Chester-Liverpool quarter hourly

[Dolge]

The Network Rail site (Resource Library/Track Access/Current Consultations)
now has a track access aplication from Merseyrail Electrics for quarter hourly inter-peak, Monday-Saturday, Chester-Liverpool services from the December timetable change, as predicted here before by merlodiww.

21 extra trains each way (Saturdays), alternate trains omitting Capenhurst (but not Bache). The application specifies that:
- no problems are anticipated with occupancy of Platform 7 at Chester
- services will be managed with existing fleet with revised maintenance arrangements
- Ellesmere Ports will be slightly retimed
- improved service resiliency is expected from the performance bjuffer given by omitting Cappenhurst on alternate trains.

A rare improvement then, in the current climate, presumably funded by Merseytravel.

 

[4SRKT]

How will the Ellesmere Port trains be fitted in? Will the service actually be every 10 minutes to Hooton, with trains to Chester at alternate 10 and 20 minute intervals rather tha quarter hourly, with the EP trains filling in the gaps?

 

[fgwrich]

Hhhhhhmmmm

Wonder if they will be interested in taking on more of the stored 508s then?

 

[northwichcat]

Hhhhhhmmmm

Wonder if they will be interested in taking on more of the stored 508s then?

Well considering they sent some all the way up and Merseyrail looked at them, decided they needed too much maintainence doing to take them on and they returned all the way back down I think it's very unlikely. They'll do a Northern approach and have less flexible maintainence schedules to be able to run more services.

 

[Dolge]

How will the Ellesmere Port trains be fitted in? Will the service actually be every 10 minutes to Hooton, with trains to Chester at alternate 10 and 20 minute intervals rather tha quarter hourly, with the EP trains filling in the gaps?

Don't know. The application just says

"As a result of the above, it will be necessary to slightly retime services between Ellesmere Port and Hooton in both directions, in order to ensure the most robust timetable possible north of Hooton."

I would guess they want to keep 15 minute intervals from/to Chester as these are commercially valuable, so the EP's will run in between, giving a 15/7.5/7.5/15 interval pattern to Hooton.

And on 507/508's it says:

"The existing Class 507/508 EMU fleet will be utilised to operate the enhanced service and Merseyrail Electrics has revised its maintenance planning and delivery process in order to ensure that sufficient rolling stock is available to operate the additional services".

so presumably they are trying to avoid the extra leasing costs.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Incidentally the same part of the NR site has a Scotrail track access application, principally in respect of Airdrie-Batghgate servies.

 

[merlodlliw]

Ill ask a few questions, then get back with chapter and verse. But 15 min Chester/Pool is on the cards, some with limited stops,


M

 

[The Planner]

That route is so self contained it is basically Merseyrails personal train set.

 

[daikilo]

That route is so self contained it is basically Merseyrails personal train set.

Indeed, who knows better how to serve its population than the local authority? Sir, pls be careful with yr words, I am sure you intended to be supportive.

Pls remember that third rail stopped at Rock Ferry a couple of decades ago and was a huge negative to direct flows. If I were Merseyside I would do what I can to make many more transport flows direct, south of the river with Bidston-Neston and then the reinstated rail Wirral Way and probably many north of the Mersey.

 

[The Planner]

Why is it interesting ?? am I wrong then ???

 

[ukrob]

This has been known about for around 18 months, I'm not sure why you say that merlodlliw predicted it.

I am surprised though that they have gone back on what they originally envisaged by NOT omitting Bache on alternate services.

 

[daikilo]

Why is it interesting ?? am I wrong then ???

Likely yes, but to be confirmed. Suggesting Mersyrail is a trainset is in my opnion a very negative statement re a Region who has a clear transport vision based on growth of our rail roots.

Pls dissociate yr every day life from what is likely best for the locality/region and then Britain.

 

[Pumbaa]

Hhhhhhmmmm

Wonder if they will be interested in taking on more of the stored 508s then?

The Network Rail site (Resource Library/Track Access/Current Consultations)
- services will be managed with existing fleet with revised maintenance arrangements

That'll be a no then.

 

[ukrob]

Suggesting Mersyrail is a trainset is in my opnion a very negative statement re a Region who has a clear transport vision based on growth of our rail roots.

I think you are being a bit sensitive.

 

[daikilo]

Why is it interesting ?? am I wrong then ???

Likely yes, but to be confirmed. Suggesting Mersyrail is a trainset is in my opnion a very negative statement re a Region who has a clear transport vision based on growth of our rail roots.

Pls dissociate yr every day life from what is likely best for the locality/region and then Britain.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think you are being a bit sensitive.

Rob, sorry, I am trying to be constructive. This issue is about as sensitive as a 1 tonne slice of slate moving down a slope at speed.

I have absolutely no doubt that energy efficiency implies rail must expand. I would like all of us who inherently believe this to contribute as best we can.

 

[ukrob]

I have got no idea what relevance that has to you overreacting to a light-hearted comment that Merseyrail is a playset.

 

[merlodlliw]

This has been known about for around 18 months, I'm not sure why you say that merlodlliw predicted it.

I am surprised though that they have gone back on what they originally envisaged by NOT omitting Bache on alternate services.

He probably means I have given comment on it, as I had info from various sources not generally available, these sources seemed to favour December.
I must have quoted this.

M

 

[tbtc]

Shame the Chester - Crewe line isn't wired - it would allow most Virgin services to be EMU run (beyond a handful of Holyhead trips) and potential for dual voltage EMUs to run Liverpool - Wirral - Chester - Crewe, which would give Birkenhead (etc) a direct link to the WCML (and onward connections) rather than having to go into Liverpool Lime Street

Pls dissociate yr every day life from what is likely best for the locality/region and then Britain.

Please use real words

 

[northwichcat]

Shame the Chester - Crewe line isn't wired - it would allow most Virgin services to be EMU run (beyond a handful of Holyhead trips)

Almost all London-North Wales services are doubled up Voyagers, where they spilt at Chester and one returns to London while the other continues to North Wales and joins up to a different Voyager on it's way back down again. So your proposal would need an EMU that is compatiable with a DEMU.

 

[MCR247]

Or a panto-coach voyager.

 

[northwichcat]

Or a panto-coach voyager.

I'm not sure they can go to 12 coach and still fit at both Crewe and Chester, but they could always replace a coach with a panto-coach and send the coaches to XC to make more 5 car Voyagers.

 

[nedchester]

and my local station is...................Capenhurst!!!! :-x

 

[Green Lane]

and my local station is...................Capenhurst!!!! :-x

Standing at Capenhurst as I was the other week on a Sunday afternoon, two cyclists from Bolton were waiting for the train. One assumed the train would be five minutes late, but the other pointed out to him "no, no, these Merseyrail trains run ridiculously on time!", of course the train departed to the exact second on time.

Indeed, the network is incredibly self contained, but that's good in terms of a very high rate of punctuality.

When trains actually did run late a couple of weeks back due to a signalling issue at Hamilton Square, it seemed a highly unusual event!

I could sit here and fantasise about what might have happened had we not lost our mainline station "Birkenhead Woodside" in the Beeching era and about direct long distance services from the Wirral (used to be to Paddington), but truthfully I like the sytem the way it is now. I think it works really well as we only have the local "commuter" traffic on the local lines, it's usually a very efficient system, and never really a problem to change at Liverpool or Chester for long distance services. Obviously the Liverpool Loop is the key to the Wirral Line in terms of convenient access to ongoing rail connections.

Perhaps I wouldn't like it so much if I didn't hold my annual Merseytravel PTE ticket though!

 

[tbtc]

Almost all London-North Wales services are doubled up Voyagers, where they spilt at Chester and one returns to London while the other continues to North Wales and joins up to a different Voyager on it's way back down again. So your proposal would need an EMU that is compatiable with a DEMU.

Looking at the current timetable MF you have from London:

07.10 - Chester
08.10 - Bangor
09.10 - Holyhead
10.10 - Chester
11.10 - Chester
12.10 - Chester
13.10 - Chester
14.10 - Chester
15.10 - Chester
16.10 - Bangor
17.10 - Holyhead
18.10 - Holyhead & Wrexham
19.10 - Holyhead
20.10 - Chester

So for most of the day EMUs would be fine. You'd need some 57s for the two morning/ four evening trips (ignore Wrexham, since Virgin won't be serving it long term)

We need a medium-long distance EMU for routes like this/ London - Norwich/ possible Midland Mainline electrification etc - not as big/ fast as a 390, but still comfortable for journeys of a couple of hours

 

[merlodlliw]

Shame the Chester - Crewe line isn't wired - it would allow most Virgin services to be EMU run (beyond a handful of Holyhead trips) and potential for dual voltage EMUs to run Liverpool - Wirral - Chester - Crewe, which would give Birkenhead (etc) a direct link to the WCML (and onward connections) rather than having to go into Liverpool Lime Street



Please use real words

Too late now to run trains Lime street to Crewe via Chester, as for Birkenhead
there is a train every few minutes to the WCML at Lime Street, lucky Chester /Lime Street was 3rd railed a few years ago, when costings were sensible.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Looking at the current timetable MF you have from London:


18.10 - Holyhead & Wrexham

(ignore Wrexham, since Virgin won't be serving it long term)

...................................................................................................

Fully agree, its time limited,and was only put on as a spoiler, who ever takes over WCML will kill it, in the A.M it arrives just after 5.30a.m. idles for 90 minutes, then transports locals to Chester at 7.00a.m., same in the evenings Chester to Wrexham, Neither ATW or Virgin who dreamed up this service have gained extra traffic, only missed connections for locals,.

 

[mickey]

I'm not sure they can go to 12 coach and still fit at both Crewe and Chester, but they could always replace a coach with a panto-coach and send the coaches to XC to make more 5 car Voyagers.

Chester's got some huge platforms so I doubt this would be a problem.

Anyway, back to topic, I have no problem with the new arrangement as long as they don't go back after a while to the rumoured suggestion of cutting back on Ellesmere Port and they can cope with the new maintenance. On the latter at least I trust their judgement - after all, they use some of the spare units twice a day anyway for Hooton-only services and to double up - both of which will presumably now stop anyway?

 

[northwichcat]

So for most of the day EMUs would be fine. You'd need some 57s for the two morning/ four evening trips (ignore Wrexham, since Virgin won't be serving it long term)

You also need to look at the northbound operations in conjunction with the southbound operations. For example, the 11:10 to Chester joins to the 13:58 ex. Holyhead for the return service.

Virgin aren't that keen on using diesel hauled Pendolinos as it means you need a driver to sit in the Pendolino while another one drives the train using the diesel loco, so it's a bit wasteful with resources.

We need a medium-long distance EMU for routes like this/ London - Norwich/ possible Midland Mainline electrification etc - not as big/ fast as a 390, but still comfortable for journeys of a couple of hours

Crewe-London running needs to allow for 125mph titling operation otherwise Virgin would have to cut back their VHF timetable, but if you mean the new EMU wouldn't need a 140mph top speed then fine.

 

[4SRKT]

Virgin aren't that keen on using diesel hauled Pendolinos as it means you need a driver to sit in the Pendolino while another one drives the train using the diesel loco, so it's a bit wasteful with resources.

Surely a longer term solution that removed this need, such as with 33/1 + TC formations would be sensible. Would also remove the need for run rounds.

 

[Welshman]

Or you could always go the whole way and electrify Crewe-Holyhead.
[Sorry - silly suggestion. Wash out my mouth with carbolic soda!]

 

[MCR247]

For a handful of Virgin services? If you did you'd need to wire Swansea/Carmathen etc to Crewe and the valleys?

 

[tbtc]

Or you could always go the whole way and electrify Crewe-Holyhead.
[Sorry - silly suggestion. Wash out my mouth with carbolic soda!]

If you did, you could wire Crewe - Chester - Holyhead, Manchester to Earlstown, Warrington to Chester & Llandudno Junction - Llandudno (forget Blaenau Ffestiniog). Chop the majority of the Cardiff services back to Chester, and you have a pretty good set of electric routes, plus an additional wired route from Manchester to London (e.g. if the Stockport route is blocked). Half hourly from Chester to Manchester/ Crewe/ Llandudno Junction, so good connections all round. Everyone's a winner.