Chiltern franchise replacement thoughts?

[Elecman]

Ideally it would be best to electrify the Chiltern Railways routes using third rail instead of overhead wires. They already travel over a long section of third rail tracks between Harrow On The Hill and Amersham so it would make much more sense to just electify the rest of the network using third rail as well.

But will never happen as the ORR will nor permit any new 3rd Rail Electrification on s@fety grounds other than very minor installations ( new Sidings)

 

[Aictos]

But will never happen as the ORR will nor permit any new 3rd Rail Electrification on s@fety grounds other than very minor installations ( new Sidings)

Far easier to just convert the Met to AC OHLE northbound from Baker Street and have dual voltage S8s instead though isn't it?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Far easier to just convert the Met to AC OHLE northbound from Baker Street and have dual voltage S8s instead though isn't it?

Stop, there's going to be a crayon shortage soon

 

[BucksBones]

Seriously? That'd be another dive in passenger satisfaction levels right there. I still get passengers asking me on hauled sets if they're in 1st class, the perception is that good. The 168s are also getting very tired inside and commuter (1/3 2/3 door positions) shouldn't have any place on London-Birmingham services. If you're going to replace the hauled sets then a full fleet replacement for the 'Mainline' trains is the way to go.

The Chiltern mk3 sets are very nice but the whole Mainline thing is going to look a bit redundant when HS2 opens. If people want a slightly cheaper option to get from London to Birmingham but still with InterCity comfort levels they can use the WCML Pendolino services; the slower, budget option will be provided by LNR (or successor) and it’s these services against which Chiltern will realistically be competing.

Turbostars or equivalent are more than adequate for that purpose IMO.

 

[island]

Ideally it would be best to electrify the Chiltern Railways routes using third rail instead of overhead wires. They already travel over a long section of third rail tracks between Harrow On The Hill and Amersham so it would make much more sense to just electify the rest of the network using third rail as well.

Never happening, new 3rd rail just won’t wash on safety grounds.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The Chiltern mk3 sets are very nice but the whole Mainline thing is going to look a bit redundant when HS2 opens. If people want a slightly cheaper option to get from London to Birmingham but still with InterCity comfort levels they can use the WCML Pendolino services; the slower, budget option will be provided by LNR (or successor) and it’s these services against which Chiltern will realistically be competing.

Turbostars or equivalent are more than adequate for that purpose IMO.

Chiltern are, for virtually all services, a not insubstantial amount quicker than West Midlands Trains. The quickest WMT is 1'55" in the morning peak - the quickest Chiltern is 1'39". During the off-peak, WMT is never less than about 2'13", and due to the timings, they are all overtaken by Chiltern services that depart later, with quickest Chiltern off-peak times of about 1'45".

This means that Chiltern is competing with WMT on price (and, in many cases, beating them for Advances, with walk-up tickets only a small amount more), and it's also competing with Virgin for time. Obviously Virgin is always the quickest option, but it is also far more expensive.

Don't forget that Virgin services will also get slower after HS2, as they will start to pick up more stops, and there will be a reduction on the current 3tph service. So, with all that in mind, Chiltern is, and will remain, a very competitive offering for passengers from Birmingham city centre, and a no-brainer for anyone starting somewhere along the Chiltern line (whether north or south of Birmingham).

I suspect passengers will also be won over by the much more pleasant interior on most of the Chiltern services. Services are virtually always 2+2 seating, not the silly 3+2 WMT affair, and there are fewer stops along the way. If someone happens to catch a loco hauled service they might think they are travelling in First Class due to the comfort.

Don't get me wrong, Turbostars are acceptable for now, but if the Chiltern line is to build on its success then it will need something a bit less rattly, at the very least!

 

[Class 170101]

But will never happen as the ORR will nor permit any new 3rd Rail Electrification on s@fety grounds other than very minor installations ( new Sidings)

Would love to know how they propose to overcome aversion to diesels due to pollution issues and the impossibility of installing OLE on some of our routes due to loading gauge. 2040 isn't far away.

The slow hourly through service from Marylebone to Milton Keynes being complained about in a couple of recent posts is no longer in the proposals. Hasn’t this been covered at length in the EWR thread in the last few months?

I believe its no longer being planned due to infrastructure not being upto scratch and pared back to save money. However that is a shame. Links from High Wycombe area to Milton Keynes would be useful. Whilst the service from Marylebone to Milton Keynes via either High Wycombe or Amersham is unlikely intermediate journeys need to be considered. Intermediate journeys are becoming harder and harder to make as the quest for faster journeys between major cities intensifies.

Firstly, Chiltern's fleet is relatively new. Wholesale replacement isn't entirely off the cards but at the moment I would be surprised if it happened. At best, some of the older stock (Turbos etc.) might be cascaded down to the likes of Northern, to replace 150s/156s.

Class 165s and Class 166s will only end up at either Chiltern or Great Western due to the loading gauge of said units.

 

[VT 390]

I suspect passengers will also be won over by the much more pleasant interior on most of the Chiltern services. Services are virtually always 2+2 seating, not the silly 3+2 WMT affair, and there are fewer stops along the way. If someone happens to catch a loco hauled service they might think they are travelling in First Class due to the comfort.

Don't get me wrong, Turbostars are acceptable for now, but if the Chiltern line is to build on its success then it will need something a bit less rattly, at the very least!

As a replacement for Chilterns 168's and Loco hauled sets could either class 220/221/222's be used as it is likely that EMT will get new stock in their new franchise and the same could be true for XC. If the 220/221 trains operated mainline services then they could either operate as 8 or 10 car formations (9 car may be possible but I am not sure) or if the 222's were used then they could be reformed in to 4 and 8 car sets with the 4 cars operating in 8 coach formations and the 8 carriage sets on their own (this should be possible by removing 1 coach from 5 car sets and putting it it the 7 car sets. The first class on these trains could either be made smaller or removed.

 

[VT 390]

Class 165s and Class 166s will only end up at either Chiltern or Great Western due to the loading gauge of said units.

Would it not make sense for GWR to have Chilterns 165 sets as they would then be the only operator of the class.

 

[Elecman]

Would love to know how they propose to overcome aversion to diesels due to pollution issues and the impossibility of installing OLE on some of our routes due to loading gauge. 2040 isn't far away.

Hybrid technology at a guess

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Hybrid technology at a guess

I've often wondered why "hotel power", as cruise ships now often use when they're in ports, hasn't been adopted more. You could make it so that it's simply part of the dispatch procedure - connect charger upon arrival, disconnection upon departure (ideally you'd want to retrofit a third rail style charging rail receiver).

 

[FQ]

The Chiltern mk3 sets are very nice but the whole Mainline thing is going to look a bit redundant when HS2 opens. If people want a slightly cheaper option to get from London to Birmingham but still with InterCity comfort levels they can use the WCML Pendolino services; the slower, budget option will be provided by LNR (or successor) and it’s these services against which Chiltern will realistically be competing.

Turbostars or equivalent are more than adequate for that purpose IMO.

I'm sure that there will still be demand for Chiltern's mainline services. HS2 will likely have relatively high prices, more than many people are willing to pay, and with a slower West Coast timetable (as I'm led to believe VTWC will stop at more locations?) Chiltern will start to look even better. If you're travelling from Solihull, Dorridge, Warwick etc. into London then it's still not a short journey and you don't have the other options so a three coach 'commuter' unit doesn't really cut it. My local station is Leamington and I personally arrange all my travel on Chiltern around the hauled sets as far as possible and have never actually used a turbo to go into London. If/when the hauled sets go all my travel to London will be shifted to Rugby (just slightly further away) for Virgin.

 

[The Planner]

I believe its no longer being planned due to infrastructure not being upto scratch and pared back to save money. However that is a shame. Links from High Wycombe area to Milton Keynes would be useful. Whilst the service from Marylebone to Milton Keynes via either High Wycombe or Amersham is unlikely intermediate journeys need to be considered. Intermediate journeys are becoming harder and harder to make as the quest for faster journeys between major cities intensifies.

Which infrastructure?

 

[The Ham]

As a replacement for Chilterns 168's and Loco hauled sets could either class 220/221/222's be used as it is likely that EMT will get new stock in their new franchise and the same could be true for XC. If the 220/221 trains operated mainline services then they could either operate as 8 or 10 car formations (9 car may be possible but I am not sure) or if the 222's were used then they could be reformed in to 4 and 8 car sets with the 4 cars operating in 8 coach formations and the 8 carriage sets on their own (this should be possible by removing 1 coach from 5 car sets and putting it it the 7 car sets. The first class on these trains could either be made smaller or removed.

There's few reasons why you couldn't just scrap some end coaches from the 22x fleet to form longer sets.

 

[island]

I've often wondered why "hotel power", as cruise ships now often use when they're in ports, hasn't been adopted more. You could make it so that it's simply part of the dispatch procedure - connect charger upon arrival, disconnection upon departure (ideally you'd want to retrofit a third rail style charging rail receiver).

You could extend it further and use it to energise flywheels which are then used for propulsion between stations. Like 139s on steroids.

 

[Aictos]

Stop, there's going to be a crayon shortage soon

Just pointing out in my view however wrong it may be that I think it's far more simpler to do that then waste time on a 4th rail/Diesel Hybrid.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Just pointing out in my view however wrong it may be that I think it's far more simpler to do that then waste time on a 4th rail/Diesel Hybrid.

In the long term, it might be worth analysing as a potential option when/if major upgrades are needed to replace any life expired parts of the electrification. But it's not something that should be done today, to replace perfectly working electrification (even if it's of the "wrong" type).

 

[317 forever]

There are other places that would benefit with electrification than Chiltern, like the GWML to Bristol/Oxford, and the rest of the MML.

Anyway, it definately needs something to replace the 168s on Birmingham runs, I've recently had a 3 car 168 which was full and standing from Banbury to Birmingham.

My own train from High Wycombe to Banbury just after Christmas was effectively 4 car. It was a refurbished 165 (328) paired up with another 165. Both units had been refurbished to Mainline standard.

 

[Starmill]

This means that Chiltern is competing with WMT on price (and, in many cases, beating them for Advances, with walk-up tickets only a small amount more)

Chiltern's Advances don't compete especially well with West Midlands Trains. You might find cheaper tickets in the middle of the day or at the weekend but you can get a £7 ticket from Birmingham to London at 0814 on WMT this coming Monday morning - the Chiltern trains in the morning peak have nothing comparable at all. They just so happen to undercut WMT on their headline fare by £1.50 but that's clearly deliberately done for marketing purposes, and availability at low prices is much more restricted.

They can compete far more on speed than price, but they're bang in the middle of the market there which isn't always a safe place to be.

there will be a reduction on the current 3tph service

This isn't a forgone conclusion. Politically a suggestion of that has proven quite difficult - especially with respect to Coventry.

 

[cactustwirly]

Chiltern's Advances don't compete especially well with West Midlands Trains. You might find cheaper tickets in the middle of the day or at the weekend but you can get a £7 ticket from Birmingham to London at 0814 on WMT this coming Monday morning - the Chiltern trains in the morning peak have nothing comparable at all. They just so happen to undercut WMT on their headline fare by £1.50 but that's clearly deliberately done for marketing purposes, and availability at low prices is much more restricted.

They can compete far more on speed than price, but they're bang in the middle of the market there which isn't always a safe place to be.

But from High Wycombe, you can travel for £3, which is pretty good!

 

[Starmill]

But from High Wycombe, you can travel for £3, which is pretty good!

To where? The cheapest ticket from High Wycombe to Birmingham is the same price as from London Marylebone.

 

[cactustwirly]

To where? The cheapest ticket from High Wycombe to Birmingham is the same price as from London Marylebone.

To Birmingham, used it a few times!

 

[KingDaveRa]

On the subject of electrification, I recall many (MANY) moons ago when the original Crossrail was being talked about, it was planned to extend to Aylesbury, via the Amersham line. The intention was to do OHLE, but I do recall lots of talk about it not being overly viable because there were too many low bridges, and there'd be a great deal needing rebuilding. Never say never - I know technology has moved on, and rigid OHLE is a possibility, but that's usually used in tunnels not under bridges as far as I know. Plus there's all the inevitable shenanigans it would cause from Amersham to Harrow. I think I've said this before, but a 'logical' solution may be to extend LU up to Aylesbury. It'd free capacity at Marylebone as the Aylesbury trains wouldn't be terminating there anymore. I'm sure the S stock would be able to match Chiltern's performance easily.

Thing to bear in mind is that Aylesbury has Garden Town status - the idea of building a town that is fairly self-sufficient. Rather than Aylesbury being yet another dormitory town for London, it should be providing a lot of its own employment and commuting internally. I get the feeling planners, government, et al would be more interested in supporting that by not making Aylesbury better connected to London.

In my opinion, not much has really changed since the line was upgraded in the early nineties. Train frequency has possibly increased a little, and Aylesbury Parkway was built, but that's about it. It's basically the same service, because I don't think there's much a ToC can do with the Amersham line. Chiltern Mainline, however, has changed massively, with Project Evergreen. Faster trains, better frequency, more stations and destinations - it's obvious where the investment lies.

So yeah; I reckon they'll drop the Amersham line out of the franchise, and pass it to LU. Or, it'll just stay exactly as is, albeit with newer, less polluting (hybrid?) rolling stock. The Chiltern Mainline would probably be heavily upgraded though, as it has such scope to do this.

 

[DanNCL]

But from High Wycombe, you can travel for £3, which is pretty good!

The cheapest advance fare is £3.65 and that's only with a railcard, without a railcard the cheapest one is £5.50.

 

[urpert]

I've often wondered why "hotel power", as cruise ships now often use when they're in ports, hasn't been adopted more. You could make it so that it's simply part of the dispatch procedure - connect charger upon arrival, disconnection upon departure (ideally you'd want to retrofit a third rail style charging rail receiver).

I remember being surprised the first time I saw a SBB buffet car with a pantograph on the roof. It would pop up as the train came to a stop in Lausanne station and provide hotel power to the buffet while a locomotive change happened.

 

[Starmill]

The cheapest advance fare is £3.65 and that's only with a railcard, without a railcard the cheapest one is £5.50.

Yes exactly the same as from London.

 

[DanNCL]

Yes exactly the same as from London.

Thought that was the case. The same works for other journeys on the Chiltern Main Line too - advances from Leamington Spa to London are the same price as the advances from Birmingham.

 

[cactustwirly]

The cheapest advance fare is £3.65 and that's only with a railcard, without a railcard the cheapest one is £5.50.

Yeah it's still pretty good, especially if you get a 68 set!

 

[train_lover]

Best solution is to replace all 168s on the Chiltern main line with ex GWR HST sets and send the 168s up to Scotland.

But more realistically I'd like to see Chiltern taking on some of these mk3 coaches that are now in storage and creating extra 68 sets. These could then replace some 168s that could be doubled up.

 

[FQ]

Best solution is to replace all 168s on the Chiltern main line with ex GWR HST sets and send the 168s up to Scotland.

But more realistically I'd like to see Chiltern taking on some of these mk3 coaches that are now in storage and creating extra 68 sets. These could then replace some 168s that could be doubled up.

As much as I'd love HSTs on my local line the 168s just don't have the power for the Scottish hills that the HSTs do.

That's definitely something I'd like to see but I find it highly unlikely I'd imagine. What I expect will happen is that the new operator will look at the costs of running the hauled sets and look to replace them with units, however appropriate, ASAP.