You have to carry your phone everywhere and a smartphone is obviously vulnerable to theft. If you pick up a paper ticket you can store it somewhere safe in the house, or pick it up just before travel. So less chance of losing a paper ticket.
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Chiltern Railways m-ticket purchased, phone stolen
- Thread starter shinkansen1966
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
New technology should not introduce new problems, like the possibility of a battery dying/phone crashing/app not loading/phone being stolen. These should be considered at the design stages; namely being able to log in with your secure credentials and obtain a replacement ticket. I can re-print my airline e-ticket as many times as I want, as well as my boarding card.
Sure, you COULD do it the way that it has been done, especially if you're forced to because you know that some staff members won't be able to actually verify and 'kill' the ticket. If so, you could say 'well tough' but that's a stupid way to try and entice people to embrace new technology, given many people still won't even use a TVM!
In fact, it's a sure-fire way to make most people not try it, or be stung once and never use it again - and tell all of their friends and family to steer clear. A major fail for the industry and the company offering the service.
If it won an award, it would make a mockery of the judging process, especially if the TOCs are saying they can change the T&Cs at any time without notice - which it has been suggested would be totally unenforceable.
My job is technology. I use a multitude of operating systems and devices with keyboards, touchscreens and so on - and I also use loads of different apps. My first job was a play-tester for a games company, where my job was to play things to break them. I've worked with companies that do proper usability testing, using eye-tracking cameras that can show where people look first and how they look around a web page. Then there are focus groups, studies and so on. All the while, people should look at ways to break the system, ways to defraud the system and so on (before someone else does it).
OR, you come up with something cheap and cheerful that puts people off before someone can come in and do it right. Sometimes you don't introduce new technology until it's perfect. Some might even say that about the Oyster (non-ITSO) card system, even though I doubt anyone is against smartcards for travel.
Sure, you COULD do it the way that it has been done, especially if you're forced to because you know that some staff members won't be able to actually verify and 'kill' the ticket. If so, you could say 'well tough' but that's a stupid way to try and entice people to embrace new technology, given many people still won't even use a TVM!
In fact, it's a sure-fire way to make most people not try it, or be stung once and never use it again - and tell all of their friends and family to steer clear. A major fail for the industry and the company offering the service.
If it won an award, it would make a mockery of the judging process, especially if the TOCs are saying they can change the T&Cs at any time without notice - which it has been suggested would be totally unenforceable.
My job is technology. I use a multitude of operating systems and devices with keyboards, touchscreens and so on - and I also use loads of different apps. My first job was a play-tester for a games company, where my job was to play things to break them. I've worked with companies that do proper usability testing, using eye-tracking cameras that can show where people look first and how they look around a web page. Then there are focus groups, studies and so on. All the while, people should look at ways to break the system, ways to defraud the system and so on (before someone else does it).
OR, you come up with something cheap and cheerful that puts people off before someone can come in and do it right. Sometimes you don't introduce new technology until it's perfect. Some might even say that about the Oyster (non-ITSO) card system, even though I doubt anyone is against smartcards for travel.
Last edited:
Now that's what I find puzzling. The rail companies obviously want to encourage people to use electronic purchasing, whether it's via TVM's, the internet or new technologies. Even if it;s only so they can close ticket offices to save money!
So why are they not making these things more attractive to users?
So why are they not making these things more attractive to users?
Solent&Wessex
Established Member
- Joined
- 9 Jul 2009
- Messages
- 2,749
Yes, but you cannot use it more than once because once you have checked in / boarded or whatever else you do, you cannot do it again using the same ticket.
When you board a bus or plane or whatever it is static. Ticket checking is done on trains as it is moving. The chances of getting a suitably consistent phone signal to be able to connect some machine to a live database to "cancel" the ticket - as things stand at the moment -is negligible.
Add to this the already stated desire of a large chunk of the population to find every way possible to avoid paying the correct fare then you have to make the system as robust as possible to that issue.
If you had an Anytime ticket as an m-ticket on multiple phones, what is to stop you using one on your phone on one train and your mate using the same Anytime ticket on another train right behind?
I don't see why. Assuming people don't loose it there isn't a problem.
Well this last bit is true. I don't see the need to introduce new technology until such time as it can be used properly. However, lots (but not all) of this is down to Daft stipulating these things must be done within the life of a short franchise running at different timescales to another franchise which is also required to do it...
In fact I personally don't see why it is necessary at all. Stick to paper tickets for longer journeys and have smartcards etc for shorter local journeys. Easier to administer, easier to control, easier to manage, and crucially less open to fraud and abuse. It's hard enough to get people to travel on the correct train when they have a bit of card that says "Booked Train Only" on it and the time of a train, or carry their railcard with them, or travel the route printed on their ticket, or in many cases actually pay at all. The last thing we need is another way of scamming the system or something which gives grounds for more ticketing disputes.
A connected device should be able to use a connection when it exists and cache/queue things, so data would be pushed to it that contains the valid tickets that have been sold. The machine can then verify the ticket and push back the 'kill' code, which may not be instant but should still be within a matter of minutes.
And, for that individual terminal, it is recorded as 'used'. If there's just one guard on the train, that's good enough. If there was more than one, and the guard has a terminal connected to the train Wi-Fi system, it could have already sent the data to be synced with any other onboard staff.
This isn't science fiction stuff - it's basic syncing of data in a cloud based environment that exists today and I've been using for some time. Look at Google, BlackBerry, Dropbox etc etc.
Connected devices will have to come and they'll bring loads of advantages, from staff communication (some use a BlackBerry for this, so that's a start) to being able to check information in real-time for passengers. If a train has Wi-Fi, there's far less chance of the device being disconnected for any length of time. If stuck in a tunnel with no coverage, I doubt someone else will board with a cloned ticket!
But if you don't work towards this, then there's an inherent security risk.
If the app uses a QR code, can I just add one more thing that the developer may not have considered? Give me a QR code and I can scan it in a few seconds and tell you what the data contains.
Give me another few seconds and I will go to one of many websites and enter that exact code. It will give me a hi-res scalable QR code with that code, which will be identical. Hey presto; I've cloned the QR code. I can now save that as an image and put it on another phone.
So, this high-security system has been thwarted anyway. So, a system to validate the code and kill it is even more important now. Imagine being able to buy an ALR this way - then sharing the code with loads of other people who all chip in?
Given enough time, I'm sure we could all bash heads together and find other ways to rip the system off - and then there's the other method of simply hacking the app to export the data.
As I said, and you agreed, you need to get things perfect to begin with. It's a step in the right direction for sure, but not good enough yet.
Remember when the music industry modified the CD format to add protection that rendered some CD's as unplayable on many systems (the key to noticing was that they couldn't print the CD logo on anything). That was also thwarted by outputting the music via line out and re-recording it. Any decent system could do so with minimal loss. Another system that hadn't been thought through properly - and did the industry a lot of damage at the time in negative publicity. I bet the industry is very keen to have that erased from history!
Emma_Gascoigne
New Member
- Joined
- 29 Sep 2011
- Messages
- 2
We will sort it out if your phone is stolen. I am very sorry that you have had a problem with this.
We're very proud of our app and obviously want it to be simple and easy for you to use.
Let us know if you have any other feedback/issues.
Emma Gacoigne
Chiltern Railways
press@chilternrailways.co.uk
Not if you're flying Ryanair!
Public perception is king.
It's clear that the OP has made numerous attempts to resolve the issue through standard channels and Chiltern have referred to specifically designed clauses in their T+Cs to justify not giving a refund.
I still think the problem lies with the Masabi system.
Can any show what an M-ticket looks like on screen?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And having done some googleing, it looks like a QR code, is there any more to it?
If its a QR code then your mates don't even need a phone, you could just print it out for them!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And having done some googleing, it looks like a QR code, is there any more to it?
If its a QR code then your mates don't even need a phone, you could just print it out for them!
Yes it looks like a QR code but the ones I can see on google aren't - I suspect they're something proprietary but similar
Here is a screenshot of the sample m-ticket as shown on the Chiltern app.
Attachments
Yes, that's like the ones I saw. Looks a bit like a QR code but isn't.
LondonJohn
Member
So does this mean that there is a happy ending to the story then ?
When I travelled on the first M tickets with Chiltern this was in the days of when barcodes only worked on some phones and my text always came through as some numbers a reference and and the journey details.
On the one occasion that my battery had run out en route, the RPI at Marylebone just typed my mobile number into a device and verified that the ticket was there.
Also on the topic of reuse, the Vienna City Airport Train (CAT) does print at home tickets and the on train conductor scanned something over the barcode that shows when the ticket had been used. I really dont see why this should be difficult as all the print at home tickets that you get do say that once this barcode is used it invalidates further copies so if you do buy an anytime ticket on it and you are foolish enough to copy it then you risk someone using it before you.
Not flown with them for some time, so I didn't realise that. Still, I hope we don't get to see them as a benchmark!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It looks like a variant, but must still be easily readable - and easy to duplicate, even if it's just from a photo of the screen!
hairyhandedfool
Established Member
- Joined
- 14 Apr 2008
- Messages
- 8,837
Public perception is king.
It's clear that the OP has made numerous attempts to resolve the issue through standard channels and Chiltern have referred to specifically designed clauses in their T+Cs to justify not giving a refund....
Some days I realise why some rail staff appear to have an attitude towards the public. This is one of those days.
Lets be fair here, Emma didn't have to offer to help out, she didn't even have to post on the forum, and yet that is the first reply she gets?
I think it is great that she is willing to help out in this situation, regardless of what image it does or does not give the company.
She's being helpful, agreed. But it seems that if the OP had not posted on here no-one would have offered to help - he'd contacted the company several times.
I'm passing no judgement on whether a refund is justified.
Precisely. Sometimes you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't.
All that matters is that the OP may well now get the response he wants (and perhaps Chiltern will take onboard the feedback here about the app) - surely that's a good thing?
All that matters is that the OP may well now get the response he wants (and perhaps Chiltern will take onboard the feedback here about the app) - surely that's a good thing?
- Joined
- 21 Jan 2010
- Messages
- 5,582
Slightly off topic, but I have received an email from First Hull trains as I am on their mailing list, this is what it contains:
sourced http://firsthulltrains.createsend5....E136B4D89CE6/41F07F74F325754C948D468F162BC46E
TP
sourced http://firsthulltrains.createsend5....E136B4D89CE6/41F07F74F325754C948D468F162BC46E
TP
shinkansen1966
Member
Thank you for your response. Called Chiltern Railways immediately after my iPhone was stolen. Chiltern Railways were not able to refund or replace m-ticket on stolen iPhone. On Sunday, had a replacement iPhone and re-installed Chiltern Railways m-ticket app. Called Chiltern Railways again who said they were unable to replace or refund m-ticket, nor were Chiltern Railways able to migrate m-ticket from stolen phone to new identical replacement iPhone.
So to make my journey, I've had to buy a new ticket for the same trip all over again. This time around, I've opted for a paper ticket, which in my opinion is more secure than an m-ticket.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Let me guess: another app which won't allow you to transfer a mobile ticket from one phone to another. I shall stick to paper tickets.
LondonJohn
Member
Why don't you email Emma to see if they can refund the replacement ticket ?
shinkansen1966
Member
I have.
Among the three organisaton I've contacted: Chiltern Railways, Masabi and Mobile Marketing Magazine, I'd say Masabi have given me the best repsonse.
Chiltern Railways answer 'it's your loss, deal with it'
Mobile Marketing 'we'll see what Chiltern Railways have to say'
Masabi 'apparently, your first person for this to happen to, we'll sort it out'
I can believe that, but surely in their testing they must have worked out people can lose phones, batteries can die, etc. etc.!
LondonJohn
Member
Interesting. Are Chiltern just trying to say they want to help by posting on a website then washing their hands of you ?
Just had a look on the Masabi website. It says this about security:
"Copied mTickets can be detected using a central validation database."
"Readable mTickets feature animated colour signatures that change over time to alert inspectors to fraudulent or copied tickets. They must also be activated before the journey, which marks them as used, so that they cannot be used again."
So I would hope it is not beyond the ability of the developers and TOCs to find a means whereby a valid ticket can be legitimately recovered onto an alternative device...?
"Copied mTickets can be detected using a central validation database."
"Readable mTickets feature animated colour signatures that change over time to alert inspectors to fraudulent or copied tickets. They must also be activated before the journey, which marks them as used, so that they cannot be used again."
So I would hope it is not beyond the ability of the developers and TOCs to find a means whereby a valid ticket can be legitimately recovered onto an alternative device...?
shinkansen1966
Member
Not yet.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Masabi called me this afternoon. As recompense, they're going to give me one ticket allowing travel on Chiltern Railways.
I asked if they were going to allow m-tickets to be migrated from one phone to another. They said they were thinking about it.
Also suggested that m-tickets would be more appealing and more secure if they were like print-at-home tickets and you'd show credit card of purchase in conjunction with m-ticket. They said some TOCs do this, but Chiltern Railways weren't going to.
Last edited:
LexyBoy
Established Member
How does this work regarding break of journey if an Anytime m-ticket is held? It also sounds like a further complication compared to paper tickets.
I'm not against mobile ticketing / smartcards per se, but getting TOCs to set up their own systems is a terrible idea and will only result in more TOC-specific fares, confusion and inconsistent ticketing systems.
Oyster is great because it works out the best fare for your journeys as you make them. Smartcard systems being rolled out on buses and (now) trains are being marketed as a modern, clever system when in fact they are just traditional tickets stored on a new medium, which is a total waste IMO. If we must have m-tickets, why not just use them for Advance tickets where the guard's scanner can keep a list of ticket validities for the day, downloaded first thing in the morning.
Touch-in, touch-out smartcards are very useful in the sense that your fare is calculated at the end of your journey and you don't ever need to buy a ticket ever again if you have automatic reload. But loading on a regular single/return ticket onto a smartcard isn't that useful.
- Status