Chiltern Overcrowding/Poor services

[CR165022]

In terms of stock, there is currently 2 165s out of use, and 4 168s out of use.
165025 & 168107 have remained out of service for many months, although 168107 has been moved recently
Then they have 168005 out of service because of fatality damage sustained recently.
168215 is at Crewe, being repaired
168329 has gone back to Wolverton for futher work
and finally, 165004 is still in for Hybrid conversion

so in total, thats 18 carriages out of use

 

[RobertsN]

We went via Chiltern to Wembley for a football play off final last year. The outbound train was fine, full length (8?), got a bit crowded towards London, but fine overall). The return trip was a shambles - a platform full of supporters after leaving the ground, and a 2 coach train turned up, quickly filled and left with the platform still full. The opposite platform was also full, a 3 coach train arrived in that direction taking some of the supporters towards London. On our side, another train came, another 2 coacher for a different destination, quickly filled up and left people standing! Our next train was about half an hour off, and it was a 3 coacher, so again, filled up quickly and left people on the platform. Where were the longer formations? Was it not obvious that full length trains are needed for the services straight after the end of a play off final?? It's hardly rocket science that there'd be a lot of people there! All the trains we saw on the way down were full length (8?), but none after the match finished in either direction, to any destinations!

Slightly off topic, but WMT does the same sort of ridiculous stuff on services at high-demand times coming out of Moor Street southbound. Had a case where I was waiting for a service at Moor Street (platform jam packed - Weekday, around 6 PM) and a 3 car turned up. In the meantime, an empty set did Tyseley-Snow Hill-Tyseley as a 5xxx service. Wonder if there could have been a set-swap in Snow Hill to make life easier.

 

[sammyg901]

Perhaps Chiltern could be a test for a big shake up in the railways to cope with the "new norm" which is going to need a big uplift in leisure revenue and a focus on cost

• TWT vs MF timetables - the latter reduced (more stops/less mainline services, reduced Amersham line peak trains)
• MF timetables to apply throughout July & August & Xmas to allow for driver Holidays
• Revised season tickets using smart cards to encourage people back to having one- 3 days per week, incentives to travel M or F per week, 6 free weekend tickets
• A well resourced high quality train service for the weekends, 100mph Bicester Village/Oxford services back, perhaps the silver sets on the busiest trains
• Group deals, buy 4 tickets get free car park etc to attract people off of the road and onto the train
• Good Wembley provision for those coming from the North

 

[The Planner]

Perhaps Chiltern could be a test for a big shake up in the railways to cope with the "new norm" which is going to need a big uplift in leisure revenue and a focus on cost

• TWT vs MF timetables - the latter reduced (more stops/less mainline services, reduced Amersham line peak trains)
• MF timetables to apply throughout July & August & Xmas to allow for driver Holidays
• Revised season tickets using smart cards to encourage people back to having one- 3 days per week, incentives to travel M or F per week, 6 free weekend tickets
• A well resourced high quality train service for the weekends, 100mph Bicester Village/Oxford services back, perhaps the silver sets on the busiest trains
• Group deals, buy 4 tickets get free car park etc to attract people off of the road and onto the train
• Good Wembley provision for those coming from the North

Or resource drivers enough so you don't have bonkers timetable ideas.

 

[Adam Williams]

Yeah, it's pretty bad. I've been on some horribly overcrowded late night Chiltern services back towards Brum from Marylebone, usually with just two coaches.

If you arrive at MYB early enough you can obviously usually board before the platform number gets posted up, but that doesn't solve the problem for most passengers.

If XC didn't finish at 9pm I'd go via Paddington & Reading most of the time to get to Leamington. Nowadays there's a late Avanti service back to Cov which is also an option for at least getting close to home.

 

[Vanmanyo]

Yeah, it's pretty bad. I've been on some horribly overcrowded late night Chiltern services back towards Brum from Marylebone, usually with just two coaches.

If you arrive at MYB early enough you can obviously usually board before the platform number gets posted up, but that doesn't solve the problem for most passengers.

If XC didn't finish at 9pm I'd go via Paddington & Reading most of the time to get to Leamington. Nowadays there's a late Avanti service back to Cov which is also an option for at least getting close to home.

Ye, usually they make the stratford London ones 2 carriages because smart. I've been Paddington to banbury and then XC to Leamington too. Its longer but in peak hours in evening its better.

 

[SynthD]

They still add extra calling points but not extra carriages or services unlike before covid.

They do add extra carriages, this is from their changes to train times for a few days next month. They are diverting resources from the Aylesbury line for this and a Wembley event on the same day.

Sunday 19th June 2022:

In connection with planned engineering works on the Euston - Birmingham New Street route, Chiltern Railways will be operating an amended timetable, including an enhanced service between Marylebone and Birmingham Moor Street, with specially-lengthened trains.

 

[sammyg901]

Or resource drivers enough so you don't have bonkers timetable ideas.

I saw a stat that only 5% of previous commuters are buying season tickets now and I can well believe it for the bulk of Chiltern users. So how to pay for it without massive govt subsidy ?

 

[The Planner]

I saw a stat that only 5% of previous commuters are buying season tickets now and I can well believe it for the bulk of Chiltern users. So how to pay for it without massive govt subsidy ?

You still wouldn't have two separate base timetables for weekdays, not even Chiltern would want to do that.

 

[sammyg901]

You still wouldn't have two separate base timetables for weekdays, not even Chiltern would want to do that.

Why not? It's not impossible just because we haven't done it before. Has to be better than empty trains into London on a Friday morning and packed 2 car services back on a Saturday night

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why not? It's not impossible just because we haven't done it before. Has to be better than empty trains into London on a Friday morning and packed 2 car services back on a Saturday night

The way to deal with this is to have a base clockface Mon-Sat timetable (ideally Mon-Sun, but we know the issues with the latter) and lay Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday Only (TWThO) peak extras on top as well as lengthening certain parts of the base service. This wasn't feasible before as you had to cram everything in for high commuter numbers, but now there are fewer of them it's more feasible.

 

[Snow1964]

Since Chiltern is unlikely to have much Birmingham London traffic post HS2 its not a priority for investment imho.

Thats admitting the current rolling stock leasing market is not working. In theory Chiltern should be able to go the rolling stock companies and say we need X trains for Y years (until a date few weeks after HS2 opens), and it not be Chilterns problem who leases them subsequently.

But who in 2022 is going to agree to build a load of diesel trains?

This comes back to GBR ought to order say 100 5car bi-mode cross-country / outer suburban units (perhaps 50 of them with third rail as well for services via Salisbury), not 125+mph express units, but 90-110mph (90mph diesel, 110mph ac electric) units so that existing diesel units can be redeployed. It is not just Chiltern that has crowding problems, as other threads demonstrate it is also Cotswold line, Cardiff-Portsmouth, some trans Pennine etc with crowding problems. Waiting for someone to order piecemeal quantities will never result in good investment.

 

[The Planner]

Why not? It's not impossible just because we haven't done it before. Has to be better than empty trains into London on a Friday morning and packed 2 car services back on a Saturday night

The way to deal with this is to have a base clockface Mon-Sat timetable (ideally Mon-Sun, but we know the issues with the latter) and lay Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday Only (TWThO) peak extras on top as well as lengthening certain parts of the base service. This wasn't feasible before as you had to cram everything in for high commuter numbers, but now there are fewer of them it's more feasible.

No its not impossible, but it is the wrong way to do it, @Bletchleyite has the right idea in that you supplement the base.

 

[Vanmanyo]

No its not impossible, but it is the wrong way to do it, @Bletchleyite has the right idea in that you supplement the base.

Or do they just make every train from London to Brum 6 carriages at the least, with new bi mode fleet being able to accomplish that?

 

[JonathanH]

Or do they just make every train from London to Brum 6 carriages at the least, with new bi mode fleet being able to accomplish that?

No, because there are many services where 3-car trains, even 2-car trains are sufficient at less busy times of the day.

 

[sammyg901]

No its not impossible, but it is the wrong way to do it, @Bletchleyite has the right idea in that you supplement the base.

To the end user this has more or less the same result

But yes I think it could work for Chiltern, a clock face hourly pattern of 1 or 2 x Brums (+ Kidderminster extensions) , 2 Oxfords, an Aylesbury via Hw a Gerrards Cross and 2 Aylesbury via Amersham as the base. TWT add in peak Banburys, High Wycombes , Aylesbury Vale Parkway "fasts" . Peak being later on a Saturday morning

The ideal thing would be to speed up the Oxfords TWT but that may overcomplicate things + difficult to mix/path fast and slow services

 

[Bletchleyite]

To the end user this has more or less the same result

Actually a much better one. Think of the typical Merseyrail timetable - 4tph weekdays, 2tph Sundays, but those 2 are a subset of the 4. Thus if you remember 00/30 and show up for a train then, there will always be one, even if on some days/at some times there are also 15 and 45. And you can time planned connections around that base, with the extras laid on top primarily aimed at those making direct journeys.

There's a certain non-EU European country that does it that way of course, and as usual they are right

But yes I think it could work for Chiltern, a clock face hourly pattern of 1 or 2 x Brums (+ Kidderminster extensions) , 2 Oxfords, an Aylesbury via Hw a Gerrards Cross and 2 Aylesbury via Amersham as the base. TWT add in peak Banburys, High Wycombes , Aylesbury Vale Parkway "fasts" . Peak being later on a Saturday morning

Yep.

The ideal thing would be to speed up the Oxfords TWT but that may overcomplicate things + difficult to mix/path fast and slow services

Definitely don't do this, it complicates it. Though it was the basis of the mid-2000s WCML timetable (the one before through Birminghams came back and before the Crewes) - roughly, from Euston you had xx10/40 as Tring stoppers, xx23/53 as Leighton, MKC, Wolverton and Northampton, and xx24/54 as MKC semifasts. Then in the evening peak (the morning wasn't quite as neat) you added another pair of Bletchley terminators at xx04/xx34 and took some stops out of the MKC semifasts as well as extending those to serve Wolverton and Northampton. Increased commuting required a bit more of a mess to be made of this, e.g. by splitting the chronically overcrowded 1724 and 1824 into "a 16 car train", i.e. two 8-car trains doing half the stops each which was a fairly clever but messy trick, e.g. only one of the two did Bletchley and the other Leighton, and one did Apsley and the other Kings Langley.

 

[JamesT]

To the end user this has more or less the same result

But yes I think it could work for Chiltern, a clock face hourly pattern of 1 or 2 x Brums (+ Kidderminster extensions) , 2 Oxfords, an Aylesbury via Hw a Gerrards Cross and 2 Aylesbury via Amersham as the base. TWT add in peak Banburys, High Wycombes , Aylesbury Vale Parkway "fasts" . Peak being later on a Saturday morning

The ideal thing would be to speed up the Oxfords TWT but that may overcomplicate things + difficult to mix/path fast and slow services

You say speed up the Oxford services, on the flip side there is demand from places like Haddenham and Thame to get more frequent services into Oxford rather than being skipped past by fast services from Oxford to Marylebone.

 

[BanburyBlue]

This is exactly what happened on Sunday. Wrexham fans heading via Birmingham home. I didn't catch the train there, I stayed in London until yesterday, but on the bridge over the station it was chaos, and looking down onto the platform it was rammed.

Pre-covid, Chiltern did put on extras and made specific calls at Wembley even if not normally booked to stop.

It would appear that Wembley no longer seems to be in their planning!

Yes I had the same when I went to the Women's FA Cup final in December. It was a Sunday so one hourly northbound train to Banbury and beyond. A Class 68 LCHS rocked up. They wouldn't let any of us on it as it was 'too busy'. I've no idea what 'too busy' meant as we weren't allowed on the platform. (They didn't seem to mind the pre-match up trains to Wembley being 'too busy' as the unit was rammed by the time it got to Wembley). We then had to wait for another hour for the next service, where they locked out 2 carriages exclusively for Wembley passengers. Apparently this is what they normally do.

 

[sammyg901]

You say speed up the Oxford services, on the flip side there is demand from places like Haddenham and Thame to get more frequent services into Oxford rather than being skipped past by fast services from Oxford to Marylebone.

Yes very true - was recently caught out myself by the lack of Princes Risborough calls on Oxford services. Though I imagine the bulk of the demand is contra to the flows into London so should be possible to accomodate

Out of interest I was looking at the last pre-COVID timetable https://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/sites/default/files/CR1912_DL_BOOK_COMPILED_WEB.pdf and there is still quite a bit of difference.

On a Saturday on the "mainline" there used to be approx

• 2 x Oxfords - one fast to/from Bicester Village
• Aylesbury stopper
• Gerrards Cross stopper
• 2 x Birminghams (or beyond)
• Banbury semi fast

now there is

• 2 x Oxfords - 6 or 7 calls to London from Bicester
• Aylesbury stopper
• 2 x Birminghams

So it's easy to see why weekends could be a problem if leisure demand is at/above 2019 levels (though Bicester Village demand from London will still be somewhat lower due to missing Chinese/Japanese etc tourists)

 

[Vanmanyo]

Yes very true - was recently caught out myself by the lack of Princes Risborough calls on Oxford services. Though I imagine the bulk of the demand is contra to the flows into London so should be possible to accomodate

Out of interest I was looking at the last pre-COVID timetable https://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/sites/default/files/CR1912_DL_BOOK_COMPILED_WEB.pdf and there is still quite a bit of difference.

On a Saturday on the "mainline" there used to be approx

• 2 x Oxfords - one fast to/from Bicester Village
• Aylesbury stopper
• Gerrards Cross stopper
• 2 x Birminghams (or beyond)
• Banbury semi fast

now there is

• 2 x Oxfords - 6 or 7 calls to London from Bicester
• Aylesbury stopper
• 2 x Birminghams

So it's easy to see why weekends could be a problem if leisure demand is at/above 2019 levels (though Bicester Village demand from London will still be somewhat lower due to missing Chinese/Japanese etc tourists)

I believe they still have the Banbury semi fast as that calls at station like Seer Green etc that other services wouldnt call at.

 

[CR165022]

I believe they still have the Banbury semi fast as that calls at station like Seer Green etc that other services wouldnt call at.

they have them in peak times on weekdays, but not at weekends
they were very useful before they were removed, as it stopped people being put onto busy birmingham services, which also happen to now stop nearly everywhere past bicester
not to mention how the aylesbury (via high wycombe) services now stop everywhere on weekends (bar the 2 sudburys), which adds another 20 mins onto the service, which makes it an hour and 20 long, whereas it used to be only an hour.

 

[Vanmanyo]

they have them in peak times on weekdays, but not at weekends
they were very useful before they were removed, as it stopped people being put onto busy birmingham services, which also happen to now stop nearly everywhere past bicester
not to mention how the aylesbury (via high wycombe) services now stop everywhere on weekends (bar the 2 sudburys), which adds another 20 mins onto the service, which makes it an hour and 20 long, whereas it used to be only an hour.

Ah, the timetable is also bad, I'm on a service now where there are two trains timetabled to leave bicester North at the same time in the same direction with only one platform in the direction of travel so we are late now

 

[The Planner]

Ah, the timetable is also bad, I'm on a service now where there are two trains timetabled to leave bicester North at the same time in the same direction with only one platform in the direction of travel so we are late now

The first train is late, 1U50 is meant to depart at at 1828, 1G52 at 1834.

 

[MikeWM]

I was considering getting Chiltern between London and Oxford on Saturday. My recollection was that it took just over an hour - and looking back at the 2019 timetables, that seems right (usual journey time seems to be 63 or 64 minutes).

I was somewhat surprised to see that the trains now all appear to take almost 90 minutes, presumably due to all the extra stops, thus turning an attractive alternative to GWR into one I wouldn't even usually consider.

 

[gallafent]

I was considering getting Chiltern between London and Oxford on Saturday. My recollection was that it took just over an hour - and looking back at the 2019 timetables, that seems right (usual journey time seems to be 63 or 64 minutes).

I was somewhat surprised to see that the trains now all appear to take almost 90 minutes, presumably due to all the extra stops, thus turning an attractive alternative to GWR into one I wouldn't even usually consider.

Absolutely this. It's been a long time since I've used Chiltern's services for exactly this reason. With the accelerated GWR timetable since the full introduction of the IETs, and the slowdown on Chiltern, it was already essentially always quicker by GWR to Paddington then onwards by tube, no matter where one was ending up in London. Now that you can also get from Paddington to Tottenham Court Road station in 4m11s (measured stationary to stationary, not doors-open to doors-open, but still ...) I think there must be even fewer times that Chiltern would make sense. Pity. To be relevant for Oxford (central, as opposed to parkway), they certainly need to speed up the timetable again …

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was considering getting Chiltern between London and Oxford on Saturday. My recollection was that it took just over an hour - and looking back at the 2019 timetables, that seems right (usual journey time seems to be 63 or 64 minutes).

I was somewhat surprised to see that the trains now all appear to take almost 90 minutes, presumably due to all the extra stops, thus turning an attractive alternative to GWR into one I wouldn't even usually consider.

It's hard to get upset about this when connectivity was the alleged reason for doing the Chiltern to Oxford thing in the first place. On-rail competition is really not a good use of resources.

 

[Vanmanyo]

The first train is late, 1U50 is meant to depart at at 1828, 1G52 at 1834.

Yes I double checked and did realise this, its just google doesnt register the train as late. Silly 165 being late!

 

[bramling]

It's hard to get upset about this when connectivity was the alleged reason for doing the Chiltern to Oxford thing in the first place. On-rail competition is really not a good use of resources.

Was it not generally regarded as being the case that Chiltern’s Oxford service has resulted in the demise of one of the long established Oxford/London coach services? (I could be misremembering).

 

[MikeWM]

It's hard to get upset about this when connectivity was the alleged reason for doing the Chiltern to Oxford thing in the first place. On-rail competition is really not a good use of resources.

Whether that was the reason or not - honestly I don't remember - I recall Chiltern making a big deal of the fact there was now an alternative, competitive route between London and Oxford. And for three years or so there was.

They still do appear to do (some) fairly fast trains on weekdays - the fastest appears to take 65 minutes.

But on Saturdays the fastest (apart from the first of the day, which oddly is fairly quick) takes a leisurely 84, and the vast majority are 89. That's a massive difference over the 63/64 minutes it took 3 years ago.

Was it not generally regarded as being the case that Chiltern’s Oxford service has resulted in the demise of one of the long established Oxford/London coach services? (I could be misremembering).

The X90 ended at the start of 2020 due to 'growing congestion' and 'new rail competition', the latter no doubt referring to the Chiltern services.

https://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/17941742.oxford-bus-company-x90-service-scrapped/

Falling passenger numbers due to new rail competition and worsening congestion have made maintaining the X90 service 'challenging' says the company.

This has seen the time it takes to complete a journey between Oxford and London worsen by up to 50 per cent in two years and passenger numbers drop by 35 per cent since 2015.