Chiltern Evergreen 3 Detailed Proposals

[Chafford1]

The Evergreen 3 proposals and draft timetables have been published in detail on the Network Rail website:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browseDirectory.aspx?dir=\Track%20Access\1%20Current%20Consultations\2009.10.27%20Chiltern%20Railways%2073rd%20Supplemental%20Agreement%20-%20closing%20date%20for%20responses%2023%20November%202009&pageid=4591&root=

 

[The Planner]

Now they are up (and bear in mind the word draft in the title), you will probably understand the backlash against ATW. If ATW get the go ahead for their services, they can start in May 10 and are likely to plough straight through Chilterns aspirations....

 

[Chafford1]

Now they are up (and bear in mind the word draft in the title), you will probably understand the backlash against ATW. If ATW get the go ahead for their services, they can start in May 10 and are likely to plough straight through Chilterns aspirations....

Chiltern do say however:

'Chiltern are not seeking exclusive use of the Evergreen 3 infrastructure. Network Rail are free to sell in the normal manner any capacity which Chiltern does not have firm rights to use, subject to the application criteria of the proposed rebate mechanism, should this apply.'


The fastest London - Birmingham timing is 99 minutes with 5 stops which suggests to me that Virgin's WCML timings to New St have far too much slack in them!

 

[tbtc]

A half hourly Oxford - London service taking around an hour looks very competative; I hadn't realised the Chiltern service would be such a good alternative.

However, I don't understand why the two proposed ATW trains a day pose such a threat on the Chiltern side of things

 

[The Planner]

Read that as "Chiltern dont expect exclusivity except as long as it doesnt clash with what we want to run"

There is no slack at all in the WCML trains, which is why it all goes wrong when something happens as it is hard to recover.

You are still talking about 100mph trains on the Chilterns Vs 125mph on the WCML. People treat 125 as some mythical speed to be attained, the difference between the two isnt that great. 1 mile at 100 is 36 seconds, 1 mile at 125 is 28 seconds. So to gain a minute at 125mph you need 7½ miles of constant running.

 

[350232]

Where does this fit in with their proposed services in line with the East West Rail Link Western section, ie between Oxford - Milton Keynes/ Aylesbury - Milton Keynes?

 

[Chafford1]

A half hourly Oxford - London service taking around an hour looks very competative; I hadn't realised the Chiltern service would be such a good alternative.

However, I don't understand why the two proposed ATW trains a day pose such a threat on the Chiltern side of things

Chiltern are looking for an extension in their franchise to 2021 and state they will only make money in the last 2 years of the franchise if Evergreen 3 is implemented.

This suggests very tight margins and an underlying anxiety that they've got their sums wrong in the current economic climate - hence the fuss about ATW.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Read that as "Chiltern dont expect exclusivity except as long as it doesnt clash with what we want to run"

There is no slack at all in the WCML trains, which is why it all goes wrong when something happens as it is hard to recover.

You are still talking about 100mph trains on the Chilterns Vs 125mph on the WCML. People treat 125 as some mythical speed to be attained, the difference between the two isnt that great. 1 mile at 100 is 36 seconds, 1 mile at 125 is 28 seconds. So to gain a minute at 125mph you need 7½ miles of constant running.

Yes but not all of the Chiltern upgrade will be for 100mph running. Virgin's average timings from Euston to New Street 125mph, tilt and all, are hardly any faster than a Class 86 and Mk1s in 1968. Virgin should be offering a few more 1h 10min timings.

 

[The Planner]

Its 100mph for long enough for them to take advantage of it though, the quick services are non stop to Banbury then the rest of the stops are quick succesive ones in Leamington, Warwick, Warwick Parkway and Solihull where they are not braking from full speed.

Chilterns are going to have to spend some real advertising money on trying to prise people off the WCML I think. As for Virgin offering quicker journeys, their contract wont allow them to, they have to have certain amounts of stops in their trains, as Chiltern will.

 

[Waddon]

Islip station will only be getting about one train every two hours according to the timetable, which, although I'm sure is based on demand, seems a bit odd with all the money they're planning to spend on the station - a total rebuild with two new long platforms replacing the existing one, new footbridge, ticket machines etc. It must be costing millions...

 

[The Planner]

That's all changed, nothing happens to Islip, it stays as a single platform. There isnt a huge amount of double tracking now.

 

[smitha1]

it seems almost 1/2 of the London Marylebone - Birmingham trains will only run as far as Moor Street rather than Snow Hill, does anybody know any reasons for this?

 

[Failed Unit]

it seems almost 1/2 of the London Marylebone - Birmingham trains will only run as far as Moor Street rather than Snow Hill, does anybody know any reasons for this?

To use the nice new platforms that have been doing nothing useful for the past x years.

 

[DjU]

it seems almost 1/2 of the London Marylebone - Birmingham trains will only run as far as Moor Street rather than Snow Hill, does anybody know any reasons for this?

To ease capacity through the tunnel between Moor Street and Snow Hill

 

[route:oxford]

36 Minutes from Haddenham & Thame Parkway to Marylebone...

Fantastic!

Won't this decimate the passenger numbers from Aylesbury though? I mean, it's a 10ish minute drive from Aylesbury to Thame. Who's going to want to spend an extra 15 minutes commuting if they don't have to...

 

[gingerheid]

36 Minutes from Haddenham & Thame Parkway to Marylebone...

Fantastic!

Won't this decimate the passenger numbers from Aylesbury though? I mean, it's a 10ish minute drive from Aylesbury to Thame. Who's going to want to spend an extra 15 minutes commuting if they don't have to...

People who don't have a car, can't be bothered driving to Haddenham and parking car, don't know that this option is available, ...

 

[thefab444]

Could be about getting a seat? Most trains from Aylesbury will either start there or at Aylesbury Vale Parkway, whereas trains from Haddenham & Thames will have originated at Bicester or Banbury (those fast ones from Birmingham I should've thought).

 

[Waddon]

That's all changed, nothing happens to Islip, it stays as a single platform. There isnt a huge amount of double tracking now.

Is there a formal statement on this change anywhere? Chultern's own site still lists the full proposal. If not, what other changes are being implemented?

 

[Chafford1]

Is there a formal statement on this change anywhere? Chultern's own site still lists the full proposal. If not, what other changes are being implemented?

Not yet. But the application to Network Rail /ORR has a detailed rundown of the changes for Bicester - Oxford and the London - Birmingham linespeed improvements:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/track%20access/1%20current%20consultations/2009.10.27%20chiltern%20railways%2073rd%20supplemental%20agreement%20-%20closing%20date%20for%20responses%2023%20november%202009/form%2022%2073rd%20for%20eg3.pdf

 

[gwr2006]

Not yet. But the application to Network Rail /ORR has a detailed rundown of the changes for Bicester - Oxford and the London - Birmingham linespeed improvements:

Bicester Town - Islip includes a 50 mph double-to-single turnout just west of Bicester Town Station; Upgrade current single line track in good condition to 100 mph running to Islip station inclusive, utilising existing track components where appropriate; Works to be done such that installing double track at later date is not compromised. And at Islip, Extend platform to 6-car capacity; Install 90 mph double-to-single turnout.

 

[Waddon]

One thing thats interesting in that document is that it states that the long blockades on the Oxford - Bicester route caused by the major engineering works will be run so as not to interrupt the freight services to the MOD depot. How is this possible? Will they be running the MOD trains from Bletchley? Is that route in a good enough condition for that to be even possible? Or will they build the chord line off the Marylebone-Bicester North line first and then divert them that way?

 

[route:oxford]

One thing thats interesting in that document is that it states that the long blockades on the Oxford - Bicester route caused by the major engineering works will be run so as not to interrupt the freight services to the MOD depot. How is this possible? Will they be running the MOD trains from Bletchley? Is that route in a good enough condition for that to be even possible? Or will they build the chord line off the Marylebone-Bicester North line first and then divert them that way?

There are likely to be a number of options. Although I'm not sure where or from which direction the MOD trains come from.

The route between Bletchley and Calvert is mostly laid with track, although there are missing sections. I'm not sure if it is officially closed - potentially the missing sections could be re-laid for low speed running.

The alternative route would be from Oxford, reversal at Kings Sutton, reversal at Princes Risborough - Aylesbury reversal at Calvert then along to Bicester.

There is another alternative.

Google map OX25 1QD and you'll notice that one of the sidings (and there are miles and miles of them) at Bicester MOD comes within 200 metres of the chiltern mainline. I don't claim to be an expert, but it doesn't look like the worst location in the world to try and lay a temporary spur on. Could be good training for the military engineers too.

 

[The Planner]

The big blocks are mainly 56 hour weekend jobs, though there are some all week affairs.

Nothing could run Bletchley Claydon as there is no signalling or track in any sort of state to run a train on. I take it Routexford meant Kings Sutton seeing as Kings Langley is on the WCML !! you would never reverse there anyway, it would all be done at Banbury.

The chances of a temporary spur is a non starter too, too much cost for something that is only going to be ripped up.

 

[paul1609]

One thing thats interesting in that document is that it states that the long blockades on the Oxford - Bicester route caused by the major engineering works will be run so as not to interrupt the freight services to the MOD depot. How is this possible? Will they be running the MOD trains from Bletchley? Is that route in a good enough condition for that to be even possible? Or will they build the chord line off the Marylebone-Bicester North line first and then divert them that way?

This fotopic site gives a good idea of the state of the Calvert to Bletchley line http://disused-rlys.fotopic.net/p27098020.html realistically its not going to re-open without a rebuild that would cost millions.

 

[gwr2006]

There are likely to be a number of options. Although I'm not sure where or from which direction the MOD trains come from.

The daily MOD train originates at Didcot Yard and runs to Bicester just before lunchtime, and returns about two hours later. The wagons/vehicle flats are then marshalled to form onward trains leaving the following morning to MOD Ashchurch, Ludgershall etc.

The most likely alternative route would be for the chord at Bicester to be built first, then to top'n'tail the MOD train which could go via Kings Sutton and Haddenham & Thame to gain access to the BIOX line.