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Chiltern First Class?

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voyagerdude220

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Hi all,

Apologies if already discussed on here, I couldn't find an answer..

With Chiltern now using some of the old TPE MK5 rolling stock, their website states that you can upgrade to First Class, but it doesn't state how much upgrades are. I was thinking about possibly going on one from Birmingham Moor Street to London Marylebone.

Thanks.
 
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Kite159

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The newer coaches are not in service yet, the former 'business zone' seating (aka 1st class) on the Mk3s is declassified if you want to enjoy the comfort at no extra cost
 

Belperpete

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The newer coaches are not in service yet, the former 'business zone' seating (aka 1st class) on the Mk3s is declassified if you want to enjoy the comfort at no extra cost
The last time I travelled in it, it was obvious that most people were unaware of this and moved down the platform to one of the standard class coaches.
 

CyrusWuff

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One thing to note about the Mk5A rakes compared to the Mk3s is that the First Class vehicle is next to the loco, so will be at the buffer stops end at Moor Street. On the Mk3s, it's next to the DVT, thus at the buffer stops end at Marylebone.

It remains to be seen what Chiltern are planning to do in terms of charging though.
 

Nova1

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The last time I travelled in it, it was obvious that most people were unaware of this and moved down the platform to one of the standard class coaches.
The only people that know are the morning commuters, regularly full by Banbury going south!
But off peak, deserted.
 

Kite159

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It says on the Chiltern website here: https://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/our-fleet/new-trains/first-class that it is £20 First Class upgrade on the Chiltern Explorer Trains, pay on board to the train manager. However it also says here: https://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/our-fleet/new-trains (expand "is there going to be first class") that First Class tickets will be introduced in December 2026.
At the moment it's pay on the day (unless you already hold a First Class ticket or pass which I presume would be valid), with FC fares coming back in December.
 

Peter Mugridge

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Thanks, which diagram is now mk5, please?
I'll refer you to the Chiltern Mk 5 thread as this one is in the fares section and therefore not the right place to discuss diagrams; we don't want the moderators jumping up and down on us... :)

Ignore the text displayed in the preview box below - the link is to the relevant post but the displayed text is always from the first post on the relevant page:




Edited: Typo
 
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ChilliSauce

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At the moment it's pay on the day (unless you already hold a First Class ticket or pass which I presume would be valid), with FC fares coming back in December.
I looked up BR fare setter for London Terminals to Either Birmingham NS or Moor Street and the Anytime Singles (including 1st class) are from London Terminals


So I am hope I am right in assumption that if a 1st Class Anytime Single was presented on a Chiltern Service with 1st class accommodation that Chiltern Railways would recognise and accept that their £20 upgrade fee did not apply.

Because how can Chiltern upgrade a ticket to 1st class that is already a 1st class ticket and is valid via any permitted route.
 

Egg Centric

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What about this is first class that old business zone space isn't? Aside from pricing I mean. In both cases you are getting better quality 2+1 seating that back in the day used to be called first by someone else.
 

Kite159

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I looked up BR fare setter for London Terminals to Either Birmingham NS or Moor Street and the Anytime Singles (including 1st class) are from London Terminals


So I am hope I am right in assumption that if a 1st Class Anytime Single was presented on a Chiltern Service with 1st class accommodation that Chiltern Railways would recognise and accept that their £20 upgrade fee did not apply.

Because how can Chiltern upgrade a ticket to 1st class that is already a 1st class ticket and is valid via any permitted route.
But if you are paying out that sort of money for an Avanti 1st class ticket, why would you use the much slower Chiltern service where all you get extra is a slightly better seat
 

yorkie

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Do any services advertise 1st in the timetable? If not, an upgrade can't lawfully be demanded in my opinion, until they amend that.
 

Jan Mayen

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Do any services advertise 1st in the timetable? If not, an upgrade can't lawfully be demanded in my opinion, until they amend that.
But which timetable? Online? On a noticeboard somewhere?
Presumably they could lock First Class OOU until it's advertised.
 

CyrusWuff

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Do any services advertise 1st in the timetable? If not, an upgrade can't lawfully be demanded in my opinion, until they amend that.
Condition 15 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel disagrees with your assertion.

NRCoT said:
15. Using First Class Accommodation
15.1 Some train services include first class accommodation. Where first class accommodation is available, the relevant seats and area(s) of the train will be clearly marked. Unless Train Company staff, or notices on the train give you specific permission, you cannot travel in first class accommodation (including standing in corridors or passageways) with a standard class Ticket. This applies even if there are no vacant seats in standard class.

15.2 A standard class Ticket can in most cases be upgraded to first class. Where this is the case, you should pay the additional fare due before you board the train. The amount you pay will be the difference between the fare you have already paid and the appropriate first class fare for the journey you wish to make.

15.3 Some Train Companies allow you to upgrade on the train on payment of a supplement. Where this is the case, it will be made clear by announcements or notices.

15.4 If you travel in first class accommodation without a valid first class Ticket or permission from staff to occupy that accommodation, Condition 9 will apply.
No mention is made of a requirement to indicate the presence of First Class in the eNRT.
 

yorkie

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Condition 15 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel disagrees with your assertion.


No mention is made of a requirement to indicate the presence of First Class in the eNRT.
It doesn't need to be; it's simple contract / consumer law. This is why the longstanding principle exists, that if a train is advertised as only conveying Standard accommodation, then any 1st class carriages are contractually considered to be Standard class.

If they are not locked out of use, then they can be used by any passenger holding a standard ticket.

I don't see why Chiltern need to make this difficult and act in a combative manner during this transition period; all they need to do is advertise the relevant trains as conveying first class and not price any first class fares on the Chiltern route, therefore only charging supplements on board when it's available. On rare occasions, a passenger holding a longer distance 1st class ticket may use such a train and be entitled to some compensation, but that would be miniscule.

Alternatively, simply declassify them, as already done.

Chiltern used to get things right, so there is no need for them to change and start becoming combative. There is just no need for it.

If they do start denying carriage to people holding Standard class tickets, and they do this to the wrong people, they could end up with an expensive court case. Some TOCs have had to pay out thousands of pounds in compensation when denying people their contractual rights over various matters recently (e.g. enforcing non-existent time restrictions), and I would advise Chiltern to exercise caution, and act in a sensible and lawful manner, if they don't want to be in that position over this matter, as I could easily see that happening.
 
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