Chiltern Overcrowding

[leytongabriel]

Recently had the misfortune to get an off-peak Chiltern train to Oxford, the 10.06. Two cars only, standing in the vestibules and down the aisles. Loads of people left on the platform unable to board at Marylebone. And not one single announcement on the train or the platform advising passengers if they could get a later service or apologising for the day. Train despatcher was doing a lot of shoulder shrugging.
Had a quick word with the driver who said that even with four cars the service is rammed. He just said 'Chiltern management' and rolled his eyes. It's Xmas shopping shopping time and the crowds are going to Bicester Village. Anyone know what's going on? No spare units off-peak??

 

[Bletchleyite]

Anyone know what's going on?

Arriva?

I've heard plenty to suggest that, while it's not exactly suffering a TPE, LNR or Northern style collapse, Chiltern isn't what it used to be since it was moved from being managed by DB Regio AG to Arriva.

 

[Horizon22]

Was it a one-off due to a fault or some other reason?

Also this is only just off-peak (presuming the journey was M-F); I imagine most units that had finished journeys were back in depots away from Marylebone.

 

[Train Maniac]

Chiltern have a bad habit of running two car turbos on top link express serivces. Its like that in the evening peak as well. As far as i can tell, the 68 sets sit idle on weekends, why are they not used?

 

[Lewlew]

There was a 168 (I believe) that derailed at Wembley Stadium this week so probably caused some short forms

 

[JonathanH]

Chiltern have a bad habit of running two car turbos on top link express serivces. Its like that in the evening peak as well. As far as i can tell, the 68 sets sit idle on weekends, why are they not used?

2 68-hauled sets used on Saturdays on services where have enough custom to justify using them.

Name an operator of diesel trains who runs them with substantial spare capacity. Fact is that the pollution they create means they should be run full (ie with the minimum number of powered carriages) wherever possible.

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

I experienced something similar earlier today. I had to catch the 11:43 service from Banbury to Birmingham Moor Street, and it pulled into the station as a 3-car class 168 packed to the rafters.

At every stop, more and more passengers joined the train, and by Leamington Spa (just one stop from where I boarded), passengers were left stranded on the platform as a seemingly irritated dispatcher(?) yelled "If you can't board, you'll have to wait for the next one!" By Solihull, I was quite literally forced onto the tips of my toes as I was wedged up against a dividing wall in the vestibule.

The train eventually arrived into Birmingham late, as a result of extended dwelling times and numerous announcements urging passengers to move down the carriage. I've never experienced a Chiltern Railways service this busy before, but today I simply put it down to the sheer volume of people going "Black Friday shopping".

 

[Hadders]

Chiltern to Birmingham probably very busy due to the lack of LNR services between London and Birmingham due to strikes.

 

[bramling]

Recently had the misfortune to get an off-peak Chiltern train to Oxford, the 10.06. Two cars only, standing in the vestibules and down the aisles. Loads of people left on the platform unable to board at Marylebone. And not one single announcement on the train or the platform advising passengers if they could get a later service or apologising for the day. Train despatcher was doing a lot of shoulder shrugging.
Had a quick word with the driver who said that even with four cars the service is rammed. He just said 'Chiltern management' and rolled his eyes. It's Xmas shopping shopping time and the crowds are going to Bicester Village. Anyone know what's going on? No spare units off-peak??

Pretty typical Chiltern in my experience, and particularly common off-peak.

A good reason why I tend to use VT if travelling from London to Birmingham, having had unpleasantly crowded experiences on Chiltern once too often. Too much of a lottery on train length - pretty decent if a long train turns up, but all too often it’s not the case.

 

[BucksBones]

Name an operator of diesel trains who runs them with substantial spare capacity. Fact is that the pollution they create means they should be run full (ie with the minimum number of powered carriages) wherever possible.

Well they've got that right then, with bells on.


If you used Chiltern regularly you would know that the number of 'powered carriages' they run is often below the minimum required. No one is asking for 'substantial spare capacity', just adequate provision.

Chiltern isn't what it used to be since it was moved from being managed by DB Regio AG to Arriva.

Agreed. Sorry for this hackneyed phrase but there's no 'outside the box' thinking there anymore. The Chiltern of old recognised their stock issues and introduced mk3s and even class 121s to help, both moves which surprised everyone at the time.

I read on another thread that Chiltern are getting a GA slam door mk3 set, which sounded like a good plan but no, it's just a replacement for one they're withdrawing.

What is to stop them using spare mk4s for example, other than the training required?

They're just treading water I'm afraid.

 

[philthetube]

They just haven't got enough trains, they started the oxford, trying to run squeeze more out of what they already had, it has proved popular and needs even more, they should never have been allowed to commence oxford without getting nes stock to run it.

 

[BucksBones]

They just haven't got enough trains, they started the oxford, trying to run squeeze more out of what they already had, it has proved popular and needs even more, they should never have been allowed to commence oxford without getting nes stock to run it.

Absolutely.

 

[ChilternTurbo]

They just haven't got enough trains, they started the oxford, trying to run squeeze more out of what they already had, it has proved popular and needs even more, they should never have been allowed to commence oxford without getting nes stock to run it.

As a regular Chiltern user, the introduction of Oxford services has been to the detriment of other services. You only have to look at the Chiltern twitter feed to see the extent of the rolling stock shortages with short formed trains being a feature of peak time departures from Marylebone being the norm. On the subject of Marylebone, it just can't handle the number of passengers using it. This is not helped by the fact that Chiltern often announce the boarding of trains less than five minutes before the scheduled departure - good luck if you're carrying luggage or have mobility issues... Oh and some of the dispatchers at MYB could do with some training in basic customer service.

 

[Kite159]

I experienced something similar earlier today. I had to catch the 11:43 service from Banbury to Birmingham Moor Street, and it pulled into the station as a 3-car class 168 packed to the rafters.

At every stop, more and more passengers joined the train, and by Leamington Spa (just one stop from where I boarded), passengers were left stranded on the platform as a seemingly irritated dispatcher(?) yelled "If you can't board, you'll have to wait for the next one!" By Solihull, I was quite literally forced onto the tips of my toes as I was wedged up against a dividing wall in the vestibule.

The train eventually arrived into Birmingham late, as a result of extended dwelling times and numerous announcements urging passengers to move down the carriage. I've never experienced a Chiltern Railways service this busy before, but today I simply put it down to the sheer volume of people going "Black Friday shopping".

A 3 coach unit, how luxurious compared to a 2 coach unit used on the 16:55 Moor Street - London service, it was pretty much full a good 5 minutes before departure at Moor Street.

Thankfully there was the hourly Dorridge stopper 15 minutes before hand to take up some demand from Solihull

 

[jimm]

Well they've got that right then, with bells on.

If you used Chiltern regularly you would know that the number of 'powered carriages' they run is often below the minimum required. No one is asking for 'substantial spare capacity', just adequate provision.

Agreed. Sorry for this hackneyed phrase but there's no 'outside the box' thinking there anymore. The Chiltern of old recognised their stock issues and introduced mk3s and even class 121s to help, both moves which surprised everyone at the time.

I read on another thread that Chiltern are getting a GA slam door mk3 set, which sounded like a good plan but no, it's just a replacement for one they're withdrawing.

What is to stop them using spare mk4s for example, other than the training required?

They're just treading water I'm afraid.

And no wonder they are treading water with just two years left of the franchise - way back in the early days of the franchise, it was easy to earn the money back over an extended period to cover the costs of bringing in and using extra stock - with two years left, that's not going to happen, and the odds of the DFT allowing it are near zero in that context.

They just haven't got enough trains, they started the oxford, trying to run squeeze more out of what they already had, it has proved popular and needs even more, they should never have been allowed to commence oxford without getting nes stock to run it.

I am sure Chiltern, like other TOCs, would like to know where all this spare rolling stock can be found.

And despite what you claim, Chiltern did get extra stock before the start of the Oxford service, with nine two-car Class 170s moved from TransPennine Express (which wasn't exactly flush with rolling stock itself...) to be turned into 168s.

 

[Taunton]

Chiltern have always been bad at this. It was a couple of years ago that a colleague went for the first Up service of the day on Marathon Sunday morning from Gerrards Cross (about 0745 I think). Fortunately they were only a spectator, not a competitor, although others among the about 60 or so on the platform were. In rolled a 2-car already packed to near-suffocation, hardly anyone got in. I think I wrote about it here at the time.

Now nobody is going to tell me there is no other stock on depot to reinforce the first service out on a Sunday morning. Nor that the Marathon, which has been going for more than 30 years, is some unpredictable event for numbers.

 

[gazzaa2]

They just haven't got enough trains, they started the oxford, trying to run squeeze more out of what they already had, it has proved popular and needs even more, they should never have been allowed to commence oxford without getting nes stock to run it.

Who has these days? Every train out of Birmingham is full to bursting. The Cross Country trains to Oxford (or anywhere else) from Birmingham are packed out.

Most TOCs that aren't serving London (and plenty that do) have a chronic lack of rolling stock to deal with demand.

 

[The Planner]

And no wonder they are treading water with just two years left of the franchise - way back in the early days of the franchise, it was easy to earn the money back over an extended period to cover the costs of bringing in and using extra stock - with two years left, that's not going to happen, and the odds of the DFT allowing it are near zero in that context.

I am sure Chiltern, like other TOCs, would like to know where all this spare rolling stock can be found.

And despite what you claim, Chiltern did get extra stock before the start of the Oxford service, with nine two-car Class 170s moved from TransPennine Express (which wasn't exactly flush with rolling stock itself...) to be turned into 168s.

Jimm is spot on with this. Chiltern are in the twilight of their franchise and paying premiums back to DfT. There is no way they are going to start spending extra money when as soon as what comes currently into the till it is taken out to go to DfT.

 

[MML]

Solution would be to use MK3 or MK4 stock coming off-lease to operate all the Oxford and Birmingham express services, leaving more of the suburban and semi fast services in the hands of the Turbo fleet.

 

[43096]

They just haven't got enough trains, they started the oxford, trying to run squeeze more out of what they already had, it has proved popular and needs even more, they should never have been allowed to commence oxford without getting nes stock to run it.

Incorrect. They took the nine Class 170s from TPE when Oxford started. There was plenty of fuss about it at the time.

 

[hooverboy]

Jimm is spot on with this. Chiltern are in the twilight of their franchise and paying premiums back to DfT. There is no way they are going to start spending extra money when as soon as what comes currently into the till it is taken out to go to DfT.

+1

the incumbent ToC is going to have to forecast and plan accordingly.
until the successful bidder is announced,don't expect much in the way of ajustments to the existing service.

@moderators, maybe it's time for a thread
re: new chiltern franchise and rolling stock predictions.

 

[JonathanH]

Solution would be to use MK3 or MK4 stock coming off-lease to operate all the Oxford and Birmingham express services, leaving more of the suburban and semi fast services in the hands of the Turbo fleet.

Not going to happen. If there was any desire for additional stock, they might have sought to outbid TfW for Anglia's 170s or EMR or Northern for Scotrail's 170s. It is clear that they didn't.

 

[JonathanH]

+1

the incumbent ToC is going to have to forecast and plan accordingly.
until the successful bidder is announced,don't expect much in the way of ajustments to the existing service.

@moderators, maybe it's time for a thread
re: new chiltern franchise and rolling stock predictions.

Already was one fairly recently
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/chiltern-new-trains.191886/

 

[ExRes]

Solution would be to use MK3 or MK4 stock coming off-lease to operate all the Oxford and Birmingham express services

Which would then require the traction to haul them

 

[The Planner]

Solution would be to use MK3 or MK4 stock coming off-lease to operate all the Oxford and Birmingham express services, leaving more of the suburban and semi fast services in the hands of the Turbo fleet.

Can you fit the extra loco hauled sets in at Wembley, Aylesbury or Banbury, or are we in a situation were we are juggling stock by out stabling in stations?

 

[yorkie]

+1

the incumbent ToC is going to have to forecast and plan accordingly.
until the successful bidder is announced,don't expect much in the way of ajustments to the existing service.

@moderators, maybe it's time for a thread
re: new chiltern franchise and rolling stock predictions.

If anyone wishes to make a thread for rolling stock predictions and/or to make suggestions for rolling stock provision, please do feel free to create a thread in the Speculative Ideas section

Also if anyone wishes to contact moderators please use the report button or the 'contact us' link at the bottom of each post, but please don't post messages to us in threads.

Thanks

 

[221129]

Not going to happen. If there was any desire for additional stock, they might have sought to outbid TfW for Anglia's 170s or EMR or Northern for Scotrail's 170s. It is clear that they didn't.

Except that isnt how it works.

 

[JonathanH]

Except that isnt how it works.

Well, if that isn't how it works then there is no suitable rolling stock and motive power to address any change in Chiltern's rolling stock for some time yet.

 

[cactustwirly]

Except that isnt how it works.

But that's how it worked for the ex TPE 170s is it not?

 

[headshot119]

But that's how it worked for the ex TPE 170s is it not?

Yes it is.