Chiltern Carnet - Route Validity

[Tugboatden]

My Chiltern Carnet tickets state 'London Terminals' and route 'Any Permitted'. Generally I whizz straight into Marylebone, which I guess is the assumed destination on the ticket. However, next time I don't want to. I want to pretty much meander around the London Overground and end up the Liverpool Street side of town.
Accepting that a direct journey is in the spirit of the ticket, does the 'London Terminals' and 'Any Permitted' give any flexibility?
I could always hop off at Wembley and walk up to Wembley Central and use the Oyster from there I presume?

 

[Lad Brookes]

Where is your Carnet from?

 

[Tugboatden]

Where is your Carnet from?

Haddenham & Thame Parkway

 

[Lad Brookes]

HDM's routing points are Banbury Group, Oxford, Greenford Und and London Group.

Banbury Group and Oxford are inappropriate for this as they have higher fares to London that HDM.

Using London Group means the Origin and Destination have the same Routing Point, so you have to go by the shortest route over which a regular scheduled passenger train service operates. This is clearly on the direct route from Haddenham to Marylebone.

Using Greenford Und to London Group means maps WR or GC. This gives you the direct route from Haddenham to Marylebone, or using the Chiltern services that go into/come from Paddington- but at the moment this is only the 11:36 on weekdays Paddington-Wycombe.

In short, no- you cannot use it on Overground services round to Liverpool Street- but you can break your journey at Wembley Stadium and use Oyster from thereon.

 

[Tugboatden]

Thanks for that clarification, much appreciated! Wembley change-point it is then.

 

[island]

London Group is a routeing point for Haddenham & T Py so only a through train or the shortest route can be used.

Edit: I have come to the same conclusion as Lad Brookes but with slightly different logic and eight minutes slower. You may not use Greenford Und as a routeing point for this journey:

STEP 3
Common Routeing Points
If the origin and destination have a common routeing point, the permitted
route is direct via the shortest distance from the origin to the destination
over which a regular scheduled passenger train service operates.

It does not change the answer — you may always use a through train even if it's not the shortest distance (so you can go from Charlton to Lewisham via Slade Green, Crayford, and Hither Green if you are on one of the circular trains!)

 

[MikeWh]

(so you can go from Charlton to Lewisham via Slade Green, Crayford, and Hither Green if you are on one of the circular trains!)

You can locally, but not from London as there is a negative easement (44) in place. Meaning you can't buy a London to Lewisham ticket and use it to alight at Bexley having gone round via Woolwich. The other issue if you did the roundabout route using Oyster is that you might fall foul of maximum journey times.

 

[Lad Brookes]

Edit: I have come to the same conclusion as Lad Brookes but with slightly different logic and eight minutes slower. You may not use Greenford Und as a routeing point for this journey

Ah, I suspected that was the case- but I wasn't 100% sure, so checked the routing using Greenford Und as the routing point, and it was basically the same. Had it been different, I would've investigated further- but I couldn't be arsed as the answer was the same one way or another.

 

[tony_mac]

just so you know; if any of the routeing points are shared then the 'common routeing point' rules apply to that journey - so there is no point checking fares or routes for any other routeing point.

 

[island]

You can locally, but not from London as there is a negative easement (44) in place. Meaning you can't buy a London to Lewisham ticket and use it to alight at Bexley having gone round via Woolwich.

Hence why I didn't suggest from London Bridge

The other issue if you did the roundabout route using Oyster is that you might fall foul of maximum journey times.

I think the only point of doing the roundabout route is to (ab)use break of journey rules by getting a paper ticket from (say) Lewisham to Charlton and using it to Crayford before stopping short. As long as the train was going to call at Charlton, they can't stop you, although they mightn't like it

 

[MichaelAMW]

Back to the original question... Once upon a time there was availability from the Wycombe line to Paddington via West Ruislip, the Central Line, Greenford and Ealing Broadway. I believe that locally this validity is still assumed to be true, but this is just the view of a chum still living back in High Wycombe rather than something official - I agree with the RG interpretation, on the face of it.

It is, however, interesting to wonder about the use of map GC as Greenford is not really on the West Ruislip - Paddington route: it's only accessible from the north by the Central Line. It all depends on how literal the maps are - perhaps it's enough that the 'main line' passes close by.

 

[island]

You can't use the maps for this journey. Since the origin and destination share a common routeing point, you may only use the shortest route or a through train.

 

[MichaelAMW]

You can't use the maps for this journey. Since the origin and destination share a common routeing point, you may only use the shortest route or a through train.

Agreed, as I more or less said in my post. I was just wondering what happens to these well established arrangements - unusual, in this case, given that LUL is involved with no parallel NR service - when the RG becomes involved. Perhaps the answer is simply that via Ealing Broadway is the shortest route to Paddington with a regular service, so it's a permitted route regardless.