Chiltern franchise replacement thoughts?

[CyrusWuff]

I know it's a while off yet, with the current franchise currently due to expire in December 2021, but what sort of things do you think we'll see (or hope we'll see) in the next Chiltern franchise?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Midland metro to be ripped up and GWR route to Wolverhampton Low Level and Shropshire/Chester/ Wales restored.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Electrification and operation with a decent set of new EMUs.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Electrification and operation with a decent set of new EMUs.

Marylebone only London Termini without wires....though I suspect Daft will go out their way to to stop it happening.

 

[NickBucks]

Very similar thread under the Rolling Stock sub forum regarding Chiltern commuter numbers. I have posted my thoughts there.

 

[ainsworth74]

Electrification and operation with a decent set of new EMUs.

I mean that would be my choice. I always think when I use Chiltern that the route is crying out for electrification. Of course it's a bit complicated by sharing track with LU but that's not an insurmountable problem.

However, considering the recent turn from electrification by politicians, I can't see it happening anytime soon.

 

[birchesgreen]

Replacement DMUs could be battery-diesel bimodes so London Marylebone can become diesel free or at least head that way.

 

[jopsuk]

Electrification obviously.

Some strategy for boosting service to the London stations on the Mainline without adversely affecting the longer distance service

 

[NotATrainspott]

I wonder if there will be enough time to run a hydrogen trial first. A new franchise would be the ideal time for someone to do a total fleet replacement, and hydrogen might be the easiest way to remove diesel emissions entirely for now.

 

[pdeaves]

Marylebone only London Termini without wires....though I suspect Daft will go out their way to to stop it happening.

Except all the third rail ones!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder if there will be enough time to run a hydrogen trial first. A new franchise would be the ideal time for someone to do a total fleet replacement, and hydrogen might be the easiest way to remove diesel emissions entirely for now.

Hydrogen might be the right approach for branch lines where electrification is completely non-viable. It is not the right approach for a mainline.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I mean that would be my choice. I always think when I use Chiltern that the route is crying out for electrification. Of course it's a bit complicated by sharing track with LU but that's not an insurmountable problem.

Indeed not. There are a load of different options for that, but I think the one that would make most sense would just be to have dedicated dual-voltage (25kV and LU fourth rail) EMUs for use on the Aylesbury line, with the bits that presently aren't fourth rail being electrified to 25kV. It's not like that's even remotely new technology.

 

[The Ham]

Given that HS2 will start to impact on the long distance loadings on the Mainline services it could well be that there could be new services looked at.

The kind of obvious thing to do is add some or all of the East West Rail services, so Milton Keynes as an extension of there Aylesbury services.

Following that how about a new chord (given labs constants it would probably be at Oxford rather than Bicester) to allow Milton Keynes to Kiddiminster. As although there would likely be little end to end traffic it could provide some useful links that even after East West Rail would be difficult to do. Also even though MK to Birmingham would be quicker on the WCML the Chiltern service could result in an easier interchange to HS2 which could be attractive for some.

I wouldn't be surprised if we saw the wires get extended from Birmingham southwards to connect to Oxford before the Banbury to London section was looked at. Just as that could benefit the widest range of TOC's. It would also politically be seen as investing in areas other than London which could earn a lot of brownie points (although there will be some who will still see it as investment in the south rather than the north).

Going more controversial and thinking outside of the box, following the thought process for the Oxford services. How about a franchise that says "allocate to us the NR funding that would have for maintenance if we were to have an electrified railway and we'll spend that and have loans against our future maintenance savings as well as future income from other TOC's using our wires and we'll then start to invest in electrification of our lines."

They would probably also need some other government money, but probably still significantly less up front than if the government were to find it outright. I am very much expecting this to be criticised, however it's the sort of thinking that got them their last franchise.

 

[Albion91]

I'd do MK to Kidderminster almost end to end (Bletchley to Hagley), If the price was competitive with the WMT super off peak returns...

 

[The Ham]

I'd do MK to Kidderminster almost end to end (Bletchley to Hagley), If the price was competitive with the WMT super off peak returns...

Given that Banbury to Kiddiminster is £21 and MK to Kiddiminster is about £40 comparable prices should be possible.

 

[Mikey C]

I mean that would be my choice. I always think when I use Chiltern that the route is crying out for electrification. Of course it's a bit complicated by sharing track with LU but that's not an insurmountable problem.

However, considering the recent turn from electrification by politicians, I can't see it happening anytime soon.

With London really cracking down on diesel vehicles, electric buses now being tried out and the clean air emission zone coming in, running diesels into Marylebone into the distant future will be politically unacceptable in London. Some sort of plan will have to be formulated, whether full or part electrification, hydrogen, batteries or whatever.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Here's hoping for some infrastructure enhancement and the operation of services towards Old Oak Common. It would prove particularly handy for the punters. That said, you'd need to remodel Northolt Jn and South Ruislip all over again.

Would be grand to see a four-track as far as High Wycombe so that a better Metro service could operate. Also four-track Leamington to Moor Street. Would also like to see the opening of new platforms at West Hampstead (somehow), the transfer of operation of a High Wycombe to Maidenhead service and new homes at Loudwater to Chiltern, new platforms at Greenford on an upgraded New North and the operation of East West Rail Link services from Princes Risborough to Milton Keynes every 30 minutes and no direct through long service via Wycombe as it is frankly pointless and creates conflicting moves at Risborough. Also the transfer of the Oxford to Banbury stopper to Chiltern and the extension of that through to Coventry; as there is insufficient pathing for a Leamington to Nuneaton apparently! Kenilworth therefore gets a through train to Banbury and Oxford.

E.g.
2tph Old Oak Common - High Wycombe
Old Oak Common, Greenford (new platforms), Denham, Gerrards Cross, Beaconsfield, High Wycombe.

2tph Marylebone - High Wycombe
West Hampstead, Wembley Stadium, Sudbury & Harrow Road, Sudbury Hill Harrow, Northolt Park, South Ruislip, West Ruislip, Denham, Denham Golf Club, Gerrards Cross, Seer Green, Beaconsfield, High Wycombe.

2tph Marylebone - Moor Street fast
West Hampstead, Banbury, Leamington Spa, Warwick, Warwick Parkway, Solihull, Moor Street.

1tph Marylebone - Snow Hill semi-fast
West Hampstead, Beaconsfield, High Wycombe, Saunderton, Princes Risborough, Haddenham & Thame Parkway, Bicester North, Banbury, Leamington Spa, Wawick, Warwick Parkway, Hatton, Dorridge, Widney Manor, Solihull, Moor Street, Snow Hill.

2tph Marylebone - Oxford fast
West Hampstead, Princes Risborough, Haddenham & Thame Parkway*, Bicester Village, Islip*, Oxford Parkway, Oxford.
*One of the two trains an hour.

1tph Marylebone - Stratford on Avon
West Hampstead, Gerrards Cross, Beaconsfield, High Wycombe, Princes Risborough, Bicester North, Kings Sutton, Banbury, Leamington Spa, Warwick, Warwick Parkway, Hatton, Lapworth, Claverdon, Bearley, Stratford Parkway, Stratford on Avon.

4tph Marylebone - Aylesbury Vale Parkway via Amersham
West Hampstead, Harrow on the Hill and stations to Aylesbury Vale Parkway.

2tph Princes Risborough - Milton Keynes Ctl
Local stations to Aylesbury Vale, Winslow, Bletchley, Milton Keynes Ctl.

1tph Oxford to Coventry
Oxford, Tackley, Heyford, Banbury, Leaminton Spa, Kenilworth, Coventry.

Transfer Leamington to Moor Street stopper into West Mids Railway. Therefore WMR offers:
2tph Stratford on Avon to Stourbridge Jn
2tph Whitlocks End to Worcester area
2tph Leamington Spa to Kidderminster
2tph Dorridge to Kidderminster

 

[DarloRich]

although this is miles off and I hate these kind of threads the obvious issue is the interaction with E-W rail. That should offer lots of new journey opportunities

 

[southerner2174]

1tph Marylebone - Stratford on Avon
West Hampstead, Gerrards Cross, Beaconsfield, High Wycombe, Princes Risborough, Bicester North, Kings Sutton, Banbury, Leamington Spa, Warwick, Warwick Parkway, Hatton, Lapworth, Claverdon, Bearley, Stratford Parkway, Stratford on Avon.

Not sure that the service can call at Lapworth without some signalling changes and crossovers put in?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Not sure that the service can call at Lapworth without some signalling changes and crossovers put in?

Think I meant Hatton, Claverdon, Bearley, Wilmcote, Stratford Parkway, Stratford on Avon...

 

[Railwaysceptic]

although this is miles off and I hate these kind of threads the obvious issue is the interaction with E-W rail. That should offer lots of new journey opportunities

Agreed. The only other really useful change to the current situation would be longer trains!

 

[Darkinsider]

deleted

 

[Bletchleyite]

HS2's perceived impact will be really interesting on the Chiltern. Next franchise may well be a very short management one until HS2 opens with nothing happening. Possibly Marylebone to Aylesbury going to London Overground plus the Wycombe terminators.

LO wouldn't make any sense to me. LU might, though - would permission be obtained to extend fourth rail? Could a follow-on S-stock order be obtained with mostly transverse seating and a pantograph and transformer if not?

 

[aylesbury]

I hope that LU do not ever run services to Aylesbury ,the S stock whilst suited to Amersham M/ B its not to Aylesbury and Duchlands is not a small climb so any talk of this is a non starter.Our current service is excellent and fast with comfortable trains in an interior layout that works for our lines.All the talk of HS2 wiping out Chiltern is misjudged as the services provided by Chiltern are important to residents of the Chiltern hills and Oxfordshire providing frequent fast services to the capital and Birmingham from the locale unlike HS2 .When we reach Brum we have access the entire UK without heading into London without the current lines one hour to Brum becomes two hours to save fifteen minutes no way thank you.

 

[Mikey C]

LO wouldn't make any sense to me. LU might, though - would permission be obtained to extend fourth rail? Could a follow-on S-stock order be obtained with mostly transverse seating and a pantograph and transformer if not?

If the Croxley extension had been built, then that would have been 4th rail, so I don't see why the Aylesbury couldn't be 4th rail as well if they wanted it to be a straight extension of the Metropolitan Line, even if it does sound like a rather distant location for the Underground to once again operate to!

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the Croxley extension had been built, then that would have been 4th rail, so I don't see why the Aylesbury couldn't be 4th rail as well if they wanted it to be a straight extension of the Metropolitan Line, even if it does sound like a rather distant location for the Underground to once again operate to!

The Met is probably more like the original Crossrail than classic LU, to be fair

 

[absolutelymilk]

Anyone know the platform lengths on the Chiltern Main Line, i.e. is there space to introduce longer trains from London to Birmingham?

 

[coppercapped]

I know it's a while off yet, with the current franchise currently due to expire in December 2021, but what sort of things do you think we'll see (or hope we'll see) in the next Chiltern franchise?

The franchising process could be very different by 2021, by then the Williams Review will have reported and at least parts of it may well have been actioned. It is quite likely that Network Rail and the franchises will have evolved further and the organisational and legal framework will not be the same as today.

So, all bets are off...

...unless the only topic for discussion is train service patterns and traction.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I think:

• Replacing the turbos with new rolling stock
• Extending the Moor Street services to Snow Hill
• Possible upgrades of signalling (Digital Technology) on the routes
• Introduction of the ‘Chiltern metro’
• Acton-Northolt Line reopening and introduce new services to Old Oak Common with two new platforms

Could there be new ‘InterCity’ trains for Birmingham and Oxford services and other services getting new metro style stock?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Whilst I agree with much of the sentiment shown in others' posts here, I think a few things need to be borne in mind.

Firstly, Chiltern's fleet is relatively new. Wholesale replacement isn't entirely off the cards but at the moment I would be surprised if it happened. At best, some of the older stock (Turbos etc.) might be cascaded down to the likes of Northern, to replace 150s/156s.

Secondly, the line has had a lot of investment put in it to get it to its current status, however many of the schemes were ultimately the easier ones to do out of all the possible options (in the bigger picture of rail infrastructure upgrades). For example, the addition of the Bicester Curve was a few hundred yards of extra track (although of course there was substantial other work done on the already existing line). The redoubling of Princes Risborough northwards was back to what had once been a double track alignment - i.e. no major earthworks were required. The line is thus, in the main, as upgraded as it could realistically be, within the bounds of the existing infrastructure. Further upgrades are always physically possible, but it will be on the basis of ever decreasing cost-benefit ratios. For one, I see the quadrupling of the line to High Wycombe as an idea worth considering, but unlikely to happen any time soon.

Thirdly, Marylebone is a major pinch point currently. It has 'only' 6 platforms, and to expand it any further would require a reduction in siding capacity (which is much needed to balance out the peaks with appropriate length trains for the off-peak), and/or substantial demolition of nearby properties - which is likely to be very unpopular and expensive.

Fourthly, the impact of East-West Rail is no doubt going to be a significant factor, but I think you have to be sensible about what is realistically possible. EW is clearly being done 'on the cheap'. No electrification, low linespeeds. That says it all. I therefore doubt that there will ever be the market for through trains from Milton Keynes to Kidderminster, for example, as it's inevitably going to be so much slower than the more direct route.

I think the impact of HS2 is probably not going to be as significant as some might think, as it doesn't decrease journey times for most of the network and thus isn't, as such, any more attractive than the existing options.

In the very, very long term I think the potential for improvements is there - e.g. thinking about introducing some faster (110+?) stock - but this line has had a lot of improvements in, in railway terms, a very short time.