Chiltern Rail fare dodging and possible prosecution - can I request cctv

[LokiZozz]

Hello. If anyone could help, we would be everso grateful. My son tapped his card at an Amersham (TFL) but the next train was a main line so jumped on that and bought a ticket as he was getting off the train. It wouldn't let him through the gate so he asked the guy at the ticket office who accused him of fare dodging and said he would check the camera at Amersham. He was gone for such a short time, there was no way he checked. Plus my lad was wearing a distinctive sweatshirt so easy to spot. Details were taken and my lad took a number of trains to the coast (all tickets are on trainline and debit card for TFL - in fact he probably paid twice as made another tube journey so they charged him from Amersham!)

He got a letter saying that he hadn't paid and there were other offences. We replied with his version of events and evidence and asked what the other offences were. We have today received a letter saying he was changed by an inspector then bought a ticket. That's not correct as you can't get through the gates at Marylebone without a ticket so why try? There are 2 other occasions where they said it was a short ticket (I think this is because we have a main line station in our village but rarely use it as Amersham is cheaper)

We have 14 days to reply otherwise they will issued a summons. My son is in the Forces and just cannot get a criminal record. I am thinking of hiring a solicitor but his wages are rubbish and although he should've brought the ticket before he got the train, he definitely bought it before he went to the ticket office. If I phone Fare's Recovery and Prosecution Office tomorrow, do you think they will have me have a copy of the cctv which will prove he got on where he said he did and that we went to the ticket office and wasn't stopped by an inspector?

Any help will be appreciated as we are worried sick.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Not wanting to seem harsh, but this is why we prefer the involved party to post themselves, rather than through a third party, as you appear to be missing key parts of the account.

The first point to be aware of is that Oyster/contactless are valid on Chiltern services between Amersham and Marylebone, so your son seems to have dug himself into a hole unnecessarily, as he should have been able to tap out at Marylebone and go straight through (subject to having sufficient money on the card if it was Oyster)...unless he was using a pass with no National Rail validity, such as a TfL Bus Operator or Bus Operator Nominee pass, or a Police Oyster card.

Given the conversation he's reported to have had at the Ticket Office, I'm going to hazard a guess that the ticket he purchased on Trainline was from Harrow-on-the-Hill to Marylebone, as this is a common occurrence (along with Wembley Stadium for trains from the High Wycombe line) for those trying to get through the barriers as cheaply as possible, and that's why he was stopped.

With regards to the CCTV footage, Amersham station is operated by London Underground. As such, Chiltern wouldn't have immediate access to it like they would for their own stations. You can attempt to request CCTV footage by making a Subject Access Request but it's unlikely to succeed if the event was more than 14 days ago, as they have a short retention period.

 

[LokiZozz]

Thanks for your info. Because of his particular job, this is going to fall on me to sort. He is unavailable for 4 weeks and by the time is is around, it'll end in an application for the issue of a summons. He was using his debit card to tap out at Amersham because he was originally going to get the tube, then got the mainline and didn't think he could use his debit card at Marylebone so bought a ticket via trainline from Amersham. To be honest, I also didn't know you can use a debit card and have always used trainline. We both need to get with the times by the sound of it. Ok, so he should have bought his ticket before getting on the train but he didn't, he bought it on the train. The ticket didn't work at the barrier so he went to the ticket office and at no point was he stopped by a ticket inspector. He used his Forces Railcard discount which is also in date.

Think we will just get a solicitor. The only explanation we can think of is when asked where is was travelling from he said Great Missenden the corrected himself to Amersham (he travels a lot from both). I took him to Amersham and I'm sure there is a way of proving he tapped out with this debit card. Thanks anyway

 

[londonbridge]

I’m a little confused I’m afraid. If I’m reading the post correctly the journey was from Amersham to Marylebone? And he tapped a card at Amersham? What type of card was it? Was it a contactless bank card?

The first train was a mainline train so he boarded and bought another ticket whilst on the train. But as CyrusWuff says, contactless (assuming it was a contactless card) is valid on the Chiltern mainline trains from Amersham to Marylebone so I don’t understand why he thought he needed to buy another ticket? To advise further we need to know exactly what type of card he tapped in with at Amersham and what ticket he purchased whilst on board the train.

 

[MikeWh]

Some questions.

Was he charged an incomplete journey after touching in at Amersham?
Has he had that refunded? If not, then although he didn't show it, he did have a valid authority to travel, and TfL can add the touch out at Marylebone to make it a full journey. Depending on the other issues, it may be possible to argue confusion and ask them to consider dropping that part of the case.

Can you outline the full details of journeys made and the ones they are saying are a problem?

 

[Kilopylae]

But as CyrusWuff says, contactless (assuming it was a contactless card) is valid on the Chiltern mainline trains from Amersham to Marylebone so I don’t understand why he thought he needed to buy another ticket?

Contactless is indeed valid on Chiltern trains from Amersham to Marylebone.

But this is not a particularly eccentric misunderstanding. It is easy to see how someone might assume that contactless applies only to TfL services. Many of my friends are surprised to learn they can tap in and out of Southeastern metro, for example.

 

[LokiZozz]

Some questions.

Was he charged an incomplete journey after touching in at Amersham?
Has he had that refunded? If not, then although he didn't show it, he did have a valid authority to travel, and TfL can add the touch out at Marylebone to make it a full journey. Depending on the other issues, it may be possible to argue confusion and ask them to consider dropping that part of the case.

Can you outline the full details of journeys made and the ones they are saying are a problem?

The letter states "it has been reported that when seeing the Inspector of exiting the train you then did purchase a ticket on your phone.......As a result any ticket purchase after being challenged is not valid for that journey and a report can still be submitted for prosecution." "when asked to show a valid ticket, it is alleged that you failed to do so and you also failed to pay the appropriate fare. This left the inspector no alternative but to report the incident". We have the ticket receipt. He showed the ticket and wasn't asked to pay the appropriate fare as he had a ticket.

The other journeys - one from Amersham to Marylebone and one the next day, the other way. He has receipts for both. The only explanation is, they think he came from Great Missenden (no gates or barriers). It's just one stop. We live nearer Missenden but he mainly goes from Amersham as there are more options for trains.

He has two amounts charged on TFL for that day £1.90 and £7.50 - he went onto Paddington via the tube so that amount looks like they charged him from Amersham. The lad paid twice.

 

[Kilopylae]

If TfL has charged your son for a journey from Amersham to Paddington, then showing this to Chiltern should be sufficient to make this go away. Evidently, he has paid for his journey.

 

[MikeWh]

The other journeys - one from Amersham to Marylebone and one the next day, the other way. He has receipts for both. The only explanation is, they think he came from Great Missenden (no gates or barriers). It's just one stop. We live nearer Missenden but he mainly goes from Amersham as there are more options for trains.

I'm troubled by this part. Are they offering any evidence that he boarded or allighted at Great Missenden? How does he get to/from Amersham? Can he actually prove that he did (bus ticket, car park charge, etc).

He has two amounts charged on TFL for that day £1.90 and £7.50 - he went onto Paddington via the tube so that amount looks like they charged him from Amersham. The lad paid twice.

Have you got access to his journey history? Neither of those amounts make sense. An incomplete journey would be either £9.40 (if at peak times) or £6.40. Marylebone LU to Paddington LU would be £2.80 peak or £2.70 off-peak.

Can you upload copies of the letter he's been sent (with personal details redacted)?

 

[AlterEgo]

If the son is in the RAF and presented his Form 90 they may also suspect he boarded at Wendover. I think it’s important we bring some focus onto the questions @MikeWh asks because this will be crucial to determining whether his fare was in fact paid.

 

[island]

This appears to be a ghastly mess caused by an incorrect belief that contactless wasn't valid on Chiltern.

I would hope that on submission of a journey history showing the touch-in at Amersham and perhaps getting TfL to correct the touch-out, that this incident could be disposed of. It doesn't appear to me that any offences were committed.

Then there are the "2 other occasions". On those occasions, where did he buy a ticket from and to?

 

[WesternLancer]

Hello. If anyone could help, we would be everso grateful. My son tapped his card at an Amersham (TFL) but the next train was a main line so jumped on that and bought a ticket as he was getting off the train. It wouldn't let him through the gate so he asked the guy at the ticket office who accused him of fare dodging and said he would check the camera at Amersham. He was gone for such a short time, there was no way he checked. Plus my lad was wearing a distinctive sweatshirt so easy to spot. Details were taken and my lad took a number of trains to the coast (all tickets are on trainline and debit card for TFL - in fact he probably paid twice as made another tube journey so they charged him from Amersham!)

He got a letter saying that he hadn't paid and there were other offences. We replied with his version of events and evidence and asked what the other offences were. We have today received a letter saying he was changed by an inspector then bought a ticket. That's not correct as you can't get through the gates at Marylebone without a ticket so why try? There are 2 other occasions where they said it was a short ticket (I think this is because we have a main line station in our village but rarely use it as Amersham is cheaper)

We have 14 days to reply otherwise they will issued a summons. My son is in the Forces and just cannot get a criminal record. I am thinking of hiring a solicitor but his wages are rubbish and although he should've brought the ticket before he got the train, he definitely bought it before he went to the ticket office. If I phone Fare's Recovery and Prosecution Office tomorrow, do you think they will have me have a copy of the cctv which will prove he got on where he said he did and that we went to the ticket office and wasn't stopped by an inspector?

Any help will be appreciated as we are worried sick.

Hi - if you (or maybe even your son) are able to share a bit more info and answer the questions some of the experts are posing here there seems a good chance that we can help you (in reality your son) respond appropriately to Chiltern / TIL etc to get this matter resolved and the case dropped.

But obv people will need the exact facts to help tell you what needs to be put in any letter to the railway company of their agents. The facts will also help people explain if that is not going to be possible, or how best to minimise the problems and hopefully avoid court if at all possible.

Whilst I am not saying that people who serve in the armed forces are not above making errors / genuine or otherwise, or commit offences, I think anyone on this forum would be happy to do their best to help someone who has elected to serve their country by joining the armed forces.

In any case - good luck with things.

 

[LokiZozz]

Hi - if you (or maybe even your son) are able to share a bit more info and answer the questions some of the experts are posing here there seems a good chance that we can help you (in reality your son) respond appropriately to Chiltern / TIL etc to get this matter resolved and the case dropped.

But obv people will need the exact facts to help tell you what needs to be put in any letter to the railway company of their agents. The facts will also help people explain if that is not going to be possible, or how best to minimise the problems and hopefully avoid court if at all possible.

Whilst I am not saying that people who serve in the armed forces are not above making errors / genuine or otherwise, or commit offences, I think anyone on this forum would be happy to do their best to help someone who has elected to serve their country by joining the armed forces.

In any case - good luck with things.

Hi. We aren't too concerned about the TFL payment although if I can get my hands on his debit card info then I can fill out a form requesting all journey info. Not sure I can achieve this before the time limit as stated in the second letter. If I can prove he actually went from Amersham then that's a start. I've got 10s of messages between us sorting out whether I'm delivering him/collectin He has 3 tickets for all 3 journeys. I remember him telling about the incident on the day because he was really cross about being accused of this when he was the one who went to the office and the fact, that the chap clearly had not looked at any cctv. I'd dropped him at Amersham and he was wearing a tri colour sweatshirt which you couldn't miss. His story has not changed between now and then. Regardless of this, it's one person's word against another. Assuming my lad is in the wrong (and he was because he should've bought a ticket BEFORE he got on the train or better still, just tapped his debit card) then I am going to try to speak to the author of the letter which I'm guessing will be a waste of time. Then we will write another letter with receipts for the other 2 journeys, which I'm also assuming will be fruitless. So my main question is, do we hire a solictor? If so, I need to do that this week. If it was me, I'd go to court and argue my case but he can't risk it in case he is found guilty which could be catastrophic for his career if he has a criminal record.

I really appreciate the help everyone is trying to give, I really do.

 

[cocoiadrop]

I can get my hands on his debit card info then I can fill out a form requesting all journey info.

Get him to login to (or create) an account at https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/contactless-and-oyster-account using the debit card info and the TfL contactless journey history should be available immediately.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi. We aren't too concerned about the TFL payment although if I can get my hands on his debit card info then I can fill out a form requesting all journey info. Not sure I can achieve this before the time limit as stated in the second letter. If I can prove he actually went from Amersham then that's a start. I've got 10s of messages between us sorting out whether I'm delivering him/collectin He has 3 tickets for all 3 journeys. I remember him telling about the incident on the day because he was really cross about being accused of this when he was the one who went to the office and the fact, that the chap clearly had not looked at any cctv. I'd dropped him at Amersham and he was wearing a tri colour sweatshirt which you couldn't miss. His story has not changed between now and then. Regardless of this, it's one person's word against another. Assuming my lad is in the wrong (and he was because he should've bought a ticket BEFORE he got on the train or better still, just tapped his debit card) then I am going to try to speak to the author of the letter which I'm guessing will be a waste of time. Then we will write another letter with receipts for the other 2 journeys, which I'm also assuming will be fruitless. So my main question is, do we hire a solictor? If so, I need to do that this week. If it was me, I'd go to court and argue my case but he can't risk it in case he is found guilty which could be catastrophic for his career if he has a criminal record.

I really appreciate the help everyone is trying to give, I really do.

Thanks for uploading the letters

Firstly I would say forget about the CCTV as its probably been deleted, but if you want to get it then your son needs to request access to it. Or provide you with a signed written authority to act on his behalf. But I doubt the CCTV will be the key to sorting this anyway. I suspect it's a distraction. But ask for it if you like but in the meantime of waiting for it focus on other steps to resolve this

Secondly* - your son should be able to register on line to get access to the journey info with his bank card I would think. Get that done and I assume that you can instantly see what travel was paid for with that card. An ex[pert of TfL fares will be able to confirm if what I say on this point is correct.

*edit: I see post #14 explains what you need to do to get that info asap (or your son needs to do)

 

[AlterEgo]

I’m very confused as to their reasoning that the journeys were “short”. What evidence do they have to make that accusation?

 

[Haywain]

We aren't too concerned about the TFL payment although if I can get my hands on his debit card info then I can fill out a form requesting all journey info.

You should be concerned about this as it provides evidence to support the claim about where your son joined the train, and provides evidence that he had taken steps to pay a fare. If the card used is registered on the TfL Oyster website you would then be able to see the journey history and, if there is an incomplete journey, take action to add a touch out at Marylebone which would pay the fare for the journey taken.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jun 2023 ==

I’m very confused as to their reasoning that the journeys were “short”. What evidence do they have to make that accusation?

That the train appears to have been boarded at Amersham without being in possession of a ticket, I guess, strongly suggesting that it had been boarded elsewhere. The ticket for 22 January on the printout has a ToD collection reference so was, presumably, uncollected at the time of approaching the Marylebone barrier.

 

[londonbridge]

. Assuming my lad is in the wrong (and he was because he should've bought a ticket BEFORE he got on the train or better still, just tapped his debit card)

But in the opening post you say he DID tap his card at Amersham, in which case he did nothing wrong and had no need to purchase another ticket…..

 

[Haywain]

But in the opening post you say he DID tap his card at Amersham, in which case he did nothing wrong and had no need to purchase another ticket…

And if he didn't, any defence disappears.

 

[island]

I’m very confused as to their reasoning that the journeys were “short”. What evidence do they have to make that accusation?

None, I suspect, merely a supposition based on the fact the passenger has in the past travelled from Great Missenden (and their address may be near there).

 

[some bloke]

Assuming my lad is in the wrong (and he was because he should've bought a ticket BEFORE he got on the train or better still, just tapped his debit card) then I am going to try to speak to the author of the letter which I'm guessing will be a waste of time.

Best not to talk to them until the situation's clearer to people on here.

Please:

1. Clarify what you mean by "he should've...just tapped his debit card". Do you mean at Marylebone? As people have said, a tap in at Amersham authorises travel.

2. Upload the letter he sent earlier, whose contents may influence what you write next, again with personal details redacted.

3. Give any other information which may be relevant about exactly what happened, including what he and they said at the time. This may also influence what you write next.

4. Give us the date of the letter specifying 14 days to reply.

 

[skyhigh]

I’m very confused as to their reasoning that the journeys were “short”. What evidence do they have to make that accusation?

I'm wondering given that they are ToD tickets if they might have actually been collected from the machine at Great Missenden (or elsewhere).

If so, it might be worth explaining why that is. If they definitely weren't collected anywhere other than Amersham, then it looks to me as if they're simply fishing on the accusations of short fares.

 

[LokiZozz]

Best not to talk to them until the situation's clearer to people on here.

Please:

1. Clarify what you mean by "he should've...just tapped his debit card". Do you mean at Marylebone? As people have said, a tap in at Amersham authorises travel.

2. Upload the letter he sent earlier, whose contents may influence what you write next, again with personal details redacted.

3. Give any other information which may be relevant about exactly what happened, including what he and they said at the time. This may also influence what you write next.

4. Give us the date of the letter specifying 14 days to reply.

1. Yes I meant at Marylebone. He tapped in at Amersham in order to get through the gates - I just need proof if I can get hold of him to open an account with TFL. He didn't realise you could tap out at Marylebone hence buying the trainline ticket.

2. All correspondence attached.

3. The only thing not in the letter was, when asked where he came from, he said Missenden then corrected himself to Amersham. It's 75/25 that he goes from Amersham. I drove him that day. He has loads of train tickets proving he goes to and from both.

4. 14 days from 23 June.

 

[MikeWh]

1. Clarify what you mean by "he should've...just tapped his debit card".

Used his debit card to PAYG which he thought wasn't allowed on Chiltern trains, but they now know is valid.

You should be concerned about this as it provides evidence to support the claim about where your son joined the train, and provides evidence that he had taken steps to pay a fare. If the card used is registered on the TfL Oyster website you would then be able to see the journey history and, if there is an incomplete journey, take action to add a touch out at Marylebone which would pay the fare for the journey taken.

Absolutely. I've just added a new card to my contactless account and it's really easy. All you need is the name on the card, the long card number, expiry date, CVV number from the back and the address the card is registered to. You *might* have to go through your banks security, but I didn't. If you know all the details I'd give it a go. Any past travel will be visible immediately going back a year.

 

[some bloke]

All correspondence attached.

Thank you. So they haven't responded to the basic point that he tapped in.

Probably best to email rather than calling, at least at first - ideally with the evidence of the tap in, photos of the other tickets, and a statement from yourself which includes the facts that he has taken trains from both stations and you gave him a lift/have given him lifts.

If you put a draft on here people can comment on it.

You can follow up with a phone call if it seems necessary and appropriate.

It's understandable if they think he only bought a ticket after seeing the barriers were closed, though their failure to respond to the point about tapping in is a different matter.

 

[WesternLancer]

1. Yes I meant at Marylebone. He tapped in at Amersham in order to get through the gates - I just need proof if I can get hold of him to open an account with TFL. He didn't realise you could tap out at Marylebone hence buying the trainline ticket.

2. All correspondence attached.

3. The only thing not in the letter was, when asked where he came from, he said Missenden then corrected himself to Amersham. It's 75/25 that he goes from Amersham. I drove him that day. He has loads of train tickets proving he goes to and from both.

4. 14 days from 23 June.

I think with what you have said ppl here can now help you construct a decent letter or e-mail back on this that should get the case dropped.

If you can get the bank card details to set up a TfL account that would ideally provide the supporting proof to refute the case and show payment was made (I hope)

From the railways point of view I can see what may have happened - eg son buys ticket on line after train departs, gets to barrier and Inspectors discussion is all about that ticket (which is not valid due to when purchased) but it is never raised or asked about that there had also been a touch in, creating another valid ticket. So the report gets made for prosecution. Son also mistakenly answers a question on start of journey as being from station near their RAF base and this then looks like another ticket infringement. It then all escalates etc.

A really clearly written, properly evidenced response to this to TIL should surely resolve the matter I would hope. I would definitely also make the suggestion that any reply draft is posted up here for checking / proof reading so people can help ensure the response to TIL is as good as it can be.

 

[Snow1964]

Because of the muddle, the letter will need clear step by step points. What you don't want is some busy clerk reading first two sentences and dismissing it.

State that because your son is away on duty with Forces, he is unable to reply personally within 14 days

Make it clear that live between 2 stations, use both on different occasions.

Can provide evidence started from Amersham on day in question.

Touched in at Amersham (and have TfL proof)

Due to confusion inspector thought buying another ticket, not contactless you were already travelling on. Inspector had asked for ticket on phone, which clearly wasn't the one being travelled with, so inspector mistakenly thought valid ticket didn't exist.

Appears that instead of a through journey to Paddington, has been treated as two incomplete journeys, due to Marylebone gates not accepting ticket. (Is this bit correct?)

State enclosing evidence of the contactless tickets (the TfL statements), but could not prove contactless journey at time as card history did not show live. Therefore could please confirm that case is now dropped as now providing missing evidence of contactless.

I suggest you post a draft of the letter so others can check and refine it.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

[H]e can't risk it in case he is found guilty which could be catastrophic for his career if he has a criminal record.

Just to pick up on this point: I'm not convinced that a conviction for fare dodging would be catastrophic for your son's career.

It might be that your son has already checked this point and it would indeed be a problem - but if he hasn't checked it, my understanding is that the armed forces do offer welfare advice: to my mind your son should find out what the arrangements are in his unit, and ask (in as much confidence as possible) how much of a problem it would be.

Our experience is that in most jobs, a minor criminal conviction is not a problem - as long as it's disclosed to the employer so that they know that their worker isn't hiding anything from them. Of course, the armed forces are different from civilian employers in all sorts of ways, and this could be one of them - but my view is that it would be sensible to check, as it may relieve you and your son from some worry.

 

[30907]

As the Trainline trawl has produced two more supposed instances of short-faring, it would be worth confirming that your son travelled to/from Amersham, buying online because he was still under the impression that Oyster/contactless could not be used from MYB.

(A small detail: a Railcard discount can be applied to an Oyster card, but not to a bank card - this would be well worth noting for the future.)

 

[LokiZozz]

Thank you everybody. I will work on a letter and post it in a couple of days.

Really appreciate the help