Chiltern failure to tell passengers which platform.

[jon0844]

Have you seen what it can be like if two trains are arriving at King's Cross platforms 10 and 11 fairly close together, or one has arrived and another alongside is announced for departure - or people are all waiting to get on the incoming service that is in itself quite crowded (e.g. around 6pm where it's peak out of London and also incoming trains are full of people who work out of London or returning from a day out)?

I am sure A-driver can confirm that there are times where there is a definite safety concern due to overcrowding and people going against each other - combined with those who cause obstructions because they might be waiting for the train behind ('b') that they know is going to be leaving after even when it hasn't been announced yet...

 

[transmanche]

Bonus points for cyclists with their lights on in the platform area. (Hint: Showing a train driver a red light = Stop...)

And how often do staff ask the cyclist to switch off their rear light - and explain why? I doubt it would occur to many people that there is a good safety reason for the rule - even amongst those who are aware there actually is a rule!

 

[A-driver]

Have you seen what it can be like if two trains are arriving at King's Cross platforms 10 and 11 fairly close together, or one has arrived and another alongside is announced for departure - or people are all waiting to get on the incoming service that is in itself quite crowded (e.g. around 6pm where it's peak out of London and also incoming trains are full of people who work out of London or returning from a day out)?

I am sure A-driver can confirm that there are times where there is a definite safety concern due to overcrowding and people going against each other - combined with those who cause obstructions because they might be waiting for the train behind ('b') that they know is going to be leaving after even when it hasn't been announced yet...

It's worse when you are trying to couple up to form an evening peak service out. Trying to get the doors closed is almost impossible and you make an announcment, close the doors and people panic, shout at you for 'leaving early'' jam themselves in the doors to let others on etc. and then stand over you breathing down your neck to get you to hurry up whilst you do the necessary checks to ensure the units won't split in service (when they do that to me I just go as slow as possible with re-opening the doors...) I once actually had to ask someone 3 times to move so I could get between the units to view the pins had dropped correctly-he wasn't moving!

Platforms should definately be closed to the public when attaching units in the peak as far as I'm concerned, although most of the time the train hasn't been advertised but regulars just assume its the right platform.

 

[306024]

And how often do staff ask the cyclist to switch off their rear light - and explain why? I doubt it would occur to many people that there is a good safety reason for the rule - even amongst those who are aware there actually is a rule!

Done it twice, and both times the cyclists were polite and apologised once they understood why.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Platforms should definately be closed to the public when attaching units in the peak as far as I'm concerned, although most of the time the train hasn't been advertised but regulars just assume its the right platform.

That's the case at Liverpool St when units attach before the evening peak, but there is no attaching after about 16.30.

A different example which can cause a crowd is in the morning peak at Liverpool St if you get an arrival off the up main into platform 14 at the same time as an arrival off the up electric into platform 15, which share a common island. There must be several other places where trains can arrive side by side at the same time and cause similar crowding.

 

[transmanche]

Done it twice, and both times the cyclists were polite and apologised once they understood why.

I'm pleased to hear that - it's how it should be.

(I asked the question because I've seen cyclists who weren't told by staff, or those who just told them to switch off the lights - but without explaining why.)

 

[corfield]

Read the pages with interest, I can understand the operational issues better but it still seems abysmally poor planning and management to permit a situation like that to develop and to do nothing about it.

I've had no reply to my email complaint (I mentioned the lack of an automatic reply as that seems to be common with most companies as an initial response - no idea if I should expect one from Chiltern). I will check the address and resend.

With 2242, 2245 & 2248 all going from the same platform and with the T-2 rule, Chiltern were in effect planning for a 1 minute window in which the information would be available.

(In the context of a 2tph service at that time of night - miss your minute and youve a long wait).

My wife mentioned that below this and other services was "Delayed Boarding" showing on the main screen.

Hence Chiltern knew this situation would be as it was, well before it happened.

That is just utterly stupid. It isnt even planning, its just sitting there thumb up arse and not giving a damn to even consider the reality of customers actually needing know where their train is.

All it needed as a bare minimum was a station PA announcement and 80%+ of the confusion would have been eliminated.

It definately seems to be the policy at Marylebone to leave it right up to the last minute, which has to be stupid in terms of facilitating the development of mistakes such as this and discriminating against those of lesser mobility.

This never used to happen but now seems ubiqutous on every service I use.

They need to get a grip because informing passengers in order that they can move the 50m from concourse to their train in time to board it is pretty much 101 of running a railway.

If Chiltern, management and/or staff cant do this, they should bog off and let someone else try.

Ps. Im not sure there were any/many other trains in the 2030-2055 window, so whilst Marylebone is stuck with relatively few platforms as a terminus, they dont appear to have been making best use of what they do have.

 

[barrykas]

The official contact details for Chiltern Customer Services are:

Post: Customer Services, Chiltern Railways, Banbury ICC, Merton Street, BANBURY, OX16 4RN
Tel: 08456 005 165
Fax: (01926) 729 914
Online: www.chilternrailways.co.uk/help

There's no published e-mail address for them.

 

[Starmill]

All this about announcing multiple trains at once? Last week at Manchester Pic, I noted 3 trains leaving Platform 1 in 3-minute succession. These were manually announced as "The front train on Platform 1 is... the middle train is... the rear train is..." The problem was: there were 5 units, none of them corridor linked (although obviously, some were coupled) in the platform! Oops!

 

[Eagle]

Whihch is why, again, the Edinburgh Waverley system of announcing the specific carriages should be employed.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Somebody with a twitter account should show this thread to Chiltern's twitter account. I would but I'm too lazy to make one.

 

[RPM]

Somebody with a twitter account should show this thread to Chiltern's twitter account. I would but I'm too lazy to make one.

Done it.

 

[Aictos]

Whihch is why, again, the Edinburgh Waverley system of announcing the specific carriages should be employed.

Which is?

 

[A-driver]

Whihch is why, again, the Edinburgh Waverley system of announcing the specific carriages should be employed.

It often is more hassle than its worth.

They tried it at kings cross for a while-platform 9a for the 2253 semi fast to Cambridge and platform 9b for the 2301 fast to peterbourgh. The amount of passengers getting the wrong train-trying to get to Stevenage on the 2253 and ending up on the 2301 first stop Biggleswade.

It was scrapped after so many passenger complaints.

 

[pjnathanail]

Done it.

Could we see a link?
Thanks

 

[jon0844]

It was scrapped after so many passenger complaints.

Sigh. Couldn't they have just scrapped the passengers?

When the 'new' station opened, the new screens for platform 9-11 were set up to show clearly two different trains, for platforms <n> a and <n> b.

Unfortunately, at the beginning, what actually happened was the same train showed twice. However, in theory they could show two services. Now they don't seem to do this anymore, with trains on the platform not being announced until the one in front has gone - and that, at times, does create the same problem with a service only having a few minutes on the screen.

I do think that it could have worked if there was even more clear signage on the platforms themselves, either markings on the platform, platform-based signs to show where the new train starts (as often used at Liverpool Street), but one big problem is the number of trains without CIS - or not having it working (especially late at night). It might be annoying, but having each train regularly showing and announcing the service (and stopping pattern) while waiting should make more of a difference and cut confusion than waiting until the driver boards and manually announces - perhaps just a minute or two before departure with the risk of people now not hearing it (either wearing headphones, talking to others or even being asleep if it's late once they've got comfortable!).

More modern rolling stock with screens on the side would likely help too, so perhaps one day this issue can be addressed - although by then, fewer FCC trains will be going out of KGX anyway and we'll have all the fun and games as people board the wrong trains from St Pancras!!!

 

[RPM]

Could we see a link?
Thanks

I set it as a Direct Message so it isn't publically visible. I don't think it is something that particularly needs open discussion on Twitter. I was just thinking it may fast-track the passing on of the issue to the relevant managers.

 

[pjnathanail]

I set it as a Direct Message so it isn't publically visible. I don't think it is something that particularly needs open discussion on Twitter. I was just thinking it may fast-track the passing on of the issue to the relevant managers.

Fair enough, no problem
Interesting to see what they say!

 

[TDK]

And this is different to arriving at somewhere like Birmingham New Street, with a pre-packed platform, errrr how exactly?

It seems to me that you do not understand how the railway actually works in the real World, the one that spins Goatboy. Through platforms are different as the trains come and go in a matter of 1 minute or so. Where practicable for example at termini and this is what the disscussion is about the anouncement of a train should be avoided until the train has arrived. On some occasions for example late running where there is only a 2 minute turnround this will obviously be different. I do take offence to you trying to undermine my comments on passenger safety to be fair as passenger safety is paramount on the railway and will always be a priority not passenger comforts and convenience.

 

[michael769]

Edinburgh Waverley routinely announces the bay platforms before the trains arrive. Indeed the train I get every night arrives onto the platform whilst passengers are already waiting.

 

[edwin_m]

The course of action surely needs to be determined case by case, depending on factors such as the train type, likely numbers of alighting and boarding passengers, turnaround time, and amount of space available both on the platforms and on the concourse.

 

[Goatboy]

It seems to me that you do not understand how the railway actually works in the real World, the one that spins Goatboy. Through platforms are different as the trains come and go in a matter of 1 minute or so.

My example given was Birmingham New Street. Trains frequently stand for durations of more than 1 minute.

I ask again - as you've not answered - what is different about the situation at New Street and that at a Terminus?

I do take offence to you trying to undermine my comments on passenger safety to be fair as passenger safety is paramount on the railway and will always be a priority not passenger comforts and convenience.

If you take offence to people disagreeing with you then internet forums are probably not the best place to air your views.

 

[A-driver]

My example given was Birmingham New Street. Trains frequently stand for durations of more than 1 minute.

I ask again - as you've not answered - what is different about the situation at New Street and that at a Terminus?



If you take offence to people disagreeing with you then internet forums are probably not the best place to air your views.

Are you deliberately trying to not understand?

WHERE POSSIBLE platforms shouldn't be announced until the train has arrived. On through platforms like Birmingham this isn't the case.

At Edinburgh there may not be enough turn around time, and so again its not practical to announce it later.

But if possible (like at many terminals including marylebone) they won't announce a platform until the train is in.

And its not purely a safety thing, also just easier all round as it prevents overcrowding, people forcing themselves on to the train whilst others are still getting off etc.

 

[sheff1]

It seems to me that you do not understand how the railway actually works in the real World, the one that spins .....

Where practicable for example at termini and this is what the disscussion is about the anouncement of a train should be avoided until the train has arrived.

Well, last time I checked Liverpool was in the real world and at Lime St (high level) platform numbers are routinely displayed/announced before the train has arrived. This applies even when the turnround time is 15 mins plus.

On the issue of double banking - at Manchester Piccadilly often a train against the buffers will be announced and open for boarding before an Airport train arrives and reverses at the country end of the same platform.

 

[Bedpan]

And its not purely a safety thing, also just easier all round as it prevents overcrowding, people forcing themselves on to the train whilst others are still getting off etc.

Although I agree with the last part of your sentence, I would have thought a concourse would be less crowded if people were directed to platforms earlier rather than later. Also, there's something comforting (if that's the right word - I mean the stress of not being entirely sure that you nothing is going to go wrong and you are going to be able to catch your train has gone) about being on the platform whether the train has arrived or not - rather than being stuck in a large crowd looking at a departure board and wondering what on earth is going on as the departure time gets ever nearer, and wondering if you are going to be able to get to the platform in time with your heavy luggage. Also, it should be a case of whoever arrives first gets more opportunity of getting a seat, not whoever can run from the concourse to the platform (once it is announced) first.

(Apologies if I am repeating somebody else's post, I haven't read the thread all the way through).

 

[A-driver]

It does amaze me at the moment on these forums the number of threads where someone asks a question or makes a point and a member of staff 'in the know' gives a FACTUAL response based on experience and knowledge (not an enthusiast with access to google) and then gets shouted down for it by other people who decide they don't like the answer/response.

More and more threads are going this way it seems.

 

[AlexS]

It may be a factual response, but it is a web forum, and therefore you can expect people to debate/disagree whether the method of working in place is the correct one :P It doesn't change the fact that what the person in question has said is correct though!

If it's getting to the point where trains are dropping off the board before platforms come up, then it's getting a bit silly and the management rather than the operational staff need to put in some kind of safeguard to ensure it operates correctly, particularly given how busy London Terminals get of an evening, even Marylebone. Even if it means an extra member of staff or a manager is present, without knowing the circumstances it's hard to say.

Obviously on a different CIS system to ours as if you haven't populated the platform, the system does it automatically when the signaller updates their train describer (and can throw a wobbly if he leaves the old one in a berth so you have to ring him and politely ask him to change it ).

 

[IanD]

... this is what the disscussion is about the anouncement of a train should be avoided until the train has arrived.

WHERE POSSIBLE platforms shouldn't be announced until the train has arrived. On through platforms like Birmingham this isn't the case.
...
But if possible (like at many terminals including marylebone) they won't announce a platform until the train is in.

I thought this discussion was about a train sitting in the platform but the intending passengers not being advised until just a minute before departure.

 

[t0ffeeman]

It does amaze me at the moment on these forums the number of threads where someone asks a question or makes a point and a member of staff 'in the know' gives a FACTUAL response based on experience and knowledge (not an enthusiast with access to google) and then gets shouted down for it by other people who decide they don't like the answer/response.

More and more threads are going this way it seems.

That all sounds very familiar!

 

[TDK]

My example given was Birmingham New Street. Trains frequently stand for durations of more than 1 minute.

I ask again - as you've not answered - what is different about the situation at New Street and that at a Terminus?



If you take offence to people disagreeing with you then internet forums are probably not the best place to air your views.

If you do not know the difference between the workings of a terminus station and a through station I rest my case. It is a risk announcing a train at a Terminus station before it arrives and it is practicable to carry this out, it is not practical in most cases to do this with through stations. If there is a risk to public safety it needs to be addressed and there is a risk at any station however there is always the term "most practicable" and this is the difference between through platforms and termini.

The difference between New Street and Marylebone is quite obvious, New Street has I believe 14 platforms and Marylebone has 6. The line speed into New Street is 10mph and the line speed into Marylebone is technically 25mph although trains will be doing 15mph into the platform.

I don't take offence of people dissagreeing with me, I do take offence when someone tries to quote againt safety and to be fair Goatboy if you think that it is safer announcing a train at a busy terminus before it arrives what is your reasoning on this?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well, last time I checked Liverpool was in the real world and at Lime St (high level) platform numbers are routinely displayed/announced before the train has arrived. This applies even when the turnround time is 15 mins plus.

On the issue of double banking - at Manchester Piccadilly often a train against the buffers will be announced and open for boarding before an Airport train arrives and reverses at the country end of the same platform.

That is against the suggested working agreement

 

[Goatboy]

If you do not know the difference between the workings of a terminus station and a through station I rest my case.

Why rest your case? Why not educate me if it's so much more dangerous?

In both cases I see two packed platforms full of people trying to get on a train whilst at the same time a train is arriving and unloading. I don't see why people might die if the station is Marylebone yet it can safely happen day in day out at somewhere like New Street.

I don't take offence of people dissagreeing with me, I do take offence when someone tries to quote againt safety and to be fair Goatboy if you think that it is safer announcing a train at a busy terminus before it arrives what is your reasoning on this?

I don't think its 'safer' I just think that claiming people could die if you don't wait until the last possible moment to announce a platform is slightly ridiculous.