Chester services

[Swirlz]

Exactly
But why is it?
It will be because there are poor frequencies and connections into Liverpool so people prefer to get the bus or drive and the cattle wagon the investment isn't as good as Arriva's put in. Its because the route was given to Wales & Borders who don't understand the connection and tie in to Liverpool.
But then the question is who do you give it to ..

My boss lives out that way and gets the bus in everyday as he says driving into the city is such a pain :/

I'm sure they do understand the "tie in", but what exactly do you want them to do?

Unless they get a 3rd unit, (where from?!) they can't extend to Birkenhead North, unless linespeeds are increased, performance will remain consistently poor, fares are already extremely cheap to Liverpool, with free travel in both the Welsh and Merseyside regions for pensioners/disabled... connections at Bidston to Liverpool involve a 5 min wait for most of the day... intentional and opportunist fare evasion is a massive issue at the southern end of the line, which probably doesn't help usage figures, and certainly doesn't make the line attractive.

Arriva Trains Wales run the line as best they can, but really it's down to Network Rail, DfT, Welsh Government, Merseytravel and Cheshire West council, (plus maybe Steelworks owners at Hawarden Bridge) to do something about it, not ATW!

The line is busiest on Saturdays, with 2-cars even being cramped, with some services seeing standing from around Neston/Heswall into Bidston. 3+4 car units won't fit on any platforms, and only 153/150 are able to be used! 99% of Liverpool bound passengers board at:

Wrexham Central/General
Buckley (probably the biggest flow to Liverpool on the line)
Hawarden
Shotton

The rest of the line is normally just local journeys going 3-4 stops.

Priorties for Bidston-Wrexham need to be:

1) 40mph sections increased to 60mph
2) 55mph section increased to 65/70mph
3) Extended to Birkenhead North
4) Probably the introduction of a third 150 to improve reliability and sustainability of timetable.

 

[martynbristow]

I'm sure they do understand the "tie in", but what exactly do you want them to do?

Unless they get a 3rd unit, (where from?!) they can't extend to Birkenhead North, unless linespeeds are increased, performance will remain consistently poor, fares are already extremely cheap to Liverpool, with free travel in both the Welsh and Merseyside regions for pensioners/disabled... connections at Bidston to Liverpool involve a 5 min wait for most of the day... intentional and opportunist fare evasion is a massive issue at the southern end of the line, which probably doesn't help usage figures, and certainly doesn't make the line attractive.

Arriva Trains Wales run the line as best they can, but really it's down to Network Rail, DfT, Welsh Government, Merseytravel and Cheshire West council, (plus maybe Steelworks owners at Hawarden Bridge) to do something about it, not ATW!

The line is busiest on Saturdays, with 2-cars even being cramped, with some services seeing standing from around Neston/Heswall into Bidston. 3+4 car units won't fit on any platforms, and only 153/150 are able to be used! 99% of Liverpool bound passengers board at:

Wrexham Central/General
Buckley (probably the biggest flow to Liverpool on the line)
Hawarden
Shotton

The rest of the line is normally just local journeys going 3-4 stops.

Priorties for Bidston-Wrexham need to be:

1) 40mph sections increased to 60mph
2) 55mph section increased to 65/70mph
3) Extended to Birkenhead North
4) Probably the introduction of a third 150 to improve reliability and sustainability of timetable.

Well by tie in, just some co-operation to try and increase business.
I remember issues when late running services on either party caused problems.

ATW have there hands tied I'll admit and but there is a lack of leadership on it. It doesn't help Merseyrail want to spend millions integrating it and haven't got the cash.
Just looked at the timetable:
If you commute into Liverpool if you miss the 18:23 your stuffed!!

I don't disagree with the prioritise its just funding them!
If its busy on a Saturday then theres clearly a market to develop during the week.

 

[Swirlz]

Well by tie in, just some co-operation to try and increase business.
I remember issues when late running services on either party caused problems.

ATW have there hands tied I'll admit and but there is a lack of leadership on it. It doesn't help Merseyrail want to spend millions integrating it and haven't got the cash.
Just looked at the timetable:
If you commute into Liverpool if you miss the 18:23 your stuffed!!

I don't disagree with the prioritise its just funding them!
If its busy on a Saturday then theres clearly a market to develop during the week.

Merseyrail wants naff all do to with the Bidston-Wrexham line, they really don't want to run services down there, and I wouldn't trust them to do so either to be honest, they have little or no experience of running services within rural/semi rural areas. I think they'd be a retrograde step.

Merseytravel, the PTE, however does want services to be integrated, but this could be achieved by providing funding for another Class 150 unit so that ATW could run into Liverpool James Street Platform 2, for example, mitigating the need to change trains, and offering a faster and more attractive service into Liverpool. Even if it ran non stop between Bidston and Birkenhead Hamilton Square, it would be a massive improvement.

That would be much cheaper than electrification of the line!

 

[martynbristow]

Merseyrail wants naff all do to with the Bidston-Wrexham line, they really don't want to run services down there, and I wouldn't trust them to do so either to be honest, they have little or no experience of running services within rural/semi rural areas. I think they'd be a retrograde step.

Merseytravel, the PTE, however does want services to be integrated, but this could be achieved by providing funding for another Class 150 unit so that ATW could run into Liverpool James Street Platform 2, for example, mitigating the need to change trains, and offering a faster and more attractive service into Liverpool. Even if it ran non stop between Bidston and Birkenhead Hamilton Square, it would be a massive improvement.

That would be much cheaper than electrification of the line!

Exactly that would work. I don't know about the use of a 150 in the tunnel through to James Street though.
There have been issues with the Network Rail diesel breaking down and casing havoc. There would need to be some way of recovery in the event of a breakdown.
But in the long run it would be a sensible plan without a large capital investment.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Exactly
But why is it?
It will be because there are poor frequencies and connections into Liverpool so people prefer to get the bus or drive and the cattle wagon the investment isn't as good as Arriva's put in. Its because the route was given to Wales & Borders who don't understand the connection and tie in to Liverpool.
But then the question is who do you give it to ..

My boss lives out that way and gets the bus in everyday as he says driving into the city is such a pain :/

Most of the usage on the line was from Chester Northgate with many services turning off at DeeMarsh Junction and then running north and south rather than through trains. The Becching traffic surveys showed all three arms had usage of 10000 a week plus and Northgate was a high earning station. Closing Dee Marsh to Northgate emasculated the Wrexham to Bidston left overs.

 

[Gareth]

Non Merseyrail services using the underground is a complete non-starter. Especially non-electrified.

 

[merlodlliw]

The rumblings go on about the Bidston/Wrexham line, the current North Wales Task Force for rail is giving it top priority for something to happen in the Deeside Park area, Airbus is the largest single site employer in Wales or West Cheshire a few yards away, not one of the thousands employed there use rail.

 

[edwin_m]

All the Airbus sites appear to be at least a mile from the nearest point on the Borderlands line, which is near Hawarden rather than Deeside. They are slightly closer to the North Wales main line but as discussed on here previously a new station would be on the wrong side of the airfield for most of the workplaces.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The rumblings go on about the Bidston/Wrexham line, the current North Wales Task Force for rail is giving it top priority for something to happen in the Deeside Park area, Airbus is the largest single site employer in Wales or West Cheshire a few yards away, not one of the thousands employed there use rail.

One has to consider where those employed there actually live (and use a car as their chosen mode of travel) and prefer a single "home to and from work direct journey" rather than to use rail travel with those extra journeys then needing to be made from home to the railway station and another from the railway station to their place of employment....and vice-versa.

 

[pablo]

The Borderlands service used to run into New Brighton. When the steel traffic from the docks to Shotton ceased , it was cut back to Birkenhead North and later terminated at Bidston to get away with using two single car Pacer type thingys. It used the original Craven or Derby two-car railcars IIRC. How many of those did the service need in dem der days?

 

[PHILIPE]

Merseyrail wants naff all do to with the Bidston-Wrexham line, they really don't want to run services down there, and I wouldn't trust them to do so either to be honest, they have little or no experience of running services within rural/semi rural areas. I think they'd be a retrograde step.

Merseytravel, the PTE, however does want services to be integrated, but this could be achieved by providing funding for another Class 150 unit so that ATW could run into Liverpool James Street Platform 2, for example, mitigating the need to change trains, and offering a faster and more attractive service into Liverpool. Even if it ran non stop between Bidston and Birkenhead Hamilton Square, it would be a massive improvement.

That would be much cheaper than electrification of the line!

They would have to find a 150 before funding one !!!

 

[TDK]

The rumblings go on about the Bidston/Wrexham line, the current North Wales Task Force for rail is giving it top priority for something to happen in the Deeside Park area, Airbus is the largest single site employer in Wales or West Cheshire a few yards away, not one of the thousands employed there use rail.

As they do diverse shifts at Airbus it would not be beneficial to buy a season ticket for rail, the only way it would work is if Airbus funded it themselves

 

[merlodlliw]

As they do diverse shifts at Airbus it would not be beneficial to buy a season ticket for rail, the only way it would work is if Airbus funded it themselves

The station used to serve De Havillands as it was then,was Broughton & Bretton on the Chester/Denbigh line. but then few had their own cars.

 

[martynbristow]

For airbus I don't see a huge benefit because it will have parking available
But the catchment area would a key consideration

 

[Taunton]

The Borderlands service used to run into New Brighton. When the steel traffic from the docks to Shotton ceased , it was cut back to Birkenhead North and later terminated at Bidston to get away with using two single car Pacer type thingys. It used the original Craven or Derby two-car railcars IIRC. How many of those did the service need in dem der days?

The answer to the last point is 12 2-car sets. Cars 50924-35 and 51561-72. Of course, using four bus engines to get a 2-car unit up the hill from Shotton to Hawarden was a bit costly. This is when the service also ran into Chester - which was the busiest of the three branches of the network, and if it had been diverted down into the main Chester station, even busier. A few services, at Summers steelworks shift change times, were even 4-car - that's 8 bus engines!

Incidentally, the New Brighton terminus, which hardly ever got any meaningful load beyond Bidston, was given up and diverted to Birkenhead North well before the iron ore trains ceased. I think it was when these latter stopped that the thought came to terminate at Bidston; before that there was no space available.

 

[fowler9]

Exactly that would work. I don't know about the use of a 150 in the tunnel through to James Street though.
There have been issues with the Network Rail diesel breaking down and casing havoc. There would need to be some way of recovery in the event of a breakdown.
But in the long run it would be a sensible plan without a large capital investment.

I honestly can't see in what way running 150's to James Street would be a sensible plan.

 

[pablo]

The answer to the last point is 12 2-car sets. Cars 50924-35 and 51561-72. Of course, using four bus engines to get a 2-car unit up the hill from Shotton to Hawarden was a bit costly. This is when the service also ran into Chester - which was the busiest of the three branches of the network, and if it had been diverted down into the main Chester station, even busier. A few services, at Summers steelworks shift change times, were even 4-car - that's 8 bus engines!

Incidentally, the New Brighton terminus, which hardly ever got any meaningful load beyond Bidston, was given up and diverted to Birkenhead North well before the iron ore trains ceased. I think it was when these latter stopped that the thought came to terminate at Bidston; before that there was no space available.

Your recollection is far better than mine. The iron ore chord at Bidston was cut back to a single headshunt to take the DMUs out of the way of WK services. Later, the Pacers just backed down the Borderlands line similarly. The downside of terminating at B'head North was that the EMUs had to use a tight curved turnoff, to pass the stationary DMU, via the north-east side of the island platform. It slowed 'em down and it looked like a heavy maintenance item.

 

[catfordbags]

Will the spare platform beside platform one at Chester ever be re-used ?

 

[driver_m]

Depends on whether there is a demand for it to need reopening to passengers rather than just for ecs like at present. 5 + 6 are too short for voyagers so it would be one of those handy reinstatements but can't justify the cost of altering the signals and platform updates.

 

[Holly]

In my view the biggest easily solved problem is the effect of the terrible roads and tiny parking around Chester Station.

The solution would be to extend the London trains that terminate at Chester to turn back at Hooton instead.
For passenger convenience they could split the timetable slack time between the two.

It probably means another unit to maintain or improve the frequency, but I'm guessing it would pay for itself.

 

[TDK]

Depends on whether there is a demand for it to need reopening to passengers rather than just for ecs like at present. 5 + 6 are too short for voyagers so it would be one of those handy reinstatements but can't justify the cost of altering the signals and platform updates.

The signals will not need to be altered as main aspect signals route you into the parcels bay and out. Currently only 150, 153, 156 & 142's are permitted. The cost of reopening the platform possibly as a platform 0 would only benefit trains terminating at Chester from the east and platforms 1 to 7 cope with this quite easily at the moment. A 5 car voyager can go into platform 1 with ease so why the need for the parcels bay to be reopened as a passenger platform?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

In my view the biggest easily solved problem is the effect of the terrible roads and tiny parking around Chester Station.

If you haven't been recently, the East car park has been replaced with a brand new and larger parking area to the other side of the Queen Hotel.
It's a bit further to walk down City Road, but at least it's not "3rd world" as I heard the old one described.
The old East park is now a building site - not clear what for.
The West car park is still an eyesore, with the disused footway to the Royal Mail depot clogging up useful car park space.

 

[Holly]

If you haven't been recently, the East car park has been replaced with a brand new and larger parking area to the other side of the Queen Hotel.
It's a bit further to walk down City Road, but at least it's not "3rd world" as I heard the old one described.
The old East park is now a building site - not clear what for.
The West car park is still an eyesore, with the disused footway to the Royal Mail depot clogging up useful car park space.

Thank you!

 

[driver_m]

The signals will not need to be altered as main aspect signals route you into the parcels bay and out. Currently only 150, 153, 156 & 142's are permitted. The cost of reopening the platform possibly as a platform 0 would only benefit trains terminating at Chester from the east and platforms 1 to 7 cope with this quite easily at the moment. A 5 car voyager can go into platform 1 with ease so why the need for the parcels bay to be reopened as a passenger platform?

Sorry I meant to put signalling. There's no tpws in the parcels. That was my point to the poster, it would be a handy plaform for flexibility but it couldn't ever be justified on cost unless some extra services from crewe appear. (which again I can't see happening)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The old East park is now a building site - not clear what for.

Looks like a big development has started around "Platform 0" at Chester station.
The old East car park and "P0" currently abut onto some historic but shabby buildings and outhouses.
These currently house the BTP and various Arriva staff facilities (stores, catering, Class 175 simulator etc).
It is set within a wider heritage area including the Queen Hotel, Lloyds Bank offices, the Shropshire Union Canal and the Shot Tower.

This web page: http://www.cheshirewestandchester.g...ging_city/chester_central_business_quart.aspx shows the development plan for the area.
Building work is under way, with the new East car park being the first new area completed.
The link at the bottom of the webpage takes you to a pdf update on progress and milestones over the next year.
It shows significant changes to the "P0" and old car park area, including new quarters for the BTP and Arriva offices.
Far from being a near-derelict backwater, this corner of the station looks like it will become part of a major new business zone for the city.