Cheshire East want tram system for Crewe

[northwichcat]

I think this is in response to the proposed site for the new Crewe station being so far from the town centre. A route is shown as going between the new Crewe station and Coppenhall with a spur off it going to the Bentley Motors site.

CHESHIRE East Council wants to turn the current Crewe station into a tram hub – if the town is given a new station along the route of HS2.

The authority has drawn up a series of tram train links and bus routes they want built across the town to ease growing levels of congestion, connecting key employment sites such as Bentley and the Cumberland Arena.

Cheshire East Council wants people to ‘say yes’ to HS2 – as long as it means Crewe gets a new hub and a new train station.

The Government’s current preferred option for HS2 does not include a dedicated HS2 station at Crewe. Instead, trains would serve the town on existing rail lines by joining the West Coast Main Line at Basford.

But CEC leader, clr Michael Jones, alongside the Cheshire and Warrington Local Enterprise Partnership and the Local Transport Body, is pushing for a new station.

He said: “Crewe is unique in that it offers a gateway to the north and south of the country and already has a rich heritage embedded within the railway industry.

“We need to regenerate the town centre and bring people in as well as improve the retail offer. To do this we need better transport links.

“The future is extremely bright for Crewe but effective travel links and a high-quality retail offer is vital and we believe this could be the answer.”

People are being urged to back the campaign and leave their supporting comments at: www.cheshireeast.gov.uk/hs2 Network Rail supports the bid for an HS2 hub station, meaning travel to the capital could be achieved in under an hour.

http://www.creweguardian.co.uk/news...rss&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
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The same story on the Cheshire East website refers to using 'tram-trains' http://www.cheshireeast.gov.uk/coun...anuary_2014/hs2__bid_could_attract_trams.aspx

 

[MK Tom]

Good luck to them I say!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The tram lines shown on the map are such that this is a very small project with few tram stops. Thinking of the cost of the purchasing of the tram fleet and the infrastructural works that would be required in order to facilitate the tram system, I fear that the flexibility of buses would be a far more cost effective answer to this particular aspiration.

 

[northwichcat]

Thinking of the cost of the purchasing of the tram fleet and the infrastructural works that would be required in order to facilitate the tram system, I fear that the flexibility of buses would be a far more cost effective answer to this particular aspiration.

I imagine they'll want to do an add-on to an existing order for vehicles, such as the proposed tram-train order for Marple.

 

[Amberley54]

Nearly All tram and trolley bus networks started with a single route.

However, I think there is bob hope chance of this idea growing legs and moving beyond the fancy diagram stage.

Much prefer to see proper bus priority schemes on key routes with meaningful modal link with heavy rail.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Great opportunity to spend a few hundred thousand £ on consultants reports from their friends / former colleagues in the big consultancies, money which could otherwise be better spent on home care assistants for the elderly / infirm.

 

[martinsh]

Great opportunity to spend a few hundred thousand £ on consultants reports from their friends / former colleagues in the big consultancies, money which could otherwise be better spent on home care assistants for the elderly / infirm.

Or supporting my local bus route !

 

[6Gman]

Cheshire East at its worst!

Half-baked, quarter thought through, grandiose idea.

 

[Amberley54]

Cheshire East at its worst!

Half-baked, quarter thought through, grandiose idea.

Yepp. One does wonder where the new chief exec can start sorting out the absolute shambles at East Cheshire Council.

However, I suspect whilst Mr Jones remains as leader the answer will be very long in arriving, if ever. The lengthening list of examples of ineptitude, waste and lost opportunities over the past few of years has been awful, with no immediate prospect of any improvement.

While Nero scrapes his fiddle and tilts at windmills in the sky, our bus network disintegrates at an accelerating pace.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I imagine they'll want to do an add-on to an existing order for vehicles, such as the proposed tram-train order for Marple.

One has to remember what the differences are between the Manchester Metrolink system that has its door heights at a level to access platforms on former heavy-rail routes, as would be the case for any new tram-train fleet that is on the Marple line and the other ground-level access systems operated elsewhere. I cannot see any Crewe-based tram system being of the same type as that of the Manchester Metrolink system.

Do you envisage any similarity to the Crewe area tram proposals to that of the Preston Trampower proposals ?

Are any of the other light-rail operator's projects likely to be ordering new fleets, that such an add-on to which you allude could be attached ?

 

[fowler9]

Blimey, if we can't get a tram system going in Liverpool I can't see how Crewe will do it. That said our council are a shower of halfwits.

 

[northwichcat]

I cannot see any Crewe-based tram system being of the same type as that of the Manchester Metrolink system.

The proposed route includes the current Crewe station as a calling point and the proposal assumes Crewe station is relocated as part of HS2 and also there's a reference to tram-trains being used opposed to ordinary trams. If tram-trains are used then low floor platforms create more barriers than high floor platforms, which is why a tram-train trial involving Metrolink was dismissed.

 

[WatcherZero]

Since the Crewe proposal is running along existing rail corridors, no street running and using at least one existing station high floor may well be the best candidate for them, particularly if they can use any supplier Metrolink might use.

Cheshire West did a couple of years ago propose a rather far fetched idea of street running Chester trams running onwards into the centre of Manchester. The killer is there isnt enough people living inbetween to generate the patronage to support that kind of frequent urban connection for a half hourly service as the cost analysis of extensions of the Altrincham line prove. Really for that kind of proposal you need a continous corridor of urban/suburban development with only short rural gaps.

That said, the fact Crewe town council were taken completly by surprise by the proposal indicates Cheshire East havent been keeping a proper dialog going with them and brings back memories of the disputes over transport schemes between district and county councils in Cambridge and Nottingham.

 

[Polo Mint]

Crewe isn't urban enough for a proper tram network.

Can't HS2 just use the current station?

 

[northwichcat]

Cheshire West did a couple of years ago propose a rather far fetched idea of street running Chester trams running onwards into the centre of Manchester. The killer is there isnt enough people living inbetween to generate the patronage to support that kind of frequent urban connection for a half hourly service as the cost analysis of extensions of the Altrincham line prove. Really for that kind of proposal you need a continous corridor of urban/suburban development with only short rural gaps.

The tram-train analysis was based on either half of Altrincham services continuing to Hale to give Hale a service every 12 minutes, the alternative idea was based on increasing the frequency on the Altrincham line to every 5 minutes and every fourth tram-train continuing to Knutsford. The cost was much higher than expected because it included replacing all M5000s on the Altrincham line with tram-trains so they could share track with heavy rail at Navigation Road.

The Cheshire West idea of having tram-trains running from Chester city centre to Altrincham was very optimistic as Network Rail analysis came to the conclusion that an increase in off-peak frequency couldn't be justified west of Greenbank currently.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The tram-train analysis was based on either half of Altrincham services continuing to Hale to give Hale a service every 12 minutes, the alternative idea was based on increasing the frequency on the Altrincham line to every 5 minutes and every fourth tram-train continuing to Knutsford. The cost was much higher than expected because it included replacing all M5000s on the Altrincham line with tram-trains so they could share track with heavy rail at Navigation Road.

How would the number of daily freight trains passing between Altrincham and Knutsford have affected the tram and tram-train envisaged service provision.

 

[northwichcat]

How would the number of daily freight trains passing between Altrincham and Knutsford have affected the tram and tram-train envisaged service provision.

Either Metrolink would have had to switch to single line operation at times when a freight train was due or a southbound tram would have to be held at Timperley for a couple of minutes to let the freight clear. With passenger trains I imagine it wouldn't be an issue given at Stockport departures from the same platform can be a couple of minutes apart provided that Metrolink trams were held if they weren't running to time and Northern Rail services were on time.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The tram-train analysis was based on either half of Altrincham services continuing to Hale to give Hale a service every 12 minutes, the alternative idea was based on increasing the frequency on the Altrincham line to every 5 minutes and every fourth tram-train continuing to Knutsford. The cost was much higher than expected because it included replacing all M5000s on the Altrincham line with tram-trains so they could share track with heavy rail at Navigation Road.

The Cheshire West idea of having tram-trains running from Chester city centre to Altrincham was very optimistic as Network Rail analysis came to the conclusion that an increase in off-peak frequency couldn't be justified west of Greenbank currently.

I don't get this obsession with tram-trains. Why would I want to travel from Chester to Manchester, or Huddersfield to Sheffield on a tram? Even if it did get me closer to the centre than proper trains can (I ignore any comment on whether pacers can be considered either comfortable or proper) If the traffic is all short distance, fine, but what proportion of passengers is that? The benefits of trams seem to be put forward as higher capacity, but that is standing areas at the expense of seating. It would be enough to put me off travelling any such route.

 

[northwichcat]

I don't get this obsession with tram-trains. Why would I want to travel from Chester to Manchester, or Huddersfield to Sheffield on a tram? Even if it did get me closer to the centre than proper trains can (I ignore any comment on whether pacers can be considered either comfortable or proper) If the traffic is all short distance, fine, but what proportion of passengers is that? The benefits of trams seem to be put forward as higher capacity, but that is standing areas at the expense of seating. It would be enough to put me off travelling any such route.

In the case of Mid-Cheshire line stations the journey time used to be 33 minutes between Knutsford and Manchester pre-Metrolink conversion of the Altrincham line, it's now up to 48 minutes while changing to Metrolink at Altrincham doesn't necessarily get you there quicker. In fact in the southbound direction a missed connection can leave you waiting at Altrincham for an hour and with Metrolink not running to a proper timetable it can easily happen.

In the case of Chester if they wanted tram-trains the best option would be a tram-train route running Chester city centre to Chester station to Runcorn to Liverpool South Parkway to Liverpool Airport. There's never been a viable business case put forward for running tram-trains between Chester and Northwich - ordering new DMUs would have a better business case.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In the case of Mid-Cheshire line stations the journey time used to be 33 minutes between Knutsford and Manchester pre-Metrolink conversion of the Altrincham line, it's now up to 48 minutes while changing to Metrolink at Altrincham doesn't necessarily get you there quicker. In fact in the southbound direction a missed connection can leave you waiting at Altrincham for an hour and with Metrolink not running to a proper timetable it can easily happen.

But surely, having knowledge of this fact, you would make allowances to ensure that you had ample spare time to change from Manchester Metrolink at Altrincham Interchange to the heavy rail service. Looking at the frequency of the Manchester Metrolink system service to Altrincham and the very poor frequency of the Manchester to Chester heavy rail service, I would look towards the service frequency of the heavy rail service to address any comments of dissatisfaction.

 

[northwichcat]

But surely, having knowledge of this fact, you would make allowances to ensure that you had ample spare time to change from Manchester Metrolink at Altrincham Interchange to the heavy rail service. Looking at the frequency of the Manchester Metrolink system service to Altrincham and the very poor frequency of the Manchester to Chester heavy rail service, I would look towards the service frequency of the heavy rail service to address any comments of dissatisfaction.

MCRUA receives a lot of comments about the inability to make connections at Altrincham and the chairman put it to the test in the evening when the Metrolink frequency is every 12 minutes. He allowed 55 minutes to get between central Manchester and Altrincham (it should take 45 minutes maximum including a 12 minute wait for a tram) but he failed to reach Altrincham in time as the journey took 65 minutes!

 

[MarkyT]

Crewe isn't urban enough for a proper tram network.

Can't HS2 just use the current station?

Well I would say yes of course, and it could be upgraded and modernised to suit. The current plan is that the Manchester route, alongside the classic route, will dive into a tunnel near Basford and remain underground through the station area, emerging on the east side of the WCML to the north of the town ready to veer off towards Manchester. What strikes me is that any proposal to make HS2 calls out of the major junction station area could destroy possible interchange traffic, something that elsewhere has been specifically encouraged and designed for at the other major new HS2 hubs such as Totton and Meadowhall and which is already catered for at Crewe. There's planty of room on the south approaches to Crewe through the yards to provide a dedicated pair of tracks into the existing station area from a grade separated junction before the southern tunnel portal. Dedicated platforms at Crewe could be allocated capable of taking full length twin coupled classic compatible sets that could split and join at Crewe providing HS service north to Runcorn and Liverpool along one branch, and Warrington, Wigan, Preston and Blackpool along the other. Some of the existing and abandoned platforms at Crewe are already up to 400m long. This split portion working could provide half hourly service to Liverpool, with the alternate portion branching off somewhere else in the North West given suitable electrification, spreading the benefit of HS2 further whilst retaining the excellent connections at Crewe to other routes. It would be fairly easy to make the link into Crewe from the south 'captive compatible' for terminating trains only as well, but a full junction back onto the High speed line at the north end would be expensive and unjustified, given that Manchester trains would be unlikely to stop at Crewe as well as any proposed station near Manchester airport. That's no reason to place the HS2 station 2 miles out of Crewe however which smacks of an attempt to leverage some land development in that vicinity rather than any integrated transport objective for which the existing site is excellent. The railway yards could provide sufficient room for a new access road alongside the railway into the traditional station and town centre from the south of the town. That in itself could become a development spine without destroying the transport interchange. A transit link could follow the corridor to connect the station with developments to the south and possibly satellite parking if that became a problem in the immediate station surroundings.

 

[A0]

Daft idea - as someone else has said, probably a way of giving a mate some money who just happens to work for a transport "consultancy".....

To put it in context - population figures from Wikipedia:

Crewe 83650

Sheffield (which does have a tram network) 551,800
Edinburgh (which might have a tram by 2018) 482,640

And it goes without saying, Birmingham and Manchester are bigger.

Blackpool 142,100

Frankly the only places I can think of which have a tram system and are smaller than Crewe are places like Beer and Crich........

 

[northwichcat]

Daft idea - as someone else has said, probably a way of giving a mate some money who just happens to work for a transport "consultancy".....

To put it in context - population figures from Wikipedia:

Crewe 83650

Sheffield (which does have a tram network) 551,800
Edinburgh (which might have a tram by 2018) 482,640

And it goes without saying, Birmingham and Manchester are bigger.

Blackpool 142,100

Frankly the only places I can think of which have a tram system and are smaller than Crewe are places like Beer and Crich........

How big is Croydon in comparison?

And how big were places like Chester pre-World War II when they had trams?

 

[6Gman]

How big is Croydon in comparison?

And how big were places like Chester pre-World War II when they had trams?

But the Croydon trams run a long, long way out of Croydon - even to Wimbledon.

The CheshireEast LoonyTram runs from a field south of Crewe to a factory in North West Crewe with 2 intermediate stations - Crewe Station (old) and Morrison's.

 

[Amberley54]

How big is Croydon in comparison?

And how big were places like Chester pre-World War II when they had trams?

Comparing business case apples with pears as I wonder what the level of car ownership in Chester was pre-1939 compared to today?

If this scheme ever grows legs I'll go to the foot of our stairs. Mere smoke and mirrors to try and distract attention from ongoing saga of CECs ineptitude and incompetence.

However, it may put a few thou £s into the pockets of consultants that are cosy with the Coalition govt.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

But the Croydon trams run a long, long way out of Croydon - even to Wimbledon.

The Croydon Tramlink (or whatever it may be called now, having heard it described as the London Tramlink since TfL were financially involved) has a network of no less than 38 stops on a route mileage of 17 miles, with three line spurs to Addington, Beckenham Junction and Wimbledon. Its fleet is 24 "Flexity Swift" trams.

 

[northwichcat]

The CheshireEast LoonyTram runs from a field south of Crewe to a factory in North West Crewe with 2 intermediate stations - Crewe Station (old) and Morrison's.

Don't forget that if they want to close the current Crewe station there would be a long and lengthy legal process. Keeping it open in part as a light rail station may be more cost-effective in the short term then if the trams are well used the cost of conversion may be recovered.
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Crewe town council aren't too happy about the plans:

Clr Kevin Hickson, town council leader, said: “The proposals are ambitious and I welcome that ambition.

“Radical change is always difficult as it is unsettling but we need to have bold plans if we are going to have a healthy local economy.

“There are some concerns with the details of the scheme.

“The lack of consultation prior to going to the press was disappointing as the town council is the voice for Crewe.

“The town council calls on Cheshire East to divulge more information about why specific tram stops and bus routes were identified to see if they really do meet the transport needs of the town.

“I call on Clr Michael Jones to answer unambiguously the question, will the existing Crewe station continue to be used as a railway station where passengers can board trains direct to as many destinations as they do now?”

http://www.creweguardian.co.uk/news...utious__response_to_plans_for_trams_in_Crewe/

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Crewe town council aren't too happy about the plans:
http://www.creweguardian.co.uk/news...utious__response_to_plans_for_trams_in_Crewe/

So there is hope that realism will be the order of the day in the council chamber.

 

[6Gman]

So there is hope that realism will be the order of the day in the council chamber.

No.

Cheshire East holds all the cards.

Crewe Town Council is - legally - a Parish Council, with no planning or strategic functions and a tiny budget (by CEC standards).