Chiltern Fare Evasion Notice

[NAR14]

Hi all,

I wanted to get some advice from forum members regarding a fare evasion notice I am due to recieve...

The sunday before last...I travelled to Marylebone from High Wycombe. I intended to buy a ticket at the station, however, I arrived at platform 3 and the ticket office there was closed...and the self service machine did not accept the cash I had.

I decided to board the train as the wait for the next (slower train) would have made me late. I fully intended to get the ticket at the excess fare window at mbone. When i arrived at mbone..there was a large queue at the excess fares window...i initially queued..but then decided it would be quicker to purchase a ticket via trainline website (I usually do not use the app as I prefer a physical ticket).

So I purchased the ticket via trainline...and then was about to proceed through the barrier when i was *accosted* by a fraud inspector. At which point he proceeded to attempt to lecture me that i had broken a byelaw...and that my outbound ticket was not valid. Really felt like I was treated unfairly...offered to pay the 100 fine...to no avial

I Would like forum members opinion on this...I think my mitigation is strong...and I have never had an issue with chiltern railways (season ticket holder for close to a decade).

I didnt admit to the offense on the form as said I would seek legal advice first given the mitigating circumstances.

Opinions? I've consulted a solicitior and am extremely keen to avoid magistrates court

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

The sunday before last...I travelled to Marylebone from High Wycombe. I intended to buy a ticket at the station, however, I arrived at platform 3 and the ticket office there was closed...and the self service machine did not accept the cash I had.

If you were intending to use cash to purchase your ticket then there is nothing wrong with boarding the train and paying at the first opportunity. This would either be onboard (unikely with Chiltern as they operate driver only trains between High Wucombe and London) or upon arrival at your destination.

I decided to board the train as the wait for the next (slower train) would have made me late.

I'm not sure what the relevence of this? You are not required to delay your journey if the ticket office is closed and the TVM doesn't accept your chosen method of payment. You do however need to arrive at the station with sufficient time to purchase a ticket, although how you shoudl allow isn't defined.

When i arrived at mbone..there was a large queue at the excess fares window...i initially queued..but then decided it would be quicker to purchase a ticket via trainline website (I usually do not use the app as I prefer a physical ticket).

So you wanted to use cash to pay for your ticket but then decided to purchase a ticket online and pay by card. Why didn't you do that at High Wycombe? How did you print your physical ticket? Think about how this looks to Chiltern...

So I purchased the ticket via trainline...and then was about to proceed through the barrier when i was *accosted* by a fraud inspector. At which point he proceeded to attempt to lecture me that i had broken a byelaw...and that my outbound ticket was not valid. Really felt like I was treated unfairly...offered to pay the 100 fine...to no avial

You are required to purchase a ticket before boarding the train if ticket issuingf facilities are available, and you are guilty of a criminal offence if you do not do so. Had you maintained your position of wanting to pay cash then there would be no issue, but the problem you've got is that you paid by card which you could have done using the ticket machinbe at High Wycombe. There is no entitlement to be issued with a Penalty Fare, and not all staff are authorised to issue them, so the train company has the power to decide how to proceed.

I don't think your mitigation is particularly strong. As for what will happen next Chiltern or an investigation company wil contact you asking for your version of events before deciding how to proceed. Feel free to post a copy of this letter in this thread (with personal details redacted) along with you draft reply and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you. I expect you will be able to obtain an administrative settlement as long as you haven't come to Chiltern's attention before and would expect it to cost around £100 plus the outstanding fare.

 

[NAR14]

Thanks Hadders, appreciate the detailed response/forum support.

Re: the later train significance...the ticket office at the front of the station would have been open presumably - however, would have been a lengthy walk - which would have made me late.

I didnt physically have my bank card with me, rather I had the bank details stored in the app. And cash - which I wanted to use to obtain a physical ticket

 

[AlterEgo]

Deleted / misread post.

 

[Tallguy]

The provision of ticketing facilities at platform 3 at High Wycombe is abysmal. I used it 10 days ago where the ticket office was open but couldn’t accept cards, a member of Chiltern staff was trying to sell tickets using some sort of phone app linked to 2 separate printers which took forever and the sole TVM which is frequently broken was resetting itself between each transaction. Chiltern desperately need an additional TVM or better still to staff the ticket window on platform 3 throughout the day. Hate to think of how much revenue is being lost….

 

[Adlington]

Hate to think of how much revenue is being lost….

Don't you worry: lost revenue (and more) is recovered in penalty fares....

 

[NAR14]

Any advice from forum members whether it is worthwhile asking the solicitor to send a reply to the fare evasion letter? I spoke to a solicitor, and he advised that he has had 100% sucess in avoiding prosecution from chiltern railways.

Additionally, does anyone have a definitive answer whether (worst case scenario) a conviction shows up on a CRB check? The fraud inspector at marylebone advised that as its only a byelaw, it will not show up on a CRB/be recorded on the PNC.

Thanks

 

[Hadders]

Personally, I would not engage a solicitor at this point. I would send a reply to their initial letter and if this results in a court summons that would be the appropriate point to engage a solicitor.

There are plenty of examples on this forum of people obtaining an out of court settlement without needing to use a solicitor.

On the subject of DBS checks (as they are now called), it depends on which offence you’re found guilty of. If it’s a Regulation of the Railways Act then it will be recorded on the Police National Computer and disclosed on a standard DBS check until the conviction is spent.

If you are found guilty of a Bylaw offence then this isn’t normally recorded on the Police National Computer and won’t be appear on a standard DBS check. It has been known for mistakes to happen in recording Bylaw offences in the PNC, and in some cases where a high level of security clearance is required Bylaw offences might be disclosed. A conviction for a minor railway ticketing offence should’ve normally be a cause for concern in most occupations but I would recommend being honest with a future potential employer.

 

[NAR14]

Personally, I would not engage a solicitor at this point. I would send a reply to their initial letter and if this results in a court summons that would be the appropriate point to engage a solicitor.

There are plenty of examples on this forum of people obtaining an out of court settlement without needing to use a solicitor.

On the subject of DBS checks (as they are now called), it depends on which offence you’re found guilty of. If it’s a Regulation of the Railways Act then it will be recorded on the Police National Computer and disclosed on a standard DBS check until the conviction is spent.

If you are found guilty of a Bylaw offence then this isn’t normally recorded on the Police National Computer and won’t be appear on a standard DBS check. It has been known for mistakes to happen in recording Bylaw offences in the PNC, and in some cases where a high level of security clearance is required Bylaw offences might be disclosed. A conviction for a minor railway ticketing offence should’ve normally be a cause for concern in most occupations but I would recommend being honest with a future potential employer.

Thanks

 

[Tallguy]

Don't you worry: lost revenue (and more) is recovered in penalty fares....

Chiltern have so many understaffed stations it would be quite possible to do a number of journeys without buying a ticket, couple that with few ticket checks south of Banbury….

 

[ChewChewTrain]

Not to contradict @Hadders, whose expertise is pretty much unmatched here, but there have been examples on this forum of people getting good and swift results with solicitors. You’ll appreciate that nothing is guaranteed, but people have obtained settlement offers within days, without having to wait for the railway to write to them.

If the prospect of having this hanging over you for probably months bothers you enough that you’re prepared to pay (probably) a few hundred (on top of any settlement) to minimise the chances of having to endure that, then perhaps a solicitor would be worth considering. I can’t really say whether this option would also increase your chances of obtaining a settlement offer versus following advice given here when writing back.

It does definitely need to be a specialist in this area. Penman Sedgwick is often mentioned here but I’m not recommending them or anyone else.

 

[NAR14]

Not to contradict @Hadders, whose expertise is pretty much unmatched here, but there have been examples on this forum of people getting good and swift results with solicitors. You’ll appreciate that nothing is guaranteed, but people have obtained settlement offers within days, without having to wait for the railway to write to them.

If the prospect of having this hanging over you for probably months bothers you enough that you’re prepared to pay (probably) a few hundred (on top of any settlement) to minimise the chances of having to endure that, then perhaps a solicitor would be worth considering. I can’t really say whether this option would also increase your chances of obtaining a settlement offer versus following advice given here when writing back.

It does definitely need to be a specialist in this area. Penman Sedgwick is often mentioned here but I’m not recommending them or anyone else.

Thanks. I've emailed them. I am confident I can reach a settlement given the context/cirmcumstances. Think a response to Chiltern Railways from the solicitors has more gravity..and may well expedite a settlement.

It's soo frustrating this couldnt have been dealt with in a more flexible manner by the inspector...The ticket office at platform 3 HW was closed...and the self service machine didnt accept my cash...I have tickets from the 2 days prior purchased at platform 3 (which demonstrates I pay for my trips!)

Grateful for this forum though...has alleviated my concerns - I immediately assumed the worst possible outcome after the incident

 

[NAR14]

Hi All,

I posted on this forum last week regarding a fare evasion notice I recieved on the 26th March.

I'm grateful for the feedback/support recieved, but this fare evasion situation (completely unfair!) Is bothering me.

I've being as proactive as I can..i have spoken to half a dozen solicitors in the past week..one, who has deep expertise dealing in this area/with Chiltern, advised that TIL are taking a more aggressive approach to prosecutions of late...and are not particulary attentive (i.e. very generic responses)

Has anyone had *recent* dealings with TIL/Chiltern.

Thanks

 

[Hadders]

Have you received your letter from Chiltern/TIL yet? If so what does it say, can you post a copy on this thread with personal details redacted. I know you feel that what has happened is unfair but you travelled without a ticket and that is a criminal offence, however harsh it might sound.

There have been many cases involving CHiltern on this forum recently, there are certainly taking a harsher line to fare evasion but that doesn't mean a settlement isn't possible. Many of the cases involve Wembley Stadium station so a quick search for those reveals the following recent threads:

Stress and worried prosecution

Hi I try make this short as possible in July I was travelling in a rush and my Trainline app wouldn’t let me purchase a ticket. However afterwards I caught the wrong train which made me more stressed. Finally I got to my destination but I remembered I didn’t purchase a ticket so I loaded the...

www.railforums.co.uk

Chiltern Railway - TIL Letter 9 months after event

Hi All, I was stopped by TIL back in January and posted on here before and received a lot of helpful advice. I was told by you guys that I would likely receive my letter within a few weeks, well I have received my letter and it is dated in September, some 9 months after the event. I know...

www.railforums.co.uk

Wrong Ticket - Chiltern Railways

Hi all, You’ve probably heard this all before but i’m a little worried about this situation. Here are the facts: I travel regularly from Bicester North to Marylebone. 3 times PW typically. To note I have a valid railcard I use to. One time, two weeks ago, I forgot to buy my ticket from...

www.railforums.co.uk

Letter from TIL - Should my friend seek legal advice?

Hi, I am writing on a behalf of a friend who has received a letter from TIL regarding a train journey made August this year where he failed to produce a valid ticket and was questioned by a railway revenue protection staff at the time. The stations where you started & finished your journey...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[NAR14]

Hello,

I have now received a letter of intended prosecution from Chiltern Railways. Any advice on the best response would be appreciated.

Thanks

 

[Hadders]

I recommend you include the following points in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Keep your reply short and concise, don't give a sob story. Most train companies are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and the train company is within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court.

Chiltern often use Transport Investigations Limited to deal with many of their cases, they do also deal with some cases in-house but these tend to be more serious cases, which on the face of it I wouldn't say this is a serious case. Have you done this sort things before? Chiltern will be able to access your on-line ticketing accounts - what would it show? Is there a history of tickets purchased from High Wycombe that have been scanned at Marylebone shortly after purchase? Is there anything else that could indicate a problem like tickets purchased from Wembley Stadium to Marylebone? You aren't required to incriminate yourself, and they aren't saying that they have further information but if there is anything significant then it is probably best to be up front about it rather than letting them find it out for themselves.

If you are offered a settlement the amount varies depending on the train company and circumstances but tend to be around £100 plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

Feel free to post a copy of your draft reply in this thread and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

 

[NAR14]

Thanks Hadders - appreciate the advice.

I have never had any issues previously...and I have only ever purchased a small number of tickets via trainline - all above aboard.

I've drafted an initial response - any feedback appreciated:

Dear Sir/Madam,

Firstly, I would like to take the opportunity to apologise for not adhering to the rules/regulations. I (now) fully recognise the significance of these rules/regulations, and the importance of ensuring that I always have a valid ticket prior to travelling.

In mitigation:

On the 23rd March 2023, I arrived at platform 3 High Wycombe with the intention of travelling to Marylebone. The ticket office at platform 3 was closed, and the self service ticket machine did not accept 50 pound notes (the only cash I had with me - I showed this to the revenue officer).

I boarded the train with the intention of purchasing a ticket at the excess fares window at Marylebone / on the train if available. When I arrived at Marylebone, I joined the queue for the excess fare window - but there was a long/slow moving queue. As I was in a rush to attend a meeting, I decided to purchase a ticket via the trainline app - which I did. Reference xxxxx. The reason I did not attempt to purchase a ticket via the trainline app prior to starting the journey is that when I am travelling for work, I purchase physical tickets for record keeping/expense purposes.

I have attached a copy of tickets I purchased from platform 3 HW on the 2 days prior (21/22nd March) to demonstrate that I usually purchase my physical tickets from platform 3.

I have also attached a copy of my Chiltern Railways bank transactions - prior to becoming an independent consultant, I have been a loyal customer/regular season ticket holder for close to 10 years, and have spent over 30,000 pounds with Chiltern railways.

I would really appreciate the opportunity to settle this matter out of court, and am happy to pay any fine/expense. It's an expensive lesson learnt, but I will ensure that I *always* have a valid ticket before travelling in the future.

Kind regards,

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks Hadders - appreciate the advice.

I have never had any issues previously...and I have only ever purchased a small number of tickets via trainline - all above aboard.

I've drafted an initial response - any feedback appreciated:

Dear Sir/Madam,

Firstly, I would like to take the opportunity to apologise for not adhering to the rules/regulations. I (now) fully recognise the significance of these rules/regulations, and the importance of ensuring that I always have a valid ticket prior to travelling.

In mitigation:

On the 23rd March 2023, I arrived at platform 3 High Wycombe with the intention of travelling to Marylebone. The ticket office at platform 3 was closed, and the self service ticket machine did not accept 50 pound notes (the only cash I had with me - I showed this to the revenue officer).

I boarded the train with the intention of purchasing a ticket at the excess fares window at Marylebone / on the train if available. When I arrived at Marylebone, I joined the queue for the excess fare window - but there was a long/slow moving queue. As I was in a rush to attend a meeting, I decided to purchase a ticket via the trainline app - which I did. Reference xxxxx. The reason I did not attempt to purchase a ticket via the trainline app prior to starting the journey is that when I am travelling for work, I purchase physical tickets for record keeping/expense purposes.

I have attached a copy of tickets I purchased from platform 3 HW on the 2 days prior (21/22nd March) to demonstrate that I usually purchase my physical tickets from platform 3.

I have also attached a copy of my Chiltern Railways bank transactions - prior to becoming an independent consultant, I have been a loyal customer/regular season ticket holder for close to 10 years, and have spent over 30,000 pounds with Chiltern railways.

I would really appreciate the opportunity to settle this matter out of court, and am happy to pay any fine/expense. It's an expensive lesson learnt, but I will ensure that I *always* have a valid ticket before travelling in the future.

Kind regards,

Looks pretty good to me! And IMHO well done for pointing out your general customer loyalty.

 

[Hadders]

I agree this is fine. Do let us know how you get on.

 

[NAR14]

Does anyone have an idea of usual response time from Chiltern Railways Fraud team?? It's been 2 weeks since I emailed them - no response?

 

[Hadders]

Fiddicult to be definitive but I'd expect it to take longer than two weeks.

 

[NAR14]

Fiddicult to be definitive but I'd expect it to take longer than two weeks.

Sure. Thanks

 

[zain06]

Does anyone have an idea of usual response time from Chiltern Railways Fraud team?? It's been 2 weeks since I emailed them - no response?

i screwed up and did the same as you, trip from Risborough, one away from wycombe to Mbone, inspector stopped me at Mbone and i said i was sorry etc, still took my details, that was around early april, just yesterday Late June, i got a letter randomly from TIL asking to pay 49.10 for admin costs and cost of a rail ticket and nothing more will be pursued, hopefully if yours is also a one off, it seems to be they’re slightly lenient and won’t bother pursuing you in court if you are sorry and willing to pay for their wasted time + ticket.