Child Fare Prosecution

[raybanz]

Hello, New to this forum.

A couple weeks ago, I was caught travelling on child ticket to Uni. Ive been doing this a couple of months, but it caught up to me last week. The inspector took a statement and said i would recieve a letter through the post from Southeastern railway. I got it today asking for some details.

I was just wondering would they consider a settlement even though I had done a repeated offense. This was the first time getting caught and I had no idea what the consequences were. Genuinely, giving me so much anxiety as im only 19, Ive got my whole future ahead of me, was a stupid risk and I should't have made that choice.

I've started drafting a letter expressing my shame and have told them I will pay any unpaid fare and any administrative costs, as Ive seen a couple others in the situation im in, the other threads. Any advice, or things I should include? Has anyone had any response from a similar situation? How likely will they be to take this to court and decide not to settle?? Sorry if this is all over the place, my first forum ever and my minds a mess.

 

[island]

Welcome to the forum.

In your discussions with the inspector, did it arise that you had done this multiple times?

Do you buy your tickets via an app or website, or ticket machine?

 

[raybanz]

Welcome to the forum.

In your discussions with the inspector, did it arise that you had done this multiple times?

Do you buy your tickets via an app or website, or ticket machine?

With the discussion with the inspector it hadnt come up that I have done this multiple time, He took my name, my address and a reason for why I was travelling on child fare.

I bought my tickets from the ticket machine. I always buy it from the machine and pay by card.

Thank you for your reply, reading these threads really help ease my nerves a little.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Speak to your student union

 

[raybanz]

Speak to your student union

What dyou think they could do? Would they battle on my behalf?

 

[Bungle158]

It all depends on the policy of the train operator in question. It is possible that a single offence may be considered for a settlement. Your student union may be able to help with suggestions on mitigation, but "battling on your behalf" is a bigger ask. Some unis have a Free Representation Unit, staffed by senior law students, but they tend to confine their activities to employment and benefit matters.

You obviously realise that your actions could potentially land you with a criminal record. As such, confine your reply to the matter in hand and do not even go near other instances of ticket misuse if they are not raised. Wait to see what is in the letter which will inevitably land on your doormat before contacting the train operator.

 

[furlong]

So if you pay on multiple occasions using the same card, they'll be able to link together all the transactions pretty easily if they take the trouble to look. We often see on here that Southeastern offers settlements, so you might stick to the standard formula of a short and simple response that you've already found on here. You might expect that their criteria for offering a settlement would include conditions such as being reasonably sure that you've learned your lesson and won't cheat again, and that they've been compensated for the full extent of the money they believe they have lost.

 

[island]

So if you pay on multiple occasions using the same card, they'll be able to link together all the transactions pretty easily if they take the trouble to look.

I’m not sure about that. Card details are not necessarily retained for this purpose. It’s different to the cases we’ve seen where people buy tickets online, as these are linked to an account/email address.

 

[WesternLancer]

What dyou think they could do? Would they battle on my behalf?

I'd hope not as student union 'battles' are very tedious to most non students.... BUT the Student Union advice centre would help you draft the reply you need to send or may be able to refer you to a solicitor who would help you at low / no or modest cost that they have an agreement with ref help for student union members.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Nov 2021 ==

Hello, New to this forum.

A couple weeks ago, I was caught travelling on child ticket to Uni. Ive been doing this a couple of months, but it caught up to me last week. The inspector took a statement and said i would recieve a letter through the post from Southeastern railway. I got it today asking for some details.

I was just wondering would they consider a settlement even though I had done a repeated offense. This was the first time getting caught and I had no idea what the consequences were. Genuinely, giving me so much anxiety as im only 19, Ive got my whole future ahead of me, was a stupid risk and I should't have made that choice.

I've started drafting a letter expressing my shame and have told them I will pay any unpaid fare and any administrative costs, as Ive seen a couple others in the situation im in, the other threads. Any advice, or things I should include? Has anyone had any response from a similar situation? How likely will they be to take this to court and decide not to settle?? Sorry if this is all over the place, my first forum ever and my minds a mess.

We did see about a year ago about someone (a nurse IIRC but that is not pertinent) who had been repeatedly fare evading (different method of evasion than yours) that IIRC SE Trains agreed to settle with. She was open and honest with them about the number of occasions and what she owed. So you have every chance.

Feel free to post your draft apology letter up as I am sure people will give you suggested amends/feedback on it if you think that would help.

ALSO - buy yourself a Railcard suitable for your age / student status if you are a mature student - it will show that you are serious about not fare dodging with child tickets again, and will save you money on at least some of your travel hopefully.

 

[raybanz]

It all depends on the policy of the train operator in question. It is possible that a single offence may be considered for a settlement. Your student union may be able to help with suggestions on mitigation, but "battling on your behalf" is a bigger ask. Some unis have a Free Representation Unit, staffed by senior law students, but they tend to confine their activities to employment and benefit matters.

You obviously realise that your actions could potentially land you with a criminal record. As such, confine your reply to the matter in hand and do not even go near other instances of ticket misuse if they are not raised. Wait to see what is in the letter which will inevitably land on your doormat before contacting the train operator.

What dyou mean by a single offence? as in this is my first time being caught? Im not too worried about paying the fine, its just the criminal record that is scaring me. Ive seen soem thread where letters have been rejected and still been taken to court. Im not too sure how much they know or if they know about the other instances of me doing this. I usually pay with the same card at the ticket machine at my local station. But I will wait for there respose from the inital letter before contacting my student union.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Nov 2021 ==

I'd hope not as student union 'battles' are very tedious to most non students.... BUT the Student Union advice centre would help you draft the reply you need to send or may be able to refer you to a solicitor who would help you at low / no or modest cost that they have an agreement with ref help for student union members.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Nov 2021 ==


We did see about a year ago about someone (a nurse IIRC but that is not pertinent) who had been repeatedly fare evading (different method of evasion than yours) that IIRC SE Trains agreed to settle with. She was open and honest with them about the number of occasions and what she owed. So you have every chance.

Feel free to post your draft apology letter up as I am sure people will give you suggested amends/feedback on it if you think that would help.

ALSO - buy yourself a Railcard suitable for your age / student status if you are a mature student - it will show that you are serious about not fare dodging with child tickets again, and will save you money on at least some of your travel hopefully.

I have since been using my railcard in efforts to ammend my doings. I am still drafting it up and will send on here.

 

[raybanz]

I’m not sure about that. Card details are not necessarily retained for this purpose. It’s different to the cases we’ve seen where people buy tickets online, as these are linked to an account/email address.

I pay at my station with the same card. Very rarely do online bookings. I have a feeling this will be found

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Nov 2021 ==

Hello, New to this forum.

A couple weeks ago, I was caught travelling on child ticket to Uni. Ive been doing this a couple of months, but it caught up to me last week. The inspector took a statement and said i would recieve a letter through the post from Southeastern railway. I got it today asking for some details.

I was just wondering would they consider a settlement even though I had done a repeated offense. This was the first time getting caught and I had no idea what the consequences were. Genuinely, giving me so much anxiety as im only 19, Ive got my whole future ahead of me, was a stupid risk and I should't have made that choice.

I've started drafting a letter expressing my shame and have told them I will pay any unpaid fare and any administrative costs, as Ive seen a couple others in the situation im in, the other threads. Any advice, or things I should include? Has anyone had any response from a similar situation? How likely will they be to take this to court and decide not to settle?? Sorry if this is all over the place, my first forum ever and my minds a mess.

Okay, so Ive drafted up my letter, please can someone let me know of any improvements.

Dear Southeastern Railway,



Reference: XXXXXXXXXXXX.

I am writing to you to apologise for the incident that occurred on November 16th, 2021, in which I travelled from XXX Station to XXX Station on a child ticket. I understand that I have failed to pay the appropriate fare for this journey and there is no excuse or defence for my action except poor and careless judgement from myself. I honestly feel at great shame for my actions. Prior to the incident I had not truly understood the seriousness and consequences of my behaviour and had made a severe lapse in judgement, leading to a breach of Railway Regulations and Byelaws.

I now understand that this is a criminal offense and that it is my responsibility as the traveller to pay the correct fare before boarding any train.

I am young student who had made a careless mistake. I understand my misdoings and it has truly opened my eyes to the severity of my actions and the situation at hand and wish not to have these proceedings follow me for the rest of my adult life with a criminal record.

I am gratuitously asking you to take into consideration that this is my first-time offense in my file and asking you to reconsider the punishment. After reflecting on my actions, I now understand my wrongdoings. I am kindly asking to settle the matter without the need of court action, and instead pay all outstanding fare, train administrative costs and any penalties dealing with the matter.

To ensure any incident like this does not occur in the future, I have now purchased a 16-25 railcard in hopes to start to rectify the situation. I would like to apologise once again for my careless and dishonest behaviour and any inconvenience I may have caused.



Yours Sincerely,

 

[AlterEgo]

Some corrections.

I am writing to you to apologise for the incident that occurred on November 16th, 2021, in which I travelled from XXX Station to XXX Station on a child ticket. I understand that I have failed to pay the appropriate fare for this journey and there is no excuse or defence for my action except poor and careless judgement from myself my own poor judgment. I honestly feel at great shame for my actions. Prior to the incident I had not truly understood the seriousness and consequences of my behaviour and had made a severe lapse in judgement, leading to a breach of Railway Regulations and Byelaws. (do not say you have broken both of these sets of laws!!)


I now understand that this is a criminal offence and that it is my responsibility as the traveller to pay the correct fare before boarding any train.

I am a young student who has made a careless mistake. I understand my misdoings and it has truly opened my eyes to the severity of my actions and the situation at hand and wish not to have these proceedings follow me for the rest of my adult life with a criminal record.

I am gratuitously (this means "without good reason!!") graciously asking you to take into consideration that this is my first-time offence in my file and asking you to reconsider the punishment consider settling the matter out of court. After reflecting on my actions, I now understand my wrongdoings. I am kindly asking to settle the matter without the need of court action, and instead I will be able to pay all any outstanding fare, train and your administrative costs and any penalties you have incurred while dealing with the matter.

To ensure any incident like this does not occur in the future, I have now purchased a 16-25 railcard in hopes to start to rectify the situation. I would like to apologise once again for my careless and dishonest behaviour and any inconvenience I may have caused.

Yours Sincerely Faithfully,

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Is it a good idea or indeed appropriate to specifically refer in the draft letter to a "first offence"?

Reason for questioning this is that the OP admits (in their opening post) to having avoided paying the correct fare on multiple occasions.

The TOC's investigation team may, or may not, already be aware of this, if, of course, they have been able to access / trawl through the OP's ticket purchasing history.

 

[js1000]

They'll generally always offer an out of court settlement if you apologise and write a contrite letter that you have learnt your lesson.

But is your draft letter is too heavy. Just apologise for the incident, you understand the severity of not paying the correct fare on the railway industry - in particular to staff and other passengers - and that you will always pay the full fare prior to travelling on the train.

Saying stuff like "first offence" and "breach of the railway regulations" is just doing their job for them and actually leads to someone to put the case to prosecution rather than offer an out of court settlement!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Nov 2021 ==

So if you pay on multiple occasions using the same card, they'll be able to link together all the transactions pretty easily if they take the trouble to look. We often see on here that Southeastern offers settlements, so you might stick to the standard formula of a short and simple response that you've already found on here. You might expect that their criteria for offering a settlement would include conditions such as being reasonably sure that you've learned your lesson and won't cheat again, and that they've been compensated for the full extent of the money they believe they have lost.

No, they cannot do that due to data protection laws. ID and card fraud would also be even more rife if it was that easy.

Even if they could do this, just because someone paid for a ticket with a credit/debit card with a paper ticket does not automatically mean they were the one who travelled as they may have been given permission to someone else to use it.

 

[WesternLancer]

Some corrections.

Very helpful amends for the OP to use I would say. If @raybanz is happy to use it and feels it is correct and accurate.

 

[AlterEgo]

Is it a good idea or indeed appropriate to specifically refer in the draft letter to a "first offence"?

Reason for questioning this is that the OP admits (in their opening post) to having avoided paying the correct fare on multiple occasions.

The TOC's investigation team may, or may not, already be aware of this, if, of course, they have been able to access / trawl through the OP's ticket purchasing history.

Yes, good point. Remove the reference to “first offence”.

 

[raybanz]

They'll generally always offer an out of court settlement if you apologise and write a contrite letter that you have learnt your lesson.

But is your draft letter is too heavy. Just apologise for the incident, you understand the severity of not paying the correct fare on the railway industry - in particular to staff and other passengers - and that you will always pay the full fare prior to travelling on the train.

Saying stuff like "first offence" and "breach of the railway regulations" is just doing their job for them and actually leads to someone to put the case to prosecution rather than offer an out of court settlement!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Nov 2021 ==


No, they cannot do that due to data protection laws. ID and card fraud would also be even more rife if it was that easy.

Even if they could do this, just because someone paid for a ticket with a credit/debit card with a paper ticket does not automatically mean they were the one who travelled as they may have been given permission to someone else to use it.

That’s what’s scaring me most, as sometimes my sister who is actually valid using a child ticket uses my card. Just don’t want it to seem like commit more offences i already have?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Dec 2021 ==

Some corrections.

@AlterEgo thank you so much! I want to send it out today but i wasn’t sure if anyone would actually take the time to read it. Everyone on this forum is so helpful and supportive, I wasn’t too sure about joining here as I thought it would be full of mockery and judgement but boy was I wrong. Thank you to all!

 

[WesternLancer]

That’s what’s scaring me most, as sometimes my sister who is actually valid using a child ticket uses my card. Just don’t want it to seem like commit more offences i already have?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Dec 2021 ==

Ref this - not 100% sure what you mean by your card (eg bank card / oyster card / railcard?) but if it is referring to what would be called a 'non transferable' type of rail ticket or card you should prevent her doing this. But my hunch is you mean bank payment card - in which case up to you (but probably worth bearing in mind if you ever were a victim of a bank / card scam or theft and the bank worked out you regularly let someone - even a relative - have access to your bank card I think there would be a risk that they might not pay out compensation for lost sums if theft or scam on basis you did not take adequate care of your card in line with their T&C - juts a thought, I'm no expert.)

Glad you have found the forum helpful. You may have your request rejected, in which case head back for further advice on next options. We have seen recent cases on here where people have had to write 2 or 3 times before getting to the point of being offered an out of court settlement but have ultimately been successful.

 

[malc-c]

Just want to make it clear that my following comments are not aimed at anyone on a personal level, just an observation and not judgemental in any way.

I find it quite amusing that there are so many people here trying to offer helpful advice on how the OP can reduce or possibly get out of paying a large fine or appearing in court, despite the fact that in this instance the OP has openly admitted regularly committing the offence, which they knew was wrong, and no doubt would have continued to do the same again and again if they had not been caught.

Not sure what the message that sends out with respect to the forum.. No doubt the mods will ensure that the support members give to those seeking advice on how best to resolve such cases could not be construed as such to bring the forum owners into disrepute. Anyway, as I said just an observation, and not intended to offend anyone.

 

[75A]

Just want to make it clear that my following comments are not aimed at anyone on a personal level, just an observation and not judgemental in any way.

I find it quite amusing that there are so many people here trying to offer helpful advice on how the OP can reduce or possibly get out of paying a large fine or appearing in court, despite the fact that in this instance the OP has openly admitted regularly committing the offence, which they knew was wrong, and no doubt would have continued to do the same again and again if they had not been caught.

Not sure what the message that sends out with respect to the forum.. No doubt the mods will ensure that the support members give to those seeking advice on how best to resolve such cases could not be construed as such to bring the forum owners into disrepute. Anyway, as I said just an observation, and not intended to offend anyone.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[AlterEgo]

Just want to make it clear that my following comments are not aimed at anyone on a personal level, just an observation and not judgemental in any way.

I find it quite amusing that there are so many people here trying to offer helpful advice on how the OP can reduce or possibly get out of paying a large fine or appearing in court, despite the fact that in this instance the OP has openly admitted regularly committing the offence, which they knew was wrong, and no doubt would have continued to do the same again and again if they had not been caught.

Not sure what the message that sends out with respect to the forum.. No doubt the mods will ensure that the support members give to those seeking advice on how best to resolve such cases could not be construed as such to bring the forum owners into disrepute. Anyway, as I said just an observation, and not intended to offend anyone.

Because people are entitled to a defence.

Nobody doubts that the OP did the wrong thing, least of all the OP themselves. But they are entitled to seek the opportunity to present mitigation. Failing to do so means the TOC has all the resources and will just steamroller the OP in court. A balance of power is quite desirable rather than one-sided legal expertise.

I am sure none of us would criticise the OP for, say, engaging a solicitor and paying a few hundred pounds. Nor would anyone have any right to criticise you if you did the same if accused of something - even if you did do it!

In another thread, a poster is being accused of an offence that, on examination, it seems they did not even commit. In this thread, the OP is being advised, by friendly lay people, to settle amicably with the train operating company. Bear in mind that the train company may turn out to be as motivated to settle as the OP is.

I do not agree that people accused of criminal offences - even ones they definitely committed - should forfeit the right to seek help in minimising the consequences, and I do not believe the forum's small pool of mixed expertise on this matter reflects in any way on the forum.

We only have about 10-20 regular contributors here and I do not think that the resolutions we see are somehow defeating justice. If people aren't actually guilty of anything, a small number of posters are able to examine the law to ensure the train company isn't abusing its position. If people admit - or are so obviously going to be found guilty - then more of us can move in and try to advise to settle (which, by the way, still costs the OP a fair sum). This is one of the few areas of the forum with a favourable signal to noise ratio and has provided important practical help to people who find themselves on the wrong side of the law. Which, to repeat, those people are entitled to seek.

 

[malc-c]

Because people are entitled to a defence.

<snip>

As I said I wasn't being judgmental...I wasn't suggesting that its wrong to offer advice and support, no more than suggesting in cases where the OP is knowingly committing an offence they be left to take whatever the courts throw at them, and I agree that everyone deserves some form of representation or advice, be that from forum members or qualified legal personnel. I'm also not suggesting that members have any hidden agenda or bias on who's side the sit with in relation to the advice they offer... To be blunt (and hopefully not get flamed) what I found amusing was that no one comes down on the "offender" for cases where they admit that they are knowingly, and thus guilty of committing regular fare evasion, the advice tends to be positive and helpful.

 

[30907]

To be blunt (and hopefully not get flamed) what I found amusing was that no one comes down on the "offender" for cases where they admit that they are knowingly, and thus guilty of committing regular fare evasion, the advice tends to be positive and helpful.

It does occasionally happen, if a poster doesn't seem to have realised they have done something wrong, but in general people who post here have learnt that (if only the hard way!) and don't need the book throwing at them.

I must admit, though, that I get annoyed when people claim to have made a "mistake" which in most cases was a deliberate choice (yes, maybe unwise, hasty, not thought-through - but not a mistake).

Anyway, the OP has a good-enough answer.

 

[Haywain]

Just want to make it clear that my following comments are not aimed at anyone on a personal level, just an observation and not judgemental in any way.

I find it quite amusing that there are so many people here trying to offer helpful advice on how the OP can reduce or possibly get out of paying a large fine or appearing in court, despite the fact that in this instance the OP has openly admitted regularly committing the offence, which they knew was wrong, and no doubt would have continued to do the same again and again if they had not been caught.

Not sure what the message that sends out with respect to the forum.. No doubt the mods will ensure that the support members give to those seeking advice on how best to resolve such cases could not be construed as such to bring the forum owners into disrepute. Anyway, as I said just an observation, and not intended to offend anyone.

Further to what @AlterEgo has already said, this is an advice forum and advice is exactly what posters are entitled to ask for and others are entitled provide. I don't know about you, but if I found myself in trouble I would like to be able to get good quality free advice - indeed, there have been occasions in pre-internet days where it may have been extremely beneficial to be able to ask a bunch of random but knowledgeable strangers for non-judgemental advice.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Doubt very much whether the OP will end up not having to pay, at the very least, an "out of court settlement" of at least three figures. And maybe quite a lot more if the investigations team ascertains that other occasions of having avoided paying the correct fare have taken place.

 

[raybanz]

Ref this - not 100% sure what you mean by your card (eg bank card / oyster card / railcard?) but if it is referring to what would be called a 'non transferable' type of rail ticket or card you should prevent her doing this. But my hunch is you mean bank payment card - in which case up to you (but probably worth bearing in mind if you ever were a victim of a bank / card scam or theft and the bank worked out you regularly let someone - even a relative - have access to your bank card I think there would be a risk that they might not pay out compensation for lost sums if theft or scam on basis you did not take adequate care of your card in line with their T&C - juts a thought, I'm no expert.)

Glad you have found the forum helpful. You may have your request rejected, in which case head back for further advice on next options. We have seen recent cases on here where people have had to write 2 or 3 times before getting to the point of being offered an out of court settlement but have ultimately been successful.

Yes I pay with my bank card/Apple Pay

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Dec 2021 ==

Just want to make it clear that my following comments are not aimed at anyone on a personal level, just an observation and not judgemental in any way.

I find it quite amusing that there are so many people here trying to offer helpful advice on how the OP can reduce or possibly get out of paying a large fine or appearing in court, despite the fact that in this instance the OP has openly admitted regularly committing the offence, which they knew was wrong, and no doubt would have continued to do the same again and again if they had not been caught.

Not sure what the message that sends out with respect to the forum.. No doubt the mods will ensure that the support members give to those seeking advice on how best to resolve such cases could not be construed as such to bring the forum owners into disrepute. Anyway, as I said just an observation, and not intended to offend anyone.

That is valid i would have continued ngl, as i wasn’t aware of the consequences of my actions o thought it would just be a fine and didn’t realise the risk of how serious it was

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Dec 2021 ==

Doubt very much whether the OP will end up not having to pay, at the very least, an "out of court settlement" of at least three figures. And maybe quite a lot more if the investigations team ascertains that other occasions of having avoided paying the correct fare have taken place.

Honestly I’m hoping I can resolve the case with a settlement, not too worried with how much needs to be paid, Just do not want a criminal record at such a young age.

 

[30907]

That is valid i would have continued ngl, as i wasn’t aware of the consequences of my actions o thought it would just be a fine and didn’t realise the risk of how serious it was

Afraid not: Penalty Fares - which is I think what you mean by a fine - are not intended for people who deliberately avoid paying the correct fare, which is why they are taking matters further.

Honestly I’m hoping I can resolve the case with a settlement, not too worried with how much needs to be paid, Just do not want a criminal record at such a young age.

Please don't worry too much about this. If you are convicted and fined by the court, the worst-case scenario is that you will have a conviction that is "spent" after 12 months. Even if you have to inform a future employer, or it shows up on an enhanced DBS check, it is unlikely to stop you getting your preferred job.

 

[raybanz]

Afraid not: Penalty Fares - which is I think what you mean by a fine - are not intended for people who deliberately avoid paying the correct fare, which is why they are taking matters further.

Please don't worry too much about this. If you are convicted and fined by the court, the worst-case scenario is that you will have a conviction that is "spent" after 12 months. Even if you have to inform a future employer, or it shows up on an enhanced DBS check, it is unlikely to stop you getting your preferred job.

Yeah I was unaware of risk of a criminal record

 

[MotCO]

no more than suggesting in cases where the OP is knowingly committing an offence they be left to take whatever the courts throw at them, and I agree that everyone deserves some form of representation or advice,

There have been occasions (admittedly rare), where an OP thinks they have committed an offence, but in fact the ticket they had was valid for the journey they undertook. I think that the value of this forum is that impartial advice can be freely given; what any OP does with that advice is up to them.