Chiltern in 2024 post Evergreen

[stssts1985]

I've always been interested in Chiltern route, especially the Evergreen work that took place mostly in the 2010s, raising the entire line to 2 track, 100mph running through much of it's route, a new link to Oxford and much of it being paid for via the private sector. Could you say a poster project of privatisation (perhaps along side Virgin XC or WestCoast).

A couple of 2024 observations.
Oxford - London no longer has a "Via High Wycombe" fare. This seems a shame as I believe, in the rare scenarios "competetion" works on the railway, trading the mainline faster trains for a lower fare is a good example of commercial competition? A bit like the excellent Birmingham "via High Wycombe" provides some very good flexible fares. Have we given up on this idea now the DfT provides the lot! A quick check shows Advance pretty available next week and pretty reasonable. Maybe they stopped wanting to compete on the end to end flow now the services are calling at most main station en-route.

The Birmingham to London time is now c 2hr10mins (which is only 10 mins less than the service took in 1995) and not the 97 mins achieved inititally by Evergreen (according to wiki). Wonder what happened there?

A recent trip up on the mark 3's showed them in pretty poor condition, even if i could enjoy the old business zone with a standard class ticket now. That same journey pre covid used to be PACKED with people getting to warwick parkway to be picked up in free shuttle busses and taken to National Grid HQ. And a few weeks ago - barley anyone getting off. A sign of the times.

I wonder what else has changed to "loose" the mission.

 

[Kite159]

The Birmingham to London time is now c 2hr10mins (which is only 10 mins less than the service took in 1995) and not the 97 mins achieved inititally by Evergreen (according to wiki). Wonder what happened there?

The Banbury stopper no longer runs as often as it did pre Covid (where it used to be hourly from memory), so the Birmingham trains have to call at more stations. No-more nonstop London - Bicester North.

 

[SynthD]

The private company had high plans (I imagine), but now the DfT is in charge and they don’t have aspirations. There’s been some interesting speculative discussion, but the leading proposals of electrification and rolling stock are far bigger than the franchise owner would have attempted.

 

[fishwomp]

A couple of 2024 observations.
Oxford - London no longer has a "Via High Wycombe" fare. [..]

The Birmingham to London time is now c 2hr10mins (which is only 10 mins less than the service took in 1995) and not the 97 mins achieved inititally by Evergreen (according to wiki). Wonder what happened there?

The speeding up of GWR to class 800 timings knocked 10 minutes or so off the journey time for GWR - meaning the 1h05 mins on Chiltern vs 50 mins on GWR, which then meant it was not worth trying to match and instead more stops came in. As another writer says, post Covid the patterns changed - whether that was because of fewer other stoppers, or because the competition couldn't be beaten on time, I don't know.

It does have a different off-peak - no evening limitation, unlike Paddington - so there are many busy trains then. I guess they get a larger piece of the ORCATS pie as a result.

 

[Route115?]

I like the idea of a high frequency railways so its a shame to see frequency reductions. However, additional stops at intermediate stations may not be a bad thing. When I was at Chiltern in the 90s there was probably too much attention on the London - Birmingham end to end traffic and not enough on intermediate flows. The trend is towards more stops, hence longer journey times is seen throughout the country. You can no longer travel from Waterloo - Southampton non-stop. I personally would like to see all SWR trains stop at Clapham Jn but it would benefit some and give others a longer journey time - winners and losers.

Competition is good for the passenger in reducing fares and Chiltern (and LNWR) offer cheap ones - as long as you live on a route with competition. The DfT might not be so sure if it reduces yields.

I think that the combination of feeder traffic from the Worcester line and new trains will give the GW route the advantage, perhaps best to concentrate on intermediate flows, but as I said at the start, its a shame to see frequencies reduced.

 

[fishwomp]

I think that the combination of feeder traffic from the Worcester line and new trains will give the GW route the advantage

Well.. some structures of the old Worcester line to the Bicester line cut-off are still there just beyond the A34 in north Oxford

The biggest strength of the current Chiltern is Oxford Parkway. Easier for North Oxford, Kidlington and good parts of the Woodstock direction - and half hourly service - so way better than Gwr options.

, perhaps best to concentrate on intermediate flows, but as I said at the start, its a shame to see frequencies reduced.

Yep, it certainly is.

 

[12LDA28C]

I've always been interested in Chiltern route, especially the Evergreen work that took place mostly in the 2010s, raising the entire line to 2 track, 100mph running through much of it's route, a new link to Oxford and much of it being paid for via the private sector. Could you say a poster project of privatisation (perhaps along side Virgin XC or WestCoast).

A couple of 2024 observations.
Oxford - London no longer has a "Via High Wycombe" fare. This seems a shame as I believe, in the rare scenarios "competetion" works on the railway, trading the mainline faster trains for a lower fare is a good example of commercial competition? A bit like the excellent Birmingham "via High Wycombe" provides some very good flexible fares. Have we given up on this idea now the DfT provides the lot! A quick check shows Advance pretty available next week and pretty reasonable. Maybe they stopped wanting to compete on the end to end flow now the services are calling at most main station en-route.

The Birmingham to London time is now c 2hr10mins (which is only 10 mins less than the service took in 1995) and not the 97 mins achieved inititally by Evergreen (according to wiki). Wonder what happened there?

A recent trip up on the mark 3's showed them in pretty poor condition, even if i could enjoy the old business zone with a standard class ticket now. That same journey pre covid used to be PACKED with people getting to warwick parkway to be picked up in free shuttle busses and taken to National Grid HQ. And a few weeks ago - barley anyone getting off. A sign of the times.

I wonder what else has changed to "loose" the mission.

Since Covid and the advent of NRCs the idea of competition between operators running on similar routes has been discouraged by the DfT so Chiltern are no longer attempting to compete with GWR between London and Oxford or AWC/LNR between London and Birmingham hence the increased journey times and more station stops, particularly on the Oxford route. Also, the easiest way to improve punctuality is to increase the amount of recovery time in the schedule. There was actually one train that was timetabled for 90 minutes between Birmingham Moor Street and Marylebone at one time, it seems Wiki missed that one...

The Mark 3s are increasingly difficult to source parts for and maintain which is why a cascaded fleet from another operator is being urgently sought so that the Mk3s can be retired.

 

[renegademaster]

Since Covid and the advent of NRCs the idea of competition between operators running on similar routes has been discouraged by the DfT so Chiltern are no longer attempting to compete with GWR between London and Oxford or AWC/LNR between London and Birmingham hence the increased journey times and more station stops, particularly on the Oxford route. Also, the easiest way to improve punctuality is to increase the amount of recovery time in the schedule.

Having a stopper focused line and an express line does seem to make more sense operationally, when both are only double track

 

[paul1609]

Id say that most of my (leisure) journeys with Chiltern have been lost to either the coach operators who can normally offer a under a tenner single journeys from Finchley Rd or Golders green that only take maybe 15 mins longer or to the other rail operators particularly LNWRs trent valley service. I think last year other than a trip to High Wycombe I only used Chiltern once when I got a cheap advance on a late Birmingham to Marylebone train.
So for me its a complex mix of longer journeytimes and higher fares on a rail journey thats very marginal compared to road whether thats car or coach.

 

[12LDA28C]

Having a stopper focused line and an express line does seem to make more sense operationally, when both are only double track

Possibly in terms of the national railway system as a whole, but if you consider the various enhancements to the Chiltern main line route which were carried out at great expense during the Evergreen projects, the benefits of which were taken advantage of initially but now in these days of extended journey times and competition between operators being suppressed - not so much.

 

[30907]

Since Covid and the advent of NRCs the idea of competition between operators running on similar routes has been discouraged by the DfT so Chiltern are no longer attempting to compete with GWR between London and Oxford or AWC/LNR between London and Birmingham hence the increased journey times and more station stops, particularly on the Oxford route.

Both Chiltern and LNR still compete on price though - Oxford is an exception to the general pattern.
I would have thought that the withdrawal of the Brum expresses is basically down to the decline in medium-distance London commuting with its drastic impact on revenue.

 

[12LDA28C]

Both Chiltern and LNR still compete on price though - Oxford is an exception to the general pattern.
I would have thought that the withdrawal of the Brum expresses is basically down to the decline in medium-distance London commuting with its drastic impact on revenue.

If you're referring to the 'Brum expresses' on the Chilterns, they haven't been withdrawn as there are still two trains an hour between the 2 cities for most of the day, they just make more stops to compensate for the lack of Banbury stoppers and other trains that no longer run. Don't forget Chiltern is still only running 83% of pre-Covid services currently.

 

[fishwomp]

Having a stopper focused line and an express line does seem to make more sense operationally, when both are only double track

Umm, no, it doesn't if they are two different routes. How about non-stop ECML and all-stops WCML, or should we be all-stops ECML and non-stop WCML?

The lines serve two different routes - and different routes pass different towns, by definition.

 

[renegademaster]

Umm, no, it doesn't if they are two different routes. How about non-stop ECML and all-stops WCML, or should we be all-stops ECML and non-stop WCML?

The lines serve two different routes - and different routes pass different towns, by definition

If the most popular destination of the ECML fasts and WCML fast where the same , then your analogy would make more sense

 

[fishwomp]

If the most popular destination of the ECML fasts and WCML fast where the same , then your analogy would make more sense

They both serve Edinburgh, frequently.

I fail to see how Didcot benefits from the express to Paddington - Reading - Oxford because of the stopper via High Wycombe.

How about York - Leeds? The Cross Gates route should go non-stop only, with the stopper via Harrogate? Or should it be the other way round?!

 

[30907]

If you're referring to the 'Brum expresses' on the Chilterns, they haven't been withdrawn as there are still two trains an hour between the 2 cities for most of the day, they just make more stops to compensate for the lack of Banbury stoppers and other trains that no longer run.

I was meaning that they are no longer Brum expresses but a second semi-fast.

Don't forget Chiltern is still only running 83% of pre-Covid services currently.

That was my point too

 

[Russel]

I hadn't used Chiltern for about 10 years until the big Euston meltdown a few days before Christmas 2023, with ticket acceptance in place up to Birmingham I ran over to Marleybone, the service back up to the Midlands was definitely slower than it used to be and stopped at a lot more stations, at 2 hours, I can't see me rushing to use them again in a hurry, sadly.

 

[12LDA28C]

I hadn't used Chiltern for about 10 years until the big Euston meltdown a few days before Christmas 2023, with ticket acceptance in place up to Birmingham I ran over to Marleybone, the service back up to the Midlands was definitely slower than it used to be and stopped at a lot more stations, at 2 hours, I can't see me rushing to use them again in a hurry, sadly.

If speed and journey time is your primary concern then you'd choose Avanti every time. As already mentioned, Chiltern are no longer attempting to compete on those criteria.

 

[Dead Sheep]

Putting aside issues of speed and the rolling stock becoming increasingly jaded, Chiltern passes through nice countryside compared to its competitors, hence it is always my first choice.

 

[paul1609]

If speed and journey time is your primary concern then you'd choose Avanti every time. As already mentioned, Chiltern are no longer attempting to compete on those criteria.

Except for a few peak trains they never were, the issue is (from my perspective) is that with fares edging up and journeytimes extending they are no longer competing against coach services for Birmingham Central that take only 15 mins longer from Golders Green/ Finchley Rd and with LNWR for journeys beyond Birmingham.

 

[philosopher]

Putting aside issues of speed and the rolling stock becoming increasingly jaded, Chiltern passes through nice countryside compared to its competitors, hence it is always my first choice.

You do get great views of the under construction Colne Valley viaduct on Chiltern!

Chiltern are definitely the choice if you want to arrive on time. Chiltern I find are usually are time, while on Avanti it is rare to arrive on time. Usually the delays are around 5 minutes, but last time I used them to Birmingham they were delayed by 20 minutes for both journeys.

 

[12LDA28C]

Except for a few peak trains they never were, the issue is (from my perspective) is that with fares edging up and journeytimes extending they are no longer competing against coach services for Birmingham Central that take only 15 mins longer from Golders Green/ Finchley Rd and with LNWR for journeys beyond Birmingham.

They certainly attempted to with the post-Evergreen headline journey time of 90 minutes Birmingham to London, and won a fair few passengers over from the WCML in the process.

 

[paul1609]

They certainly attempted to with the post-Evergreen headline journey time of 90 minutes Birmingham to London, and won a fair few passengers over from the WCML in the process.

Thats kind of what I was implying the headline times were only ever achieved by a few peak hour services towarrds London am return pm.
Think originating from London the fastest Chiltern train I ever got was fast to Bicester North then all stations to Warwick then selected stations to Moor Street much closer to 2 hours than 90 mins. Once the Chiltern Alternative gets to 2 hours plus I immediately think coach.

 

[deltic]

What changes if any will occur when Chiltern start running EWR services?

Chiltern is always my favourite route to Birmingham from London - it might be slower but less claustrophobic than a Pendolino, the wifi used to be more reliable but that no longer seems to be the case, but you could always get a table to work at.

 

[12LDA28C]

Thats kind of what I was implying the headline times were only ever achieved by a few peak hour services towarrds London am return pm.
Think originating from London the fastest Chiltern train I ever got was fast to Bicester North then all stations to Warwick then selected stations to Moor Street much closer to 2 hours than 90 mins.

There were certainly faster limited-stop trains from Marylebone to Birmingham than that, as you confirm in your first sentence.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jul 2024 ==

What changes if any will occur when Chiltern start running EWR services?

Changes to what? Existing Chiltern services? A little extra capacity will need to be found at Oxford with maybe some minor retiming/replatforming of some Marylebone trains but I'd imagine that's about it.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Thanks to @JonathanH, I recently used Chiltern’s loco hauled service from Marylebone to Birmingham. It was great being in a MK3 carriage again but yes they were a bit shabby now. Unfortunately the Chiltern Line is now very slow, we seemed to routinely get stuck behind freight trains and other services on the 2hr journey to Moor Street. It’s a pity that with electrification and the relaying of the lines through roads the route could probably reach Birmingham in 1hr 25. I’m glad I did the full route. Weird leaving Marylebone at milepost 203!

 

[Kite159]

Thats kind of what I was implying the headline times were only ever achieved by a few peak hour services towarrds London am return pm.
Think originating from London the fastest Chiltern train I ever got was fast to Bicester North then all stations to Warwick then selected stations to Moor Street much closer to 2 hours than 90 mins. Once the Chiltern Alternative gets to 2 hours plus I immediately think coach.

From memory off-peak there used to be an hourly 'fast' between London & Moor Street* which was Marylebone - Bicester North - Banbury - Leamington - Warwick Parkway** - Solihull - Birmingham.

(*Might have been Snow Hill)
(** Or Warwick itself, one of the stations was skipped).

Peak time had some services running nonstop to Banbury from London.

The problem Chiltern have is the cheapest way is often using LNR which normally will be 8 coaches. Whereas using Chiltern it can range from 2 to 8 coaches for London to Birmingham services

 

[12LDA28C]

Thanks to @JonathanH, I recently used Chiltern’s loco hauled service from Marylebone to Birmingham. It was great being in a MK3 carriage again but yes they were a bit shabby now. Unfortunately the Chiltern Line is now very slow, we seemed to routinely get stuck behind freight trains and other services on the 2hr journey to Moor Street. It’s a pity that with electrification and the relaying of the lines through roads the route could probably reach Birmingham in 1hr 25. I’m glad I did the full route. Weird leaving Marylebone at milepost 203!

Marylebone is actually at milepost 206, measured from the former Great Central Railway HQ of Manchester London Road (now Piccadilly).

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Marylebone is actually at milepost 206, measured from the former Great Central Railway HQ of Manchester London Road (now Piccadilly).

Of course, fascinating stuff.

 

[Economist]

I think it would have been beneficial if the Relief lines between Hatton and Tyseley were re-laid. Most of the required structures such as bridges, platforms etc. are still in existence. Doing so would have allowed fast Chilterns to avoid the WMR suburban stoppers and freights.

As things stand, Chiltern need a replacement for the 68's and Mark 3s.