Chiltern class 168 diesel/battery hybrid

[43102EMR]

Anyone know when it’s back from Wolverton?

 

[dmncf]

But in this case the combined alternator/traction motor is on the engine side of the transmission... (not so clever)

Interesting. When the train is running in zero emission mode powered by the electric motor, how is the diesel engine able to turn off, rev down, turn on, rev back up? Is there a clutch between the diesel engine and the electric motor?

 

[Llama]

It would certainly appear to deal with the issue of 170s being used on stopping services but using a lot of energy heating transmission oil*, so it would seem likely given that these units now mostly are doing local stopping services, Chiltern being the only real exception to that.

* Because they don't go fast enough on those services to get into direct drive.

Pretty sure there is no 'direct drive' on the Voith transmission used on 170s, it'll be a fluid coupling which operates at higher speeds than the torque converter operates, like on the rest of the Voith-fitted DMUs.

 

[CR165022]

Saw it on test today, it was departing Princes Risborough and blimey its quiet!! Its practically silent! (It was on the battery mode at the time)

 

[warwickshire]

Good afternoon today Monday 17th January 2022 the following move 551V 1005 Aylesbury Depot to Wolverton centre sidings occurred with 168321 on the move as the next 168 for hybrid conversion. The second unit to go. After 168329.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Good afternoon today Monday 17th January 2022 the following move 551V 1005 Aylesbury Depot to Wolverton centre sidings occurred with 168321 on the move as the next 168 for hybrid conversion. The second unit to go. After 168329.

How many are being converted?

 

[warwickshire]

How many are being converted?

This next one most certainly. Then two to start with, then proves successful.
Then the others in the fleet 168 wise will most likely follow.

 

[Pigeon]

Pretty sure there is no 'direct drive' on the Voith transmission used on 170s, it'll be a fluid coupling which operates at higher speeds than the torque converter operates, like on the rest of the Voith-fitted DMUs.

That's what you get for "direct drive" on that transmission setup. A torque converter is a continuously automatically variable ratio transmission element; a fluid coupling is an element which operates at a single fixed ratio of 1:1, so it's a direct drive in the world of hydrodynamic transmissions.

True, it isn't a "proper" direct drive in the sense of a rigid connection like the torque converter lockup you get on cars, and it does have a degree of slip; but the slip is probably useful in the railway environment to help limit the torque spikes the driveline sees and improve reliability.

 

[Suraggu]

This next one most certainly. Then two to start with, then proves successful.
Then the others in the fleet 168 wise will most likely follow.

Current NRC with Chiltern states for an additional hybrid 168. No more will be hybridised under that current contract.

 

[43102EMR]

The first one entered service today: https://twitter.com/davidburroughs_/status/1491717406611410945?s=21

 

[Chris125]

Can it work in multiple with standard 168s?

 

[class387]

Does anyone know which (if any) passenger services 168329 is working right now? All I've seen is that it's running to Aylesbury.

 

[sonic2009]

Does anyone know which (if any) passenger services 168329 is working right now? All I've seen is that it's running to Aylesbury.

I think it was going to put onto Oxford services.

 

[LA50041]

Does anyone know which (if any) passenger services 168329 is working right now? All I've seen is that it's running to Aylesbury.

it arrived AYS at 0933 but there appears no further allocations

 

[43102EMR]

Does anyone know which (if any) passenger services 168329 is working right now? All I've seen is that it's running to Aylesbury.

According to Chiltern, for now it will just be doing Aylesbury runs.

 

[class387]

it arrived AYS at 0933 but there appears no further allocations

Thanks - from Princes Risborough I assume. Does make sense to keep it off the main line for now while it settles into service.

 

[RPM]

Can it work in multiple with standard 168s?

Yes it can.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Feb 2022 ==

Does anyone know which (if any) passenger services 168329 is working right now? All I've seen is that it's running to Aylesbury.

It will initially cover the former bubble car diagram on weekday mornings, so basically Aylesbury-Risborough shuttles. Later in the year it will also do an afternoon run over the Met, then Marylebone to Oxford & return, then back over the Met to Aylesbury, all in multiple with an ordinary 168. I believe there are some acceptance issues regarding its use on LUL infrastructure which have to be ironed out before these afternoon runs commence.

 

[warwickshire]

Yes it can.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Feb 2022 ==


It will initially cover the former bubble car diagram on weekday mornings, so basically Aylesbury-Risborough shuttles. Later in the year it will also do an afternoon run over the Met, then Marylebone to Oxford & return, then back over the Met to Aylesbury, all in multiple with an ordinary 168. I believe there are some acceptance issues regarding its use on LUL infrastructure which have to be ironed out before these afternoon runs commence.

Also in addition to the above its only the aylesbury drivers that sign them so are hence limited to which services can operate has to be crewed by a aylesbury driver.
Until the drivers from the other Depots in time get trained and duly sign them.

 

[Suraggu]

The next hybridflex project has been cancelled and 168329 will be the only unit hybridised at present.

 

[CR165022]

if its been cancelled, then why is 168321 already in the works?

 

[43102EMR]

The next hybridflex project has been cancelled and 168329 will be the only unit hybridised at present.

Source?

 

[Suraggu]

Source?

Chiltern Railways and the leasing company. 168321 returning to Aylesbury next week and returns to service.

They will use data from 168329 to assess whether its worth financially hybridising the entire 168.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Feb 2022 ==

if its been cancelled, then why is 168321 already in the works?

Returning next week to Aylesbury.

 

[QSK19]

Hopefully we see it introduced at Northern and EMR then, particularly the latter.

Yes, I can see that being the solution for EMR’s 170s*. There’s no way that EMR will be granted any sort of bi-mode stock any time soon (more chance of pigs flying than EMR getting new or nearly-new regional stock!); so, balancing the DMU situation at EMR versus the government’s wish to decarbonise transportation, this might be the only solution (or should the word be compromise?).

* I deliberately leave out the 158s (which are all but staying with EMR) since it’s probably not viable to invest in equipment such as this for stock that’s already 30+ years old.

 

[diligentdave]

Chiltern Railways and the leasing company. 168321 returning to Aylesbury next week and returns to service.

They will use data from 168329 to assess whether its worth financially hybridising the entire 168.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Feb 2022 ==


Returning next week to Aylesbury.

Yup. I was down at Wolverton couple of weeks ago and was talking to the people carrying out the overhaul and they said to me that the company for the engines had been bought by Rolls Royce and since then the costs have trebled which has led to the whole thing being pulled.

 

[Suraggu]

Yup. I was down at Wolverton couple of weeks ago and was talking to the people carrying out the overhaul and they said to me that the company for the engines had been bought by Rolls Royce and since then the costs have trebled which has led to the whole thing being pulled.

And with other sources of decarbonisation coming in thick and fast, the cost of hybridising older units rather than purchasing brand new is not as cost effective as it was when the deal for 8329 was signed.

 

[Domh245]

Yup. I was down at Wolverton couple of weeks ago and was talking to the people carrying out the overhaul and they said to me that the company for the engines had been bought by Rolls Royce and since then the costs have trebled which has led to the whole thing being pulled.

MTU have been wholly owned by Rolls Royce for around 8 years now, and partially owned by them for longer. I think the last part about costs skyrocketing is certainly believable however, and particularly if cost of the conversion has gone up but fuel price not *as* much then it could torpedo the (pure cash) business case for it

 

[Mikey C]

MTU have been wholly owned by Rolls Royce for around 8 years now, and partially owned by them for longer. I think the last part about costs skyrocketing is certainly believable however, and particularly if cost of the conversion has gone up but fuel price not *as* much then it could torpedo the (pure cash) business case for it

The reason for this project isn't just about fuel consumption though, as I doubt the fuel savings would cover the cost of the work, even with the sky high costs at the moment

It's as much about urban air quality, and if local authorities start kicking up a fuss about diesel particulate pollution, the railway will have to do something

 

[hwl]

The reason for this project isn't just about fuel consumption though, as I doubt the fuel savings would cover the cost of the work, even with the sky high costs at the moment

It's as much about urban air quality, and if local authorities start kicking up a fuss about diesel particulate pollution, the railway will have to do something

NOx as well as PM.
One of the issues is that the former use of long leases for the first 20 years post privatisation allowed upgrade costs to be spread over long periods but the CMA reports and eventual DfT reduced the lease periso are now much shorter than the fuel savings break even period (which is very long).

Meanwhile in Ireland Iarnród Éireann, is fitting almost identical MTU hybrid rafts (different battery size and software) to all their existing Class 22000 DMUs (and getting some extra new non driving vehicles with the rafts fitted as well). (Which currently have MTU183 engines (as Class168-171) and Voith T312 transmissions (as Class 180 & 185) fitted). Which is potentially a much larger "trial".

 

[Greybeard33]

Meanwhile in Ireland Iarnród Éireann, is fitting almost identical MTU hybrid rafts (different battery size and software) to all their existing Class 22000 DMUs (and getting some extra new non driving vehicles with the rafts fitted as well). (Which currently have MTU183 engines (as Class168-171) and Voith T312 transmissions (as Class 180 & 185) fitted). Which is potentially a much larger "trial".

The Class 22000s are newer than the 168s, which presumably improves the business case for the retrofit (longer prospective service life).

 

[RPM]

Also in addition to the above its only the aylesbury drivers that sign them so are hence limited to which services can operate has to be crewed by a aylesbury driver.
Until the drivers from the other Depots in time get trained and duly sign them.

Only Aylesbury Link 2 drivers in fact, so less than half the depot.