Chiltern Mk5 implementation - speculation

[Bletchleyite]

I can't seem to find a speculative thread about these for minor bits of speculation not needing their own thread so this is one - mods feel free to merge with the existing one if there is one but I've hunted for a while and can't find one!

First bit of speculation from me...

They are indeed. But every time I have seen a set in service, 1st has been lightly loaded so doesn't appear to be much take up on that at the moment. Gives me hope that they will bin it off at some point and de-classify it like they did with the Business Zone on the Mk3s

Personally I think they should seriously consider ordering a load more Sophia seats while they're still available and re-seating them to a more dense layout in Standard and to Standard in the 1st vehicle. It would deal with the capacity issues these are going to cause, and would be fine for both commuters and for the budget users who care more about price than comfort.

Supposedly the 1st was part of the funding agreement (to increase income) but I too just can't really see it selling well - the premium London-Brum service is Avanti.

 

[800002]

Personally I think they should seriously consider ordering a load more Sophia seats while they're still available and re-seating them to a more dense layout in Standard and to Standard in the 1st vehicle.

First up, who is  they?

Secondly, it's currently not a first class offering.
It's an upgrade for a seat, like Avanti Standard Premium. Should we not be advocating slightly differently here? (Again, the government won't be interested in supplying money to offer 'First Class Service offerings' as no one can guarantee to make it work against the huge (outrageous) up front costs to set it up and run it. The DfT just don't have the appetite for it

So we've now got the situation where we think something needs fixing but no one will be willing to stump up for money to do it.

 

[VT 390]

As I understand it there will be dedicated First Class fares once all sets are fully in service (likely December 2026).
If they find the first class carriage is lightly loaded after this they could introduce advance first class fares on selected services, priced just a few pounds above the standard advances. This would probably result in a slight revenue increase but no additional expenditure would be required and first class would be on the train anyway. I would think this would be a better way to use capacity (if first class turns out to be lightly used) without having to spend money changing the carriage interior.

In the short term I would like to see cheaper on board upgrades. £20 in perfectly reasonable for journeys to London but a lower level upgrade for shorter journeys would be good to encourage use.
I travelled in first class from Birmingham to Leamington Spa a few weeks ago and had to pay £20 to sit in first class. I was happy to pay this then as I was travelling on a Day Ranger specifically to try these trains in both first and standard, but for a a relatively short journey £20 is a bit much.

I have to say I am surprised in the first few months they don't keep first class declassified as people would try it out and would be more likely to pay first class fares/upgrades in the future once the fleet rollout is complete.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

First up, who is  they?

Secondly, it's currently not a first class offering.
It's an upgrade for a seat, like Avanti Standard Premium. Should we not be advocating slightly differently here? (Again, the government won't be interested in supplying money to offer 'First Class Service offerings' as no one can guarantee to make it work against the huge (outrageous) up front costs to set it up and run it. The DfT just don't have the appetite for it

So we've now got the situation where we think something needs fixing but no one will be willing to stump up for money to do it.

They already advertise them on the departure boards at Marylebone ( and presumably at the other stations they are stopping at ) as having first class - but do any TOCs other than XC long distance, Avanti, LNER, GWR and the TfW Mk 4 rakes actually offer anything extra in their first class apart from a different seat and fewer other passengers around?

 

[Mainline421]

They already advertise them on the departure boards at Marylebone ( and presumably at the other stations they are stopping at ) as having first class - but do any TOCs other than XC long distance, Avanti, LNER, GWR and the TfW Mk 4 rakes actually offer anything extra in their first class apart from a different seat and fewer other passengers around?

Yes, TPE, Scotrail, Hull Trains, Eurostar, Grand Central (although their offering is not good), Greater Anglia, Caledonian Sleeper...

 

[Egg Centric]

They already advertise them on the departure boards at Marylebone ( and presumably at the other stations they are stopping at ) as having first class - but do any TOCs other than XC long distance, Avanti, LNER, GWR and the TfW Mk 4 rakes actually offer anything extra in their first class apart from a different seat and fewer other passengers around?

TPE have one of the best menus at the moment.

A few of the others offer amusingly pathetic free catering, ranging from er, shortbread with tea (Scotrail) to perfectly acceptable sandwiches and crisps and a decent drink selection (Hull Trains/EMR).

Actually since you mention XC I was amazed the other day they had Orange Juice Drink - ie it wasn't Orange Juice but instead some concoction with sweeteners, sugar, orange flavouring etc. What on earth?

 

[JamesT]

TPE have one of the best menus at the moment.

A few of the others offer amusingly pathetic free catering, ranging from er, shortbread with tea (Scotrail) to perfectly acceptable sandwiches and crisps and a decent drink selection (Hull Trains/EMR).

Actually since you mention XC I was amazed the other day they had Orange Juice Drink - ie it wasn't Orange Juice but instead some concoction with sweeteners, sugar, orange flavouring etc. What on earth?

Orange juice has had particular issues over the last few years. Bad weather/climate, disease, tariffs, meant the price rocketed. XC will have decided they couldn’t stomach the cost and have substituted something cheaper.

 

[Egg Centric]

Orange juice has had particular issues over the last few years. Bad weather/climate, disease, tariffs, meant the price rocketed. XC will have decided they couldn’t stomach the cost and have substituted something cheaper.

Getting very off topic but last time I was in Zambia apart from the freshly squeezed stuff you couldn't buy pure pineapple juice. You could buy something that everyone called pineapple juice, it was sold in good faith as pineapple huice, and you would strongly think was pineapple juice looking at it (much like orange juice drink looks a heckuva lot like orange juice) but in reality it was always a fruit juice blend such as this one. And tbh tasted very close to the real thing because at least it was juice. This is for similar reasons - pineapple juice has been having problems too.

That though is a developing country. There is no excuse whatsoever for Cross Country - notoriously the most expensive daytime TOC - doling out sweetener enhanced crap under false pretences. Especially when their menu just says "Orange Juice". It may even be illegal, I'm not sure (am guessing probably not because menu says subject to change and you can see what they're pouring from the trolley).

 

[LittleRedTrain]

Going back to Mk5s, my first trip on one was last Monday. The first off-peak train to London and it was full & standing from Bicester North. It's still better than the 3 car 168 that often used to work this diagram, but it does feel like this is only providing the bare minimum capacity increase.
I know Chiltern have said they are going to increase frequency on the Birmingham route, but the first off peak/super off peak will still be the trains that everyone aims for.

I know there's no chance of it, but Chiltern/DfT really should be ordering some more Mk5s from CAF (if they haven't scrapped the jigs yet) to bring the sets up to 7 car (same length as a Mk3 set including DVT).
Otherwise we're just going to hit the same old issue as every TOC (XC and GWR especially) that has replaced long trains with short ones. Passengers attracted by the new trains and improved frequencies, but no capacity to absorb that growth.

I still think that reintroducing First Class is daft. The services where it is most likely to be used are the peak time trains to/from London, but these are the trains that have already been swapped from Mk3 to 168 operation because the Mk5 sets just don' t have the capacity!

 

[SynthD]

Going back to Mk5s, my first trip on one was last Monday. The first off-peak train to London and it was full & standing from Bicester North.

Could you see into first class, and were people spilling into it? They should provide floor cushions.

 

[LittleRedTrain]

Could you see into first class, and were people spilling into it? They should provide floor cushions.

Didn't get a chance to see, I spotted a vacant seat when I boarded at Banbury and grabbed it!

 

[VT 390]

While this is a non-speculative discussion and I cannot guarantee it, I do not expect 1st to disappear on these units. In fact, I expect them to double-down and add further service enhancements to improve the offering. The last credible rumour I heard was investigating offering basic catering to passengers in 1st like they used to in the Business Zone. Other suggestions had also included seat reservations for passengers in 1st only. But further discussion about these (and other enhancements) is better-suited to a speculative thread.

If they were going to introduce seat reservations (which I would support) it would seem strange to only offer reservations in first class given that first class effectively acts as an unofficial seat reservation as you would be entitled to a partial/full refund (depending if you get a standard class seat) if no first class seats were available.
I do think once the Mark 5A are fully in service seat reservations should be introduced as these will be relatively limited stop services (compared to other Chiltern routes) and provide the core London service for Banbury/Leamington/Warwick/Solihull which is a journey to long to risk being expected to stand for. They could limit reservations to first class and just 2 standard class carriages which would still leave 2 unreserved carriages for those without reservations.

Regarding the potential for catering they could offer something similar to ScotRail first class on their Mark 3 sets where they have water/biscuits at the end of the carriage as this would not require extra staff to offer the catering service. They could restock at London/Birmingham.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do think once the Mark 5A are fully in service seat reservations should be introduced as these will be relatively limited stop services (compared to other Chiltern routes) and provide the core London service for Banbury/Leamington/Warwick/Solihull which is a journey to long to risk being expected to stand for. They could limit reservations to first class and just 2 standard class carriages which would still leave 2 unreserved carriages for those without reservations.

Do services ever leave those stations full and standing? I'd be surprised if they did other than in the very height of the peak and when football is on, both of these times when trying to enforce seat reservations is not going to go well.

Seat reservations on commuter operators - and like it or not Chiltern is a commuter operator - do not make sense. When London Midland briefly had them out of Euston it was absolute havoc. LHCS does not mean InterCity; the InterCity service from Birmingham to London is provided by Avanti West Coast, but even their semifast 807 service is pushing the boundary a bit.

If they were going to introduce seat reservations (which I would support) it would seem strange to only offer reservations in first class given that first class effectively acts as an unofficial seat reservation as you would be entitled to a partial/full refund (depending if you get a standard class seat) if no first class seats were available.

I can see sense in having them in 1st, though, as the capacity is very limited, and those wanting 1st so they can for example work more effectively during the journey would want to ensure it.

 

[VT 390]

Do services ever leave those stations full and standing? I'd be surprised if they did other than in the very height of the peak and when football is on, both of these times when trying to enforce seat reservations is not going to go well.

Seat reservations on commuter operators - and like it or not Chiltern is a commuter operator - do not make sense. When London Midland briefly had them out of Euston it was absolute havoc. LHCS does not mean InterCity; the InterCity service from Birmingham to London is provided by Avanti West Coast, but even their semifast 807 service is pushing the boundary a bit.

I agree Chiltern Railways primary purpose is providing a commuter service.
However, once the Mark 5A are fully in service it has been mentioned that there will likely be a timetable recast allowing for Birmingham Mark 5A services to be more limited stop south of Banbury making the Birmingham route more of a regional service.
From Banbury northwards there will not be as many commuters as south of Banbury with decent number of leisure travellers from places like Leamington where people would be more likely to choose the train if they can reserve seats together, as while there will usually be some seats available from Leamington/Banbury there often will not be much choice of seats which is important for leisure travellers.

If adding seats reservations would add significant costs or require manual placement (as would be the case with paper reservation labels I could see the case for not supporting reservations, but as the electronic reservation displays are in place it would add convenience to passengers for very little effort and I would still want to ensure 2 standard carriages are fully unreserved.

I can see sense in having them in 1st, though, as the capacity is very limited, and those wanting 1st so they can for example work more effectively during the journey would want to ensure it.

These services are not to different from South Western Railway services to Southampton/Bournemouth which do not offer seat reservations if first class but where reasons for people upgrading would likely be similar.
Providing first class is priced right they can manage first class demand and in cases where there is unexpected demand at least you can claim compensation for the inconvenience.

 

[Bletchleyite]

These services are not to different from South Western Railway services to Southampton/Bournemouth which do not offer seat reservations if first class but where reasons for people upgrading would likely be similar.
Providing first class is priced right they can manage first class demand and in cases where there is unexpected demand at least you can claim compensation for the inconvenience.

1st on those is definitely an expensive seat reservation given that the level of comfort and space is (in my view) below that of Standard. Chiltern is a bit different in that it's a significant upgrade - of the Mk5s I've always said Standard is really quite poor but 1st is special, possibly the best in the UK.

 

[VT 390]

1st on those is definitely an expensive seat reservation given that the level of comfort and space is (in my view) below that of Standard. Chiltern is a bit different in that it's a significant upgrade - of the Mk5s I've always said Standard is really quite poor but 1st is special, possibly the best in the UK.

I definitely agree first class on the Mark 5A is far better than first class on most other seat only first class operators, but the routes and journey times are similar and likely shorter on Chiltern with Leamington being a similar journey time from London as Southampton.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I definitely agree first class on the Mark 5A is far better than first class on most other seat only first class operators, but the routes and journey times are similar and likely shorter on Chiltern with Leamington being a similar journey time from London as Southampton.

I'd say it's the best hard product of any UK operator. No soft product though, but personally I upgrade for greater comfort, not gimmicky tiny portions of food. Freebies are nice but not what I judge 1st by.