Chester-Liverpool Express

[LNW-GW Joint]

Passengers on the 1231 Chester-Liverpool Merseyrail service had an unusually fast journey today.
The incoming train was late, and when it arrived it was announced as being non-stop to Moorfields, no doubt to catch up with its diagram.
It left 9 late at 1240, and following it on realtimetrains, it had picked up its arrears by Port Sunlight, and reached Birkenhead Central in 20 minutes (4 early).
It waited there for its path round the loop, and then continued, missing out Hamilton Square and James St, and reached Moorfields in 29 minutes from Chester instead of the normal 40 minutes.
Without the wait at Birkenhead it could have done the trip in 25 minutes.
It's a pity there are not some regular trains like this in the timetable.
However, as I was going to Hooton, I had to wait for the next train...

 

[Gareth]

Yes, I like the idea of express trains for the outer areas of Merseyrail. For the Wirral Line, at least, I'd consider Chester and Ellesmere Port trains to miss out the stops between, say, Rock Ferry & Hooton, to be complimented by an all stations service to Hooton. It would probably need an overhaul of the service map to denote individual services rather than physical lines, as it currently does.

 

[Techniquest]

There's been a need for faster trains from Chester to Liverpool for way too long, however I don't see a new timetable ever giving us such a thing. Not without major infrastructure changes, and besides, some people still get on the wrong train regardless of PIS, announcements etc. Like last time I was on the Wirral lines, two women got on an Ellesmere Port train wanting Chester, if they'd looked at the screens or opened their ears they'd have known not to get on it. Fortunately I was able to advise them to get off at Little Sutton for the next one back and told them every single step they needed to get back for a train to Chester. Bet they still fogged it up though!

Why am I mentioning this? Well if people still get it wrong with all-stations services, they're going to get it even worse if expresses were introduced!

As for making the train super express from Chester after just a 9 minute delay, that seems a bit much to me. I mean imagine if that sort of thing happened elsewhere, especially on the Intercity routes!

 

[Tracky]

When they introduced the 15 minute frequency for Chester I was disappointed they didn't make one of them a flyer. It makes sense to me to do so. The passengers would, on the whole get used to it and the ones who made mistakes would just get the next train back!

I also believe the Wrexham Bidston line should introduce a third train into the cycle calling only at the more populated stations. Wrexham-Liverpool could be done within the hour including a change, particularly with some line speed increases (please) following recent works.

As for the comment about making up time... You need to do this kind of thing on routes such as the Wirral line from time to time. Missing stations doesn't achieve time savings on intercity routes but does in this case. With a Cardiff - Manchester or a Euston Chester you are more likely to see a train turned back early - though it obviously needs more delay to make that happen.

 

[Johnny Lewis]

I wish consideration would be given to a fast Liverpool to Southport service too - prior to 1977, when Merseyrail services went into Liverpool Exchange, there WAS a fast train once an hour, that was first stop Formby or something like that. The journey up to Southport is so tedious that travelling via Wigan is a less tedious option.

 

[Class83]

The problem with operating an express service on the route is that it would make what is currently a relatively simple service much more complicated, both for passengers and for pathing trains and all for a time saving between Liverpool and Chester of ~15 minutes. Is the passenger flow predominantly Liverpool to Chester or is there a significant amount of commuter traffic at each end and limited end to end demand?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The problem with operating an express service on the route is that it would make what is currently a relatively simple service much more complicated, both for passengers and for pathing trains and all for a time saving between Liverpool and Chester of ~15 minutes. Is the passenger flow predominantly Liverpool to Chester or is there a significant amount of commuter traffic at each end and limited end to end demand?

It's both, with the bulk of passengers picking up into Liverpool.
Chester gets a good base load but not anything like the Liverpool traffic.
However, the 13 stops/45 minutes from Chester to Liverpool is a turn-off for through passengers, despite the 4tph now offered.
Chester is also the only station on Merseyrail outside Liverpool City Centre with a signification volume of connecting passengers.
Many other lines have a semi-fast/skip-stop pattern, but not this one.
I think the Chester trains could miss out several stations when they are followed by an Ellesmere Port stopper.
Everybody on the main line would still have 4tph.

 

[Tracky]

A saving of 15 mins on a 45 min journey is considerable and I believe there are enough passengers going the whole way to justify it.

 

[Dunc108]

I wish consideration would be given to a fast Liverpool to Southport service too - prior to 1977, when Merseyrail services went into Liverpool Exchange, there WAS a fast train once an hour, that was first stop Formby or something like that. The journey up to Southport is so tedious that travelling via Wigan is a less tedious option.

Yes, I've seen pictures of that, I think it operated in the peak (not sure about off-peak) and was called the "Southport Express". I think if it also had a 1st class section for businessmen?

 

[Techniquest]

Many other lines have a semi-fast/skip-stop pattern, but not this one.

I'm struggling to think which Merseyrail routes have a skip-stop service of any variety. Certainly nothing on the Wirral or Northern lines comes to mind, with the only thing on Merseyside like it at all really being the Liverpool to Manchester Airport services and those to/from Blackpool North.

As for Southport, aye it's a really boring run. My furthest run on that route in recent years is Sandhills-Waterloo, and even that was torture. I feel sorry for anyone who has to suffer the entire route every day, it's enough to drive you to alcoholism...

 

[Tracky]

Mainline routes normally squeeze stopping trains between flyers.

 

[theshillito]

Mainline routes normally squeeze stopping trains between flyers.

True, but with the high frequency of Merseyrail services, I don't think there'd be much space, though I'm no diagram expert.

I'm struggling to think which Merseyrail routes have a skip-stop service of any variety

ME's service from Chester to Liverpool is every 15 minutes, but only half of them stop at Capenhurst. I'm told that they do that in order to keep that frequency for Chester, so I guess that's a "skip-stop service" of a sort. I don't think ME do that anywhere else on their network though. It's the odd-station out.

 

[Techniquest]

True, but with the high frequency of Merseyrail services, I don't think there'd be much space, though I'm no diagram expert.

Forget about the space, it's more about the availability of EMUs for the service that's important here. There's not even close to enough 507s and 508s to double-up on services that need it. Southport services on a sunny/warm/both day, particularly at the weekend, sees such passenger demand that 6-car trains are a must but all you get for the majority of the day are 3-car trains that are packed to the rafters! And yes, before you ask, I have suffered such experiences on the Southport line!

ME's service from Chester to Liverpool is every 15 minutes, but only half of them stop at Capenhurst. I'm told that they do that in order to keep that frequency for Chester, so I guess that's a "skip-stop service" of a sort. I don't think ME do that anywhere else on their network though. It's the odd-station out.

It is indeed the only such example on the Merseyrail empire, although I would hardly call it a skip-stop service. If it was not stopping at various other stations as well, then that would be different.

Curious though, where should an express from Chester to Liverpool call at? In my eyes, it would be Hooton, Bromborough, Birkenhead Central, Hamilton Square, James Street, Moorfields, Lime Street and Central.

 

[fowler9]

Is there really any space for some trains to run fast once they get to the loop at Hamilton Square through to James Street, around Liverpool and back again. I doubt it without some really odd service frequencies further out. It is pretty much clock face at the moment with not much room for anything else.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm struggling to think which Merseyrail routes have a skip-stop service of any variety. Certainly nothing on the Wirral or Northern lines comes to mind, with the only thing on Merseyside like it at all really being the Liverpool to Manchester Airport services and those to/from Blackpool North.

As for Southport, aye it's a really boring run. My furthest run on that route in recent years is Sandhills-Waterloo, and even that was torture. I feel sorry for anyone who has to suffer the entire route every day, it's enough to drive you to alcoholism...

One of the team managers in our place does Southport to Liverpool South Parkway every day. I'd find another job given the weird shifts we work. After his travel costs he probably takes home less than me (In fact I know he does) despite being a manager.

 

[Techniquest]

Is there really any space for some trains to run fast once they get to the loop at Hamilton Square through to James Street, around Liverpool and back again. I doubt it without some really odd service frequencies further out. It is pretty much clock face at the moment with not much room for anything else.

I'd suggest there isn't really. I forget exactly what time Chester trains leave, but memory suggests it's xx00, xx15, xx30 and xx45 from Central. So let's say that's the case, and an express Chester service leaves at xx12. I'd suggest by Rock Ferry it would be chasing tail lights of the previous xx00 Chester service, certainly by Spital.

One of the team managers in our place does Southport to Liverpool South Parkway every day. I'd find another job given the weird shifts we work. After his travel costs he probably takes home less than me (In fact I know he does) despite being a manager.

Ouch, that's pretty awful

 

[fowler9]

I'd suggest there isn't really. I forget exactly what time Chester trains leave, but memory suggests it's xx00, xx15, xx30 and xx45 from Central. So let's say that's the case, and an express Chester service leaves at xx12. I'd suggest by Rock Ferry it would be chasing tail lights of the previous xx00 Chester service, certainly by Spital.



Ouch, that's pretty awful

I agree on both counts. The second one about him having less cash than me concerns me more. Has he not thought it through or is he trapped.

 

[tractakid]

I had the joy of being on a fast train from Birkenhead to Chester the other week. Wheeeeee!

 

[Gareth Marston]

I had the joy of being on a fast train from Birkenhead to Chester the other week. Wheeeeee!

Bring back Birkenhead to Paddongton expresses!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Curious though, where should an express from Chester to Liverpool call at? In my eyes, it would be Hooton, Bromborough, Birkenhead Central, Hamilton Square, James Street, Moorfields, Lime Street and Central.

I'd add Bebington to that list, always well used.
Green Lane is the most useless stop, Bache not far behind.

I was thinking about the CLC route out of Liverpool for skip-stopping.
The 2tph Oxford Road slows have different stopping patterns to allow the semi-fasts to work.

 

[fowler9]

I'd add Bebington to that list, always well used.
Green Lane is the most useless stop, Bache not far behind.

I was thinking about the CLC route out of Liverpool for skip-stopping.
The 2tph Oxford Road slows have different stopping patterns to allow the semi-fasts to work.

The thing is for most of the day the CLC has 4tph but only 1 of them stops everywhere. Heading out of Liverpool the Northern Rail services are scheduled to leave just after the TPE and East Midland services. I don't think a similar pattern would really work on Chester to Liverpool.

 

[martynbristow]

Merseyrail express is something I thought ages ago as I used to live Ormskirk way and hated shuffling up the line.
The problem is how do you fit express trains into the current operation.
You could drop to 1 stopper and 1 fast every 20 minutes but you would probably run out of rolling stock.
Its an impressive journey time 25 minutes to chester
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Green Lane is actually on of the busier stations if you read the stations usage report, and it has speed restrictions on the bank so you might as well pick me up

 

[theshillito]

Shame there aren't more stations like Hooton with more than two through platforms, as you could have stoppers waiting for expresses to pass.

 

[martynbristow]

You have the option for it at Rock Ferry to expand if you have some £££s

 

[razor89]

As for making the train super express from Chester after just a 9 minute delay, that seems a bit much to me. I mean imagine if that sort of thing happened elsewhere, especially on the Intercity routes!

A 9 minute delay that (especially on busy days) can easily turn into 15 minutes or more if left to run. It would lose its path round the loop and therefore causing delays in the area to itself and other trains, and with only around 5 mins turnaround at Chester, it would never make up the time! I should point out that, up until recently, this train would simply have been cancelled and sent empty up to Birkenhead.

 

[Chapeltom]

The thing is for most of the day the CLC has 4tph but only 1 of them stops everywhere. Heading out of Liverpool the Northern Rail services are scheduled to leave just after the TPE and East Midland services. I don't think a similar pattern would really work on Chester to Liverpool.

The CLC stoppers are odd ones, they either serve as a general rule 1tph most stations from Manchester OR to Warrington Central, then fast. The other 1tph will be limited stop to Warrington Central then all stops to Lime St.

Generally in the 4tp2h, 1 :16 leaving MCO will stop at Trafford Park and Humperhey Park. The alternate hour :16 leaving MCO will stop at Chassen Road/Glazebrook - both of which miss out Halewood, Hunts Cross, Edge Hill at the other end. The other 2tp2h will serve Urmston, Irlam, Birchwood, Padgate. and all stops to Lime St.

 

[northwichcat]

There's been a need for faster trains from Chester to Liverpool for way too long, however I don't see a new timetable ever giving us such a thing.

It was proposed when Chester-Liverpool went to 4tph that half would be non-stop between Chester and Birkenhead but then Merseytravel dismissed the idea as not feasible as they thought it would be too confusing for passengers at Wirral stations.

 

[martynbristow]

Hmm what world we live in.
Although I find the odd discussion on the train interesting, when they get dead excited its a loop :/

 

[bb21]

The CLC stoppers are odd ones, they either serve as a general rule 1tph most stations from Manchester OR to Warrington Central, then fast. The other 1tph will be limited stop to Warrington Central then all stops to Lime St.

Generally in the 4tp2h, 1 :16 leaving MCO will stop at Trafford Park and Humperhey Park. The alternate hour :16 leaving MCO will stop at Chassen Road/Glazebrook - both of which miss out Halewood, Hunts Cross, Edge Hill at the other end. The other 2tp2h will serve Urmston, Irlam, Birchwood, Padgate. and all stops to Lime St.

CLC?

Sorry but I am unable to decipher it. Chassen Road?

 

[Pumbaa]

Cheshire Lines Committee

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheshire_Lines_Committee

The name affectionately given by some (I don't think it's the engineers line reference) to the Liverpool - Manchester route via Widnes and Warrington.

 

[northwichcat]

Cheshire Lines Committee

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheshire_Lines_Committee

The name affectionately given by some (I don't think it's the engineers line reference) to the Liverpool - Manchester route via Widnes and Warrington.

You do see the name 'Cheshire Line Committee' on a building near Warrington when travelling on the CLC route.