Cherenkov radiation

[WatcherZero]

Surely, the water they're spraying on the reactors will end up radioactive. Where will this end up.

The sea, surprisingly its so radioactive already that they are considering extracting uranium from filtering seawater rather than mining for next generation reactors.

Storage pool for spent rods at reactor No. 4 has boiled dry and is giving off heavy radiation, workers are unable to approach reactors 3 and 4 because of the radiation, 180 workers are being rotated in each day in shifts to minimise exposure and official safety levels have been raised so workers can spend longer on site before being pulled out again. Fires and small explosions keep occuring, helicopters are dropping water from above when they can but often they cannot approach due to radiation levels. A riot vehicle has been brought in with the hope its water cannon has a long enough reach to refill the pools and spray the reactors while workers keep their distance. Their considering knocking down the remaining building walls so they can more easily spray water on the reactors. A fire broke out in reactor No 4. control room and staff can no longer use it. Sattelite imagery shows the reactors are all far more damaged than thought and a predator drone has been tasked with peering in to the buildings from above so they can see whats going on inside. It looks like several of the reactors have had at least partial meltdown and france yesterday petitioned for the ermegency to be raised to a category 6. In a US congressional hearing today officials said they believed the incident had surpassed three mile Island in severity and radiation release.

The US government has criticised the Japanese government for providing insufficent or misleading information after yesterday praising their response and saying they would have done exactly the same (Obama administration is becoming a by word for Schizophrenia). Many embassies are evacuating staff and families from Japan but the general public are almost completley unwaware of the problem being told the radiation leak was weaker than an X-ray. Meanwhile those forced from their homes in the evacuation cordon or in the 'Stay inside your homes' cordon are complaining they have no supplies of food and water, are recieving no information from government (A mayor within the cordon saying this, he learned of the explosion from foreign news) and that they have been forgotten by their government.

 

[strange6]

Why does the IAEA recognise that it could be Cherenkov radiation then?

Source of information? I doubt they would be so technically specific in public statements. Chernekov radiation is a very technical phenomenon and is only really applicable to nuclear scientists. The public wouldn't have a clue what it is.
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The sea, surprisingly its so radioactive already that they are considering extracting uranium from filtering seawater rather than mining for next generation reactors.

hahaha And I would love to see the source of this information!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The sea, surprisingly its so radioactive already that they are considering extracting uranium from filtering seawater rather than mining for next generation reactors.

If the containment vessels are intact, the water will not end up radioactive
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The sea, surprisingly its so radioactive already that they are considering extracting uranium from filtering seawater rather than mining for next generation reactors.

Storage pool for spent rods at reactor No. 4 has boiled dry and is giving off heavy radiation, workers are unable to approach reactors 3 and 4 because of the radiation, 180 workers are being rotated in each day in shifts to minimise exposure and official safety levels have been raised so workers can spend longer on site before being pulled out again. Fires and small explosions keep occuring, helicopters are dropping water from above when they can but often they cannot approach due to radiation levels. A riot vehicle has been brought in with the hope its water cannon has a long enough reach to refill the pools and spray the reactors while workers keep their distance. Their considering knocking down the remaining building walls so they can more easily spray water on the reactors. A fire broke out in reactor No 4. control room and staff can no longer use it. Sattelite imagery shows the reactors are all far more damaged than thought and a predator drone has been tasked with peering in to the buildings from above so they can see whats going on inside. It looks like several of the reactors have had at least partial meltdown and france yesterday petitioned for the ermegency to be raised to a category 6. In a US congressional hearing today officials said they believed the incident had surpassed three mile Island in severity and radiation release.

The US government has criticised the Japanese government for providing insufficent or misleading information after yesterday praising their response and saying they would have done exactly the same (Obama administration is becoming a by word for Schizophrenia). Many embassies are evacuating staff and families from Japan but the general public are almost completley unwaware of the problem being told the radiation leak was weaker than an X-ray. Meanwhile those forced from their homes in the evacuation cordon or in the 'Stay inside your homes' cordon are complaining they have no supplies of food and water, are recieving no information from government (A mayor within the cordon saying this, he learned of the explosion from foreign news) and that they have been forgotten by their government.

The fact that they are using water canon and helicopters with sprays buckets indicates that they are getting desperate

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Source of information? I doubt they would be so technically specific in public statements. Chernekov radiation is a very technical phenomenon and is only really applicable to nuclear scientists. The public wouldn't have a clue what it is.

Not a public statement - the accident report.
http://www-pub.iaea.org/MTCD/publications/PDF/Pub815_web.pdf
Page 30.

Subsequently, the phenomenon of the blue glow was observed by individuals from ORNL and the United States Department of Energy's Radiation Emergency Assistance Center/Training Site (REAC/TS) at Oak Ridge, USA, during the disen- capsulation of a caesium-137 chloride source in early 1988. This glow is thought to be associated with fluorescence or Cerenkov radiation due to the absorption of moisture by the source. Further study is in progress in Oak Ridge to determine the nature of this blue glow.

 

[WatcherZero]

British government now advising people to 'consider' leaving Tokyo and Fukushima areas after earlier today emailing british citizens in Japan advising people there was no risk or reason to leave.

 

[strange6]

Not a public statement - the accident report.
http://www-pub.iaea.org/MTCD/publications/PDF/Pub815_web.pdf
Page 30.

Exactly! They don't say it's down to Cherenkov radiation alone. It will be down to flouresence due to the info I have already provided. Please feel free to send an email to a nuclear scientist with what I have said and they'll confim the technical accuracies of it

http://www.liv.ac.uk/info/portal/pl...lipproc=dir&p_params=?p_dept=PP&p_template=pp

That's a good link!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Exactly! They don't say it's down to Cherenkov radiation alone. It will be down to flouresence due to the info I have already provided. Please feel free to send an email to a nuclear scientist with what I have said and they'll confim the technical accuracies of it

http://www.liv.ac.uk/info/portal/pl...lipproc=dir&p_params=?p_dept=PP&p_template=pp

That's a good link!

Yes - hence why I said the report indicated it could be fluorescence, but also said it could be Cherenkov radiation.

 

[strange6]

Yes - hence why I said the report indicated it could be fluorescence, but also said it could be Cherenkov radiation.

Could be but the probability of it being down to Cherenkov radiation is very, very small. In fact, I would say it was impossible but try emailing one of those nuclear people and they'll put you right! (Unless what they were observing was in water)

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Could be but the probability of it being down to Cherenkov radiation is very, very small. In fact, I would say it was impossible but try emailing one of those nuclear people and they'll put you right! (Unless what they were observing was in water)

I'm not questioning the science, just the report. If the probability was so low (impossible according to you) then why did the IAEA feel it necessary to mention it?

 

[strange6]

I'm not questioning the science, just the report. If the probability was so low (impossible according to you) then why did the IAEA feel it necessary to mention it?

Ask them I(I'm not a nuclear scientist) but according to the physics, i'm right. I'm emailing Dr Helen Boston and I'll let you know what she says. I love you Ralph, but you're still an arguementitive little *****!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Ask them I(I'm not a nuclear scientist) but according to the physics, i'm right. I'm emailing Dr Helen Boston and I'll let you know what she says. I love you Ralph, but you're still an arguementitive little *****!

This isn't me being argumentative This is me genuinely questioning something.

 

[strange6]

This isn't me being argumentative This is me genuinely questioning something.

I've just emailed her, mate. I'll forward on to you her response! But I really do believe the blue glow of a source in air is not Chernekov radiation

 

[Pumbaa]

Ask them I(I'm not a nuclear scientist) but according to the physics, i'm right. I'm emailing Dr Helen Boston and I'll let you know what she says. I love you Ralph, but you're still an arguementitive little *****!

Pfft - it's John and Jim, that's we're you want to be at!

Thoroughly interesting talk by the way. Only things I can add are the only way I deal with isotopes is dating them infrequently (I hate the buggers) and we'll be getting revised readings of scale on the earthquake. Magnitude is yesterday's nomenclature - it's only used in the media in particular and on public facing informations sites like the public BGS because that's whats everyones used to!

 

[strange6]

Pfft - it's John and Jim, that's we're you want to be at!

Thoroughly interesting talk by the way. Only things I can add are the only way I deal with isotopes is dating them infrequently (I hate the buggers) and we'll be getting revised readings of scale on the earthquake. Magnitude is yesterday's nomenclature - it's only used in the media in particular and on public facing informations sites like the public BGS because that's whats everyones used to!

Radiation and radioactive processes are fascinating topics. I don't think there is any other phenomenon that is as strange and as mysterious as the behaviour of a radioactive nucleus.

 

[Pumbaa]

Radiation and radioactive processes are fascinating topics. I don't think there is any other phenomenon that is as strange and as mysterious as the behaviour of a radioactive nucleus.

I think Science as a whole broad brush is the most fascinating thing. I'd argue that the way the planets interior dynamics is just as fascinating, maybe even more. That's why I work in that field now

 

[strange6]

Oh dear. I think Japan are now in a heap of big trouble

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Japan+just+hours+avoid+another+Chernobyl/4451464/story.html

 

[Hydro]

It is not looking good. Going from what was released to the press over the last couple of days, it sounded as if the situation could be contained and risk minimised. Now that the little things like "a cooling pond has boiled dry and the fuel is exposed" are coming out, it's starting to look really bad.

 

[Barn]

I'm not questioning the science, just the report. If the probability was so low (impossible according to you) then why did the IAEA feel it necessary to mention it?

If it was Cherenkov, it would probably be because the container in question had taken on moisture and the radiation was passing through droplets of water. I agree with strange6 that Cherenkov radiation cannot exist in the medium of air - nothing would throw out energetic enough particles.

 

[WatcherZero]

US and Canada are calling for an 80km evacuation zone around the plant while many countries have started laying on repatriation flights. France is warning that the Japanese government has 48 hours to prevent a Chernobyl. Reactor No. 5 has now started destabalising. Four helicopter water drops were carried out before being abandoned as the water was just not going into the buildings. A new connection to the national power grid has been laid and is almost ready to be turned on however the question remains how many of the water pumps are still workable after the report that one of the reactor explosions destroyed several and all the fires.

 

[Barn]

The sight of those helicopters frightened me. Even if they dropped on target, I'd have thought it would just be like pouring a teacup of cold water into a constantly boiling kettle.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

The sight of those helicopters frightened me. Even if they dropped on target, I'd have thought it would just be like pouring a teacup of cold water into a constantly boiling kettle.

And put that with Tepco's statement yesterday about re-criticality makes it very worrying.

 

[Barn]

And put that with Tepco's statement yesterday about re-criticality makes it very worrying.

Indeed. I still don't think it'll be a Chernobyl, because the main feature there was the explosion throwing radioactive material into the winds. But unfortunately we may not be able to avoid that part of Japan staying as an exclusion zone for some time.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

It may not be another Chernobyl but the possibility of the reaction starting in an uprotected area is worrying. I wonder how big the exclusion zone would have to be.

 

[LexyBoy]

The sight of those helicopters frightened me. Even if they dropped on target, I'd have thought it would just be like pouring a teacup of cold water into a constantly boiling kettle.

Let's hope that if there is a meltdown the reactor will fail as planned - and hasn't been damaged by the earthquake too much. After all, surely the plant was designed to withstand (or at least fail safe) in such an earthquake - such an event being quite likely during the operational lifetime of the plant.

If they can continue supplying water fast enough, what happens next - would they need to continue dousing the reactors until they use up their fuel? In which case it would surely be months at least, if not years...

 

[WatcherZero]

The storage pools at reactors 5 and 6 are now overheating, you were right with the speculation the storage racks had been retrofitted from their original design to add another tier and store more rods. The attempt to use riot vehicles water cannon has been abandoned as the radiation is too high for the vehicles to get close. Their talking about knocking holes in reactors 5 and 6 buildings to prevent the hydrogen explosions that hit reactors 1-4.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I guess using something like liquid nitrogen is out?

 

[ChrisCooper]

Depends on how it was used. At Chenobyl they bored holes into the ground and used liquid nitrogen to freeze the ground in the hope of preventing a total meltdown, where the melted core would reach groundwater and cause a massive steam explosion. Hopefully in this case that's not a problem, as the containment should be designed to prevent that. Pouring liquid nitrogen onto the reactors would just make things worse. It would expand rapidly as it vaporised and cause an explosion, and the sudden cooling and heating would likely weaken structures leading to cracking.

 

[WatcherZero]

I did love the Japanese governments statement this morning, simply 'Three reactors are stable.' The implication of course that three are not!

 

[LexyBoy]

I guess using something like liquid nitrogen is out?

In addition to ChrisCooper's points, you would get less cooling per kilo of liquid nitrogen than you would with water, since the enthalpy of vaporisation is much lower than that of water. Slower too, since it forms an insulating layer of gas between the LN2 and the hot stuff.

Not to mention the lack of a handy seaful of liquid nitrogen

 

[scotsman]

I really don't know. The only isotopes with mass number 14 belong to Nitrogen and Carbon. Perhaps he can get back to us and tell! Maybe he knows full well and is trying to test us lol

If only studying Higher Chemistry this year, had no idea of the isotopes of Hydrogen - I was quoting a news channel that I assumed might have had the slightest of ideas on what was going on...

 

[LexyBoy]

Isotopes up to hydrogen-7 have been synthesised hock:. Not surprisingly, it has a half-life of considerably less than 5 minutes

Oh, and oxygen has a 14 nucleon isotope too.