Cheltenham Spa - Stratford line.

[james60059]

Sitting at Cheltenham Spa Station on Monday got me thinking (or speculation depending which way you want to look at it ).

Supposing the line reopened from Cheltenham to Stratford Upon Avon, what sort of services would you have?.

I was thinking maybe have the London Paddington - Cheltenham Spa services extended to Stratford Upon Avon, whilst maybe West Midlands Railway could extend their services from Stratford Upon Avon (ex-Kidderminster) to Cheltenham Spa. Local stops at Long Marston - Broadway - Toddington - Winchcombe - Bishops Cleeve - Cheltenham Racecourse and finally Cheltenham Spa.

As for Honeybourne, would a reversal be good into the current station?.

GWR services maybe call at Cheltenham Racecourse - Broadway - Stratford-Upon-Avon. I believe the tracks ran behind the current CNM station, and as such 2 new platforms could be constructed with a single-lead junction connecting to the mainline, obviously the car park would need relocating .

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Circular Birmingham-Stratford-Worcester-Birmingham (and vice versa).

 

[30907]

Paddington-Stratford via Gloucester doesn't seem particularly useful (except on race days).

I would think Stratford towards Bristol would be the natural choice, via Honeybourne unless you ran a separate shuttle.

BTW I recall a previous thread in which a new-build across open land from the NE-SW route to Racecourse station was suggested. The old GW terminus St James is now under a Waitrose or its car park.

 

[RT4038]

Paddington-Stratford via Gloucester doesn't seem particularly useful (except on race days).

I would think Stratford towards Bristol would be the natural choice, via Honeybourne unless you ran a separate shuttle.

BTW I recall a previous thread in which a new-build across open land from the NE-SW route to Racecourse station was suggested. The old GW terminus St James is now under a Waitrose or its car park.

This line didn't go into St James's station, which was a terminus facing towards the south. It joined the the current Birmingham-Bristol line just south of the Lansdown Station, having used Malvern Road Station.

 

[Bald Rick]

There is a thread somewhere on this, and particularly the impracticality of building the railway south out of Stratford.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

There's a 2012 Arup study which reckons the route out of Stratford is doable - see https://www.stratford.gov.uk/doc/20...neybourne Railway Reinstatement Sept 2012.pdf (search in particular for "Seven Meadows Road").

 

[The Planner]

Doable does not equal affordable though.

 

[Bald Rick]

No doubt a compliant alignment can be found, even if it does mean a 1:40 rising gradient immediately on approach to a station.

That doesn’t make it ‘doable’ in any sense. Digging an 8 metre deep trench below the water table across an area with maximum risk of flooding might be an issue. Building the thing without annoying several hundred very adjacent neighbours might be another.

 

[adrock1976]

Paddington-Stratford via Gloucester doesn't seem particularly useful (except on race days).

I would think Stratford towards Bristol would be the natural choice, via Honeybourne unless you ran a separate shuttle.

BTW I recall a previous thread in which a new-build across open land from the NE-SW route to Racecourse station was suggested. The old GW terminus St James is now under a Waitrose or its car park.

Could you clarify which Racecourse station you are referring to, as both Cheltenham and Stratford upon Avon had "Racecourse" stations?

 

[ABB125]

Could you clarify which Racecourse station you are referring to, as both Cheltenham and Stratford upon Avon had "Racecourse" stations?

I'm guessing Cheltenham, considering that its racecourse station has been rebuilt.
Though having said that, Stratford racecourse also appears to be on the line to Honeybourne thence Cheltenham, so it could be reopened too...

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Hasn't a local group been banging on about re-opening between Honeybourne and Stratford (via Long Marston) for some time now, unsure how realistic their plans are?

 

[30907]

This line didn't go into St James's station, which was a terminus facing towards the south. It joined the the current Birmingham-Bristol line just south of the Lansdown Station, having used Malvern Road Station.

but it passed very close to St James's.

Could you clarify which Racecourse station you are referring to, as both Cheltenham and Stratford upon Avon had "Racecourse" stations?

Apologies, I had forgotten that Stratford once had a Racecourse station.
Though a connection from there to the NE/SW would be an impressive way of resolving the issues in Cheltenham .

 

[Nova1]

Hasn't a local group been banging on about re-opening between Honeybourne and Stratford (via Long Marston) for some time now, unsure how realistic their plans are?

Yes - Stratford to Honeybourne - Shakespeare Line Promotion Group

They've got a dedicated site to trying to reopen the line as well SWO - Stratford - Worcester - Oxford


Local MP (Nadhim Zahawi) supported the idea also.


And a couple months ago Stratford District Council appears to have slightly change their stance (the headline is a little misleading) Stratford District Council supports Honeybourne rail study (stratford-herald.com)

I doubt it will ever happen. There's been a lot of houses built where the line would need to go. This guy has a good write about what the new line could offer Beeching Reversal – Reopening Stratford-upon-Avon And Honeybourne-Worcester/Oxford (SWO) Railway Line

The guy who wrote that pointed out that a Nuneaton/Leamington/Coventry -> Stratford/Honeybourne could be interesting. I'd love to see this anyway, trying to get to Coventry/Kenilworth/Leamington from Stratford is annoying - for Coventry you usually need to go to Birmingham then change, and the nuneaton - leamington shuttles don't line up well with any of the chiltern trains from stratford -> leamington

I seem to remember the most attention this line has ever really got was when there was a landslip on the chiltern main line a few years ago between Banbury and Leamington Spa, and there was the point that if the honeybourne line existed, Chiltern services could have diverted Hatton Jn -> Bearley -> North Warwickshire Line

 

[The Planner]

The guy who wrote that pointed out that a Nuneaton/Leamington/Coventry -> Stratford/Honeybourne could be interesting. I'd love to see this anyway, trying to get to Coventry/Kenilworth/Leamington from Stratford is annoying - for Coventry you usually need to go to Birmingham then change, and the nuneaton - leamington shuttles don't line up well with any of the chiltern trains from stratford -> leamington

I seem to remember the most attention this line has ever really got was when there was a landslip on the chiltern main line a few years ago between Banbury and Leamington Spa, and there was the point that if the honeybourne line existed, Chiltern services could have diverted Hatton Jn -> Bearley -> North Warwickshire Line

The first issue is just timetable related and could be fixed if the will is there. The second sums up a lot of the issues and hopes of reopenings, it would have been useful for a one off large event, its the day to day where it has to work.

 

[Bald Rick]

If it happens, and it’s a big if, it will terminate in the south of Stratford by the racecourse, and won’t link up.

 

[Nova1]

If it happens, and it’s a big if, it will terminate in the south of Stratford by the racecourse, and won’t link up.

If it wasn't extended to the main Stratford-Upon-Avon station I can't see the point of building it at all. The racecourse is a little far from the town to be useful unless you're driving to the station.

 

[ABB125]

If it wasn't extended to the main Stratford-Upon-Avon station I can't see the point of building it at all. The racecourse is a little far from the town to be useful unless you're driving to the station.

Well there's always the tram-train/Welsh Highland Railway approach...
A497

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

 

[Bald Rick]

If it wasn't extended to the main Stratford-Upon-Avon station I can't see the point of building it at all. The racecourse is a little far from the town to be useful unless you're driving to the station.

I agree that a link would be desirable.

However, to build the section along (under) Seven Meadows Road is a very significant undertaking, if it is even possible given the local conditions. I don’t exaggerate when I say it would not be dissimilar to the works at Werrington; shorter perhaps, and built differently, but in the middle of a residential area rather than open land. Even if it’s half the cost of Warrington it will be well over £100m just for that part. For about the same money you could electrify to Snow Hill.

 

[Nova1]

I agree that a link would be desirable.

However, to build the section along (under) Seven Meadows Road is a very significant undertaking, if it is even possible given the local conditions. I don’t exaggerate when I say it would not be dissimilar to the works at Werrington; shorter perhaps, and built differently, but in the middle of a residential area rather than open land. Even if it’s half the cost of Warrington it will be well over £100m just for that part. For about the same money you could electrify to Snow Hill.

Oh I don't disagree, that roundabout and residential area no matter how you look at it is a pain in the ass for this theoretical project. Would require significant realignment of that roundabout - and would introduce a lot of traffic onto smaller roads. Maybe would require a new bridge across the river.

 

[ABB125]

Oh I don't disagree, that roundabout and residential area no matter how you look at it is a pain in the ass for this theoretical project. Would require significant realignment of that roundabout - and would introduce a lot of traffic onto smaller roads. Maybe would require a new bridge across the river.

I don't think a new bridge over the river would be needed, especially given the... interesting roundabout geometry you can get away with these days

 

[adrock1976]

Is there no space whatsoever to have a short single track section between Stratford Racecourse and the town station?

 

[Nova1]

Is there no space whatsoever to have a short single track section between Stratford Racecourse and the town station?

Not really. It's pretty tight.

 

[adrock1976]

Not really. It's pretty tight.View attachment 100030 View attachment 100029

Many thanks for that.

That would seem to throw a spanner in Warwickshire County Council's plans for a Leamington Spa - Worcester via Honeybourne service, as what they had stated in a transport report a while ago (it was done when HS2 was announced, as it does not call at or serve Leamington, Rugby, Coventry, or Warwick. It also mentioned that they would be opposed to any reductions in frequency of the London trains calling at Coventry and Rugby).

 

[The Planner]

Many thanks for that.

That would seem to throw a spanner in Warwickshire County Council's plans for a Leamington Spa - Worcester via Honeybourne service, as what they had stated in a transport report a while ago (it was done when HS2 was announced, as it does not call at or serve Leamington, Rugby, Coventry, or Warwick. It also mentioned that they would be opposed to any reductions in frequency of the London trains calling at Coventry and Rugby).

They may be opposed to it, doesn't mean they will get their way though.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Quite apart from the practicality issue, there is also the matter of passenger demand between Stratford-upon-Avon and Honeybourne. I remember reading Stan Hall's memoirs - well worth reading too incidentally - and he mentions this line, saying it had about 20 trains a day and was quite busy. I was astonished when I read that because I'd have thought 20 tpd constituted a very lightly used railway. So my question is why is it believed this route merits being re-opened?

 

[Bald Rick]

So my question is why is it believed this route merits being re-opened?

Well, that’s always the first question to ask.

 

[The Planner]

20tpd is effectively 1tph in each direction. Would the reopening expect more than that anyway? Going to need the other side of the triangle unless people are content with reversing at Honeybourne with the time penalty involved from Moreton in Marsh. Signalling costs will make this expensive, one would hope that the Evesham resignalling left room on the interlocking!

 

[Nova1]

20tpd is effectively 1tph in each direction. Would the reopening expect more than that anyway? Going to need the other side of the triangle unless people are content with reversing at Honeybourne with the time penalty involved from Moreton in Marsh. Signalling costs will make this expensive, one would hope that the Evesham resignalling left room on the interlocking!

Currently Stratford-Upon-Avon to Birmingham Moor Street is 2tph (one via Whitlocks End and Henley-In-Arden, one via Solihull and Dorridge), with Chiltern services being roughly 0.5tph to Hatton/Warwick/Leamington/Banbury (no services in the current timetable run to London Marylebone except one early morning service)

So I think 1tph would be a good amount to be expected on the line.

 

[Bald Rick]

So I think 1tph would be a good amount to be expected on the line.

And as we know, there is rarely a case for a brand new line that carries just 1tph.

 

[ABB125]

So I think 1tph would be a good amount to be expected on the line.

Definitely 1tph Birmingham-Stratford-Honeybourne-Worcester.

Possibly 1tph London-Oxford-Moreton-Stratford? Or maybe 0.5tph, with the other 0.5tph going to Worcester (though this would almost certainly require full redoubling between Evesham and Norton Jn, beyond that envisaged by the recent(ish) Cotswold Line Task Force report, to cope with 2.5tph).