be added to moor Street and all London services will be extended to Snow Hill.

 

[The Planner]

Anyway there are plans that Birmingham MS is gonna rebuild Platform 5-6 with Bordesley Chords，below are plans for new trains in BMS according to Wiki:
“two extra trains per hour to Leicester and Derby
two extra commuter services per hour from Kings Norton via the Camp Hill Line
one extra train per hour to Nottingham
one extra train per hour to Hereford via Worcester
one extra train per hour to Cardiff Central
one extra train per hour to Bristol Temple Meads”
I think with space available when Birmingham S.H. Platform 4 got restored so the remaining Moor Street Terminated Chiltern Railway services can move to Snow Hill and restoration of Birmingham MS Platform 5&6，this plan can come true

You need a lot more than the Bordesley chords and extra platforms to deliver all that.

 

[Aictos]

You need a lot more than the Bordesley chords and extra platforms to deliver all that.

As you would know, apart from the aforementioned projects what else is needed?

 

[Stephen Lee]

You need a lot more than the Bordesley chords and extra platforms to deliver all that.

Perhaps Extra Trains ordered by WMR/XC

 

[The Planner]

As you would know, apart from the aforementioned projects what else is needed?

A fair bit between Landor St and Water Orton, the fag packet stuff requires swapping the lines from Up Up Down Down to Up Down Up Down which isnt easy. Kings Norton will need doing in some shape or form too.

 

[Stephen Lee]

Perhaps Extra Trains ordered by WMR/XC

How about this?

 

[JonathanH]

Perhaps Extra Trains ordered by WMR/XC

How about this?

You can procure as many new trains as you like. It is a secondary consideration compared to whether the infrastructure is available in the first place to run them. As 'The Planner' points out, a lot of infrastructure work is required to run trains out of the terminal platforms at Moor Street to anywhere other than the existing destinations.

 

[Aictos]

A fair bit between Landor St and Water Orton, the fag packet stuff requires swapping the lines from Up Up Down Down to Up Down Up Down which isnt easy. Kings Norton will need doing in some shape or form too.

Didn't know it involved a hell of a lot more then just chords and extra platforms, thanks for the insight.

 

[Energy]

Perhaps Extra Trains ordered by WMR/XC

How would more trains ordered by WMR and XC affect the limited capacity are Marylebone when neither XC nor WMR (excluding LNWR which goes to a different terminus anyway and is a different brand) go to London?

 

[anthony263]

Extra service to Cardiff perhaps get tfw to extend their Cheltenham Cheltenham service to Birmingham moor street

 

[Stephen Lee]

Extra service to Cardiff perhaps get tfw to extend their Cheltenham Cheltenham service to Birmingham moor street

I think XC should start a Birmingham Moor Street-Cardiff service and extend it to Swansea.

How would more trains ordered by WMR and XC affect the limited capacity are Marylebone when neither XC nor WMR (excluding LNWR which goes to a different terminus anyway and is a different brand) go to London?

No i am not saying about London Marylebone I am saying Birmingham Moor Street!

 

[markymark2000]

I would like to see Chiltern extend more services through Birmingham in the off peak. This would hopefully get people into London from closer to their home to save people changing in the busy Birmingham interchanges. That would also free up space at either Snow Hill or Moor Street with less terminating trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would like to see Chiltern extend more services through Birmingham in the off peak. This would hopefully get people into London from closer to their home to save people changing in the busy Birmingham interchanges. That would also free up space at either Snow Hill or Moor Street with less terminating trains.

I'd like Chiltern to stop faffing about in the IC market and start concentrating on their primary market, the commuters. Same for LNR.

I don't mind the extra incidental traffic, but it's often at the expense of commuters.

 

[Meerkat]

I'd like Chiltern to stop faffing about in the IC market and start concentrating on their primary market, the commuters. Same for LNR.

I don't mind the extra incidental traffic, but it's often at the expense of commuters.

Will that happen after HS2 opens? WCML will be the cheaper/slower option if HS2 isn’t dropping cheap enough off peak tickets. Only commuters/regional will be left for Chiltern?
Maybe even chop Chiltern up. Snow Hill - Leamington to WMT and leave Chiltern with just London to Banbury, reducing pressure on the line in the middle.
Twenty year vertically integrated DBO franchise - electrify all Chiltern, but stop at Banbury.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Will that happen after HS2 opens? WCML will be the cheaper/slower option if HS2 isn’t dropping cheap enough off peak tickets. Only commuters/regional will be left for Chiltern?
Maybe even chop Chiltern up. Snow Hill - Leamington to WMT and leave Chiltern with just London to Banbury, reducing pressure on the line in the middle.
Twenty year vertically integrated DBO franchise - electrify all Chiltern, but stop at Banbury.

i think just leave it as it provides useful links between birmingham, High Wycombe, Banbury and princes Risborough. It will likely remain but with more stops.

 

[Meerkat]

i think just leave it as it provides useful links between birmingham, High Wycombe, Banbury and princes Risborough. It will likely remain but with more stops.

It depends whether those useful links use capacity that could be used by more useful things. Freeing up space between Banbury and Leamington for more Oxford-Birmingham services and Container trains.

 

[Aictos]

i think just leave it as it provides useful links between birmingham, High Wycombe, Banbury and princes Risborough. It will likely remain but with more stops.

It also gives a alternative route for those travelling between London and Birmingham eg when the WCML has issues you usually find ticket acceptance in place on the Chiltern Mainline and vice versa so cutting what is a useful service serves no purpose and should be opposed at all points.

Chiltern themselves have said they can never compete with Virgin Trains as it was at the time so instead concentrate on what passengers want eg seats that line up with windows etc.

More in this article: https://www.railmagazine.com/operations/franchises/a-different-class

Personally I think Chiltern should concentrate on their core market but also look at the possibility of ensuring all Birmingham services are loco hauled if viable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Will that happen after HS2 opens? WCML will be the cheaper/slower option if HS2 isn’t dropping cheap enough off peak tickets. Only commuters/regional will be left for Chiltern?
Maybe even chop Chiltern up. Snow Hill - Leamington to WMT and leave Chiltern with just London to Banbury, reducing pressure on the line in the middle.
Twenty year vertically integrated DBO franchise - electrify all Chiltern, but stop at Banbury.

Quite possibly so. I don't see the point in chopping it up, but the timetable needs to primarily serve commuters, which will mean fewer "crack expresses" and more semifasts. Obviously it's a two-track railway, but something more like the LNR timetable minus the Trent Valley would be appropriate in my view.

 

[Energy]

Personally I think Chiltern should concentrate on their core market but also look at the possibility of ensuring all Birmingham services are loco hauled if viable.

Personally I would focus on making more of the Oxford services locohauled, it seems a little strange to see 2 car 168s on that route, then focus on the other London to Birmingham services being loco hauled or ~6 car 168s.

 

[Ianno87]

I would like to see Chiltern extend more services through Birmingham in the off peak. This would hopefully get people into London from closer to their home to save people changing in the busy Birmingham interchanges. That would also free up space at either Snow Hill or Moor Street with less terminating trains.

Will only work if the Snow Hill stopping services are cut back to compensate.

I'd argue the 'Metro' nature of the Snow Hill lines works well and should be largely left alone.

If anything, the through Chiltern workings may lose viability peak or off-peak given the ease of hopping off at Moor Street for an HS2 train to Euston (saving well over an hour).

Better to give people regular, Metro connections into central Birmingham and Fast HS2 trains than off-pattern through trains that only benefit the minority.

 

[si404]

If anything, the through Chiltern workings may lose viability peak or off-peak given the ease of hopping off at Moor Street for an HS2 train to Euston (saving well over an hour).

Aren't the peak workings somewhat about boosting capacity on the suburban route west of Birmingham as well as providing token direct London trains?

 

[The Planner]

It depends whether those useful links use capacity that could be used by more useful things. Freeing up space between Banbury and Leamington for more Oxford-Birmingham services and Container trains.

Banbury to Birmingham is now being seen as a growth market so that flow could concievably increase and would probably be better suited to Chiltern.

 

[Meerkat]

Banbury to Birmingham is now being seen as a growth market so that flow could concievably increase and would probably be better suited to Chiltern.

You are in the know but wouldn’t it be better served by improving Oxford to Birmingham, via Banbury? Maybe with the idea of focusing more on Swindon-Oxford-Birmingham once HS2 steals most of the XC traffic from Reading southward.

 

[si404]

You are in the know but wouldn’t it be better served by improving Oxford to Birmingham, via Banbury?

You'd still want Banbury-London though, and Wycombe-Birmingham.

 

[Meerkat]

You'd still want Banbury-London though, and Wycombe-Birmingham.

I was terminating Chiltern at Banbury
Why Wycombe-Birmingham? Is it really that important a market they can’t just change at Banbury?

 

[Elecman]

Twenty year vertically integrated DBO franchise - electrify all Chiltern, but stop at Banbury.

I’d agree with a 20 year franchise with an Evergreen 4 type arrangement covering electrification, with a suitable reduction in track access charges over the period of the franchise to recover the upfront electrification costs thus keeping the costs out the Treasuries dead hand on NR Enhancements and the final infrastructure handed over to NR on completion, rather than an vertically integrated DBO franchise