Cheaper Anytime Return valid on Gatwick Express

[talldave]

If I have to be in London early on a weekday, I have to use a peak Anytime Return ticket for the journey between Gatwick and Victoria. Being able to use the Gatwick Express can be an advantage though, in terms of the frequency of services. But how to avoid paying silly prices for the privilege?

Gatwick Express Anytime Returns are £34.90, or £31.05 booking online.

A "Southern Trains only" Anytime Return is £21.40.

However, buy a ticket through London to somewhere like Finsbury Park or Harringay, and the Anytime Return price is £23.60. The "Not Gatwick Express" restriction does not apply and you can use all services including Gatwick Express.

So it's a small £2.20 premium for upgrading from "Southern Trains only" to any operator.

You can break your journey on such a ticket so you can either bin the ticket when you get to Victoria, or it'll let you take a journey on the Victoria line (north or south!) - effectively making it cheaper than the "Southern Trains only" ticket.

Similarly, on the return journey you can start on the Victoria line or just at Victoria mainline.

The only downside is it's a paper ticket, as QR codes are not available.

 

[LexyBoy]

Uh oh...

© Gatwick Express is operated by Southern

You are correct that the £2.20 extra for a ticket to e.g. Finsbury Park allows travel on services between Gatwick and London which are not operated by Southern, i.e. FCC. The prices you have quoted are for Anytime Day Returns however, not Anytime Returns.

 

[yorkie]

If I have to be in London early on a weekday, I have to use a peak Anytime Return ticket for the journey between Gatwick and Victoria. Being able to use the Gatwick Express can be an advantage though, in terms of the frequency of services. But how to avoid paying silly prices for the privilege?

Gatwick Express Anytime Returns are £34.90, or £31.05 booking online.

That's an "Any Permitted" fare (see http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=GTW&dest=VIC&rlc=%20%20%20&rte=0&ldn=0&tkt=SOR ) it is an Anytime Return priced by Southern and valid on any operator.

However, buy a ticket though London to somewhere like Finsbury Park or Harringay, and the Anytime Return price is £23.60. The "Not Gatwick Express" restriction does not apply and you can use all services including Gatwick Express.

That's actually an Anytime Day Return (SDR) not an Anytime Return (SOR). The route is "Any Permitted".

So it's a small £2.20 premium for upgrading from "Southern Trains only" to any operator.

True, but you are comparing a ticket valid to return within one month but a ticket valid to return within one day.

As for what "Southern Trains only" means, I am of the firm believe that it applies to trains operated by Southern, under NRCoC Condition 10. Not everyone agrees and some people believe that it applies to trains branded Southern. Gatwick Express is a brand, not a Train Company, and this is a matter that causes huge debate each time it crops up, and we will never get universal consensus on that issue.

 

[talldave]

Apologies for getting the ticket names confused, however, Southern have crazy naming conventions. You cannot buy an Anytime Day Return from Gatwick for the Gatwick express!!

However, for someone like me who wants to make a peak-time return journey starting at Gatwick, the Gatwick Express Anytime Return is the only option. So the cost comparisons are the same, even if the ticket validities vary.

I've raised the issue of illogical naming conventions with Southern in the past but they don't care. Back in 2011 they had a special offer ticket that their website would not allow you to purchase. It took them 5 months to fix it despite me telling them what the error was. I got so bored waiting I built a local copy of their website on my home PC with the error fixed so that I could launch into the southern ticket site with the correct parameters!!

 

[bb21]

Apologies for getting the ticket names confused, however, Southern have carzy naming conventions. You cannot buy and Anytime Day Return from Gatwick for the Gatwick express!!

This isn't an issue with naming convention. There is no Route Any Permitted Anytime Day Return between Gatwick Airport and London. The fare doesn't exist. Maybe Southern saw no need to introduce such a fare.

However, for someone like me who wants to make a peak-time return journey starting at Gatwick, the Gatwick Express Anytime Return is the only option. So the cost comparisons are the same, even if the ticket validities vary.

You are correct for people doing day returns.

I've raised the issue of illogical naming conventions with Southern in the past but they don't care.

The tickets were named correctly so there is nothing to fix.

 

[tannedfrog]

Whereas the Stansted Express website sees fit to name tickets as follows:

Express Class Open Single
Express Class Open Return

and states the following:
Single tickets are valid for one journey on the day the ticket is collected from the ticket machine.

 

[talldave]

This isn't an issue with naming convention. There is no Route Any Permitted Anytime Day Return between Gatwick Airport and London. The fare doesn't exist. Maybe Southern saw no need to introduce such a fare.

True, but their naming conventions are crazy. For First Class, their First Class Off-Peak Day Return can be used at peak time for travel from Victoria. I argued that it should be called a First Class Anytime Day Return, so that the ticket names are aligned between First and Standard Class. Southern don't think that's at all confusing!!

 

[bb21]

True, but their naming conventions are crazy. For First Class, their First Class Off-Peak Day Return can be used at peak time for travel from Victoria. I argued that it should be called a First Class Anytime Day Return, so that the ticket names are aligned between First and Standard Class. Southern don't think that's at all confusing!!

That's not Southern's fault though. This is a wide-spread phenomenon across the industry, and the blame firmly lies with the government with the so-called "simplication" which now meant that completely different products with widely-differing restrictions are now called by the same name.

 

[talldave]

That's not Southern's fault though. This is a wide-spread phenomenon across the industry, and the blame firmly lies with the government with the so-called "simplication" which now meant that completely different products with widely-differing restrictions are now called by the same name.

Disagree. Southern decided to have two names for Standard class tickets (Anytime Day Return for a Victoria start and Off-Peak Day Return for a Gatwick start) and one name for First Class tickets (First Class Off-Peak Day Return for either direction).

So they've created a ticket with Off-Peak in the name that's not restricted to off-peak travel only. That's just plain stupid and is wholly within Southern's power to change.

 

[yorkie]

So they've created a ticket with Off-Peak in the name that's not restricted to off-peak travel only. That's just plain stupid and is wholly within Southern's power to change.

The First Off Peak Day and also the Standard Off Peak Day, for this particular flow (London - Gatwick), as with most flows, have a morning restriction but are valid on any train in the evening.

The vast majority of Off Peak (Day) tickets are unrestricted in the evening. There are, of course, many exceptions to this - but mostly applicable to the 'InterCity'-type Train Companies.

 

[talldave]

The First Off Peak Day and also the Standard Off Peak Day, for this particular flow (London - Gatwick), as with most flows, have a morning restriction but are valid on any train in the evening.

The vast majority of Off Peak (Day) tickets are unrestricted in the evening. There are, of course, many exceptions to this - but mostly applicable to the 'InterCity'-type Train Companies.

The First Class Off-Peak Day Return is valid on any train weekdays from Victoria to Gatwick. In my book, that's a ticket valid for peak time travel which they're decided to call "off-peak". That's why I describe it as crazy.

For Standard Class they use different ticket names depending on which direction you start your journey in, for First Class they don't.

 

[bb21]

The First Class Off-Peak Day Return is valid on any train weekdays from Victoria to Gatwick. In my book, that's a ticket valid for peak time travel which they're decided to call "off-peak". That's why I describe it as crazy.

For Standard Class they use different ticket names depending on which direction you start your journey in, for First Class they don't.

I see. Basically they made the same ticket available for sale in both directions, which explains why it is called "Off-Peak", as there is a time restriction attached for journeys originating from Gatwick.

Maybe email Southern with your suggestion to create a different fare for the opposite direction.

 

[LexyBoy]

Maybe email Southern with your suggestion to create a different fare for the opposite direction.

Or they could just add restrictions for journeys originating in London?

 

[30907]

Just a thought - are there flows which have Anytime Day Return AND Anytime Return on them? I'd always assumed that, like the old Ordinary OS/OR fares, you either had one or the other, depending on whether it was a "one day only" area.

I expect someone will prove me wrong within 10 minutes...

 

[Lrd]

Just a thought - are there flows which have Anytime Day Return AND Anytime Return on them? I'd always assumed that, like the old Ordinary OS/OR fares, you either had one or the other, depending on whether it was a "one day only" area.

I expect someone will prove me wrong within 10 minutes...

Loads, Southampton - London for example. 70p difference though.

http://www.brfares.com/#fares?orig=SOU&dest=WAT&rlc=

 

[island]

Just a thought - are there flows which have Anytime Day Return AND Anytime Return on them? I'd always assumed that, like the old Ordinary OS/OR fares, you either had one or the other, depending on whether it was a "one day only" area.

I expect someone will prove me wrong within 10 minutes...

Plenty in Northern land, such as Bamford to Church Fenton.

7 minutes
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
To the original point, referring to this as "naming conventions" exhibits a basic misunderstanding. An anytime day return is valid for one day, and an anytime return is valid for five days outbound and one month to come back. The two are completely different products. I accept that sometimes one must purchase an anytime return and use both legs on the same day, but that is by the by.

 

[RJ]

Just a thought - are there flows which have Anytime Day Return AND Anytime Return on them? I'd always assumed that, like the old Ordinary OS/OR fares, you either had one or the other, depending on whether it was a "one day only" area.

I expect someone will prove me wrong within 10 minutes...

Try Bishops Stortford to Peterborough routed Not Via London - the passenger is spoilt for choice.

Standard Anytime Single
Standard Anytime Day Single

Standard Anytime Day Return
Standard Anytime Return
Standard Off Peak Day Return
Standard Off Peak Return

First Anytime Day Single
First Anytime Single

First Anytime Day Return
First Anytime Return.

 

[talldave]

I see. Basically they made the same ticket available for sale in both directions, which explains why it is called "Off-Peak", as there is a time restriction attached for journeys originating from Gatwick.

Maybe email Southern with your suggestion to create a different fare for the opposite direction.

I did, but they don't care. They don't see it as illogical in any way at all. Just as they don't think it's a bit quirky that on the fares page of their website First Class tickets have a "First Class..." prefix, whilst on the booking & purchasing pages the prefix switches to "1st Class...". Trivial, but potentionally confusing for non-native English speakers and something that would take 2 minutes to fix. But again, they don't care.

Am I surprised? No. This is the company that once despatched the Gatwick Express that I was travelling on from Gatwick in the knowledge that there was a power outage in the Redhill tunnel. Of course we ground to halt and froze in the darkness for over 2 hours whilst they sent a diesel loco to recover us. To add insult to injury, they towed us back to Gatwick, rather than on to the next section of live rail further north so that we could continue to London!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Plenty in Northern land, such as Bamford to Church Fenton.

7 minutes
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
To the original point, referring to this as "naming conventions" exhibits a basic misunderstanding. An anytime day return is valid for one day, and an anytime return is valid for five days outbound and one month to come back. The two are completely different products. I accept that sometimes one must purchase an anytime return and use both legs on the same day, but that is by the by.

My point about naming conventions was referring to the quirk of having different ticket names for different classes of the same ticket and for naming a ticket "Off Peak" when it's not restricted to off peak for southbound travel - as described in posts #9 and #11 above.

It's entirely within Southern's power to apply the same naming convention to Standard class and First class tickets, but they choose not to. Of course it's unlikely that a group of Southern managers sat down and actively decided to cause confusion but, having had this quirk pointed out to them, they respond with "oh yes, it is different isn't it..." and proceed to do nothing about it. Hence my conclusion that they are either incompetent or don't care - probably both.

 

[island]

[insert simple bricks]

 

[stut]

Try Bishops Stortford to Peterborough routed Not Via London - the passenger is spoilt for choice.

Standard Anytime Single
Standard Anytime Day Single

Standard Anytime Day Return
Standard Anytime Return
Standard Off Peak Day Return
Standard Off Peak Return

First Anytime Day Single
First Anytime Single

First Anytime Day Return
First Anytime Return.

Biggleswade to London is similarly ridiculous:

Standard Anytime Day Single
Standard Super Off-Peak Single

Standard Off-Peak Return
Standard Anytime Day Return
Standard Off-Peak Day Return
Standard Super Off-Peak Day Return

Standard Anytime Day Travelcard
Standard Off-Peak Day Travelcard
Standard Super Off-Peak Day Travelcard

First Anytime Day Single

First Anytime Day Return
First Off-Peak Day Return

First Anytime Day Travelcard

So, although there's no Anytime Return, there is an Off-Peak Return, as well as an Off-Peak Day Return (although if one of your journeys is on a Super Off-Peak day, it's cheaper to buy two singles than the Off-Peak Return). All the singles are Day tickets. To confuse matters further, the evening peak restrictions apply in different timeslots to Off-Peak and Off-Peak Day tickets. Super Off-Peak Day tickets are for weekends and bank holidays, plus some additional days in the school holidays - but the machine only sells them consistently at weekends. If the ticket office is shut, you have to buy another ticket and pay the difference, but there is nothing to tell you that.

While there's an Off-Peak Day Return for First Class, you can only get an Anytime Travelcard. Oh, and don't expect your Super Off-Peak Travelcards to work on other TOCs' barriers (except for the Tube) - you'll be going to the manned gate each time.

Rather more obscurely, you run into problems using the Off-Peak tickets on East Coast services via Stevenage on the 1608 (it sounds obscure, but you can break your journey there, and I often do if I want to pick up something from the megaTesco on the way home). East Coast will claim that your Off-Peak ticket isn't valid on their Peak train, and you have to try to politely argue that it's the ticket that carries the restrictions and not the train (EC Peak starts at 1600, FC at 1630). Oh, and don't even start getting involved in the argument about whether Super Off-Peak tickets from Biggleswade are valid on East Coast from Stevenage to London.

Oh, and London Terminals tickets are valid into Old Street and Moorgate as well. And on the Tube from King's Cross to these stations. But not any of the intermediate stations, even the National Rail ones (but you can break your journey on most tickets anywhere between Biggleswade and Finsbury Park). Although you might risk stepping off at Highbury and Islington to touch in to the Victoria Line opposite (you normally have to step off to let people off anyway), but that is verboten. Instead, you have to buy a different ticket to the specific destination that costs exactly the same.

And they wonder why people get confused as to which ticket to buy...

 

[MikeWh]

I disagree with the last bit.

You are allowed to alight at any intermediate national rail station on a London terminals ticket, including between Finsbury Park and Moorgate. You are also allowed to alight at Highbury & Islington when using the Victoria line.

 

[pkkelly]

Uh oh...



You are correct that the £2.20 extra for a ticket to e.g. Finsbury Park allows travel on services between Gatwick and London which are not operated by Southern, i.e. FCC. The prices you have quoted are for Anytime Day Returns however, not Anytime Returns.

Even better value is the £22.10 Anytime Day Return from Gatwick to Acton Main Line (first station out of Paddington).

Gatwick to Bethnal Green (first station out of Liverpool Street) is same price as to Finsbury Park.

Gatwick to Limehouse (first station out of Fenchurch Street) is £29.20.

Gatwick to Wembley Stadium (ie via Marylebone) is £27.20.

Booby prize goes to an Anytime Day Return from Gatwick to South Hampstead (first station out of Euston) is £35.90, ie £13.80 more than to the first station out of Paddington.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Just a thought - are there flows which have Anytime Day Return AND Anytime Return on them? I'd always assumed that, like the old Ordinary OS/OR fares, you either had one or the other, depending on whether it was a "one day only" area.

I expect someone will prove me wrong within 10 minutes...

Yes.

York - Leeds has:

SOR
SDR
SVR
CDR
FDR

and

CDS
SDS
FDS

And off topic, other silly comparisons:

Guide Bridge (4.75 miles and 5 stops beyond Manchester) to Liverpool is £11.60 CDR. Heaton Chapel (4.5 miles and 2 stops beyond Manchester) to Liverpool is £16.30 CDR.

 

[dvboy]

Back on topic, buy the Southern Only ticket and if the gateline try to sell you an excess or supplement, Southern will refund it if you phone/write to complain to them about the whole mess that is the branding/ticket validity. They may even refund you the original ticket.

 

[talldave]

I think I might try that next time I'm not in rush hour (stand up arguments are even worse with 200+ people behind you!).

If I have to do this on every trip (once or twice a week), I wonder if I could also invoice Southern for my time spent arguing at the barrier and reclaiming invalid excess fares?

As a newbie here, I'm most grateful for everyone pointing out that I'm trying to find workarounds to a problem that doesn't legally exist!

 

[RJ]

Biggleswade to London is similarly ridiculous:

Standard Anytime Day Single
Standard Super Off-Peak Single

Standard Off-Peak Return
Standard Anytime Day Return
Standard Off-Peak Day Return
Standard Super Off-Peak Day Return

Standard Anytime Day Travelcard
Standard Off-Peak Day Travelcard
Standard Super Off-Peak Day Travelcard

First Anytime Day Single

First Anytime Day Return
First Off-Peak Day Return

First Anytime Day Travelcard

So, although there's no Anytime Return, there is an Off-Peak Return, as well as an Off-Peak Day Return (although if one of your journeys is on a Super Off-Peak day, it's cheaper to buy two singles than the Off-Peak Return). All the singles are Day tickets. To confuse matters further, the evening peak restrictions apply in different timeslots to Off-Peak and Off-Peak Day tickets. Super Off-Peak Day tickets are for weekends and bank holidays, plus some additional days in the school holidays - but the machine only sells them consistently at weekends. If the ticket office is shut, you have to buy another ticket and pay the difference, but there is nothing to tell you that.

While there's an Off-Peak Day Return for First Class, you can only get an Anytime Travelcard. Oh, and don't expect your Super Off-Peak Travelcards to work on other TOCs' barriers (except for the Tube) - you'll be going to the manned gate each time.

Rather more obscurely, you run into problems using the Off-Peak tickets on East Coast services via Stevenage on the 1608 (it sounds obscure, but you can break your journey there, and I often do if I want to pick up something from the megaTesco on the way home). East Coast will claim that your Off-Peak ticket isn't valid on their Peak train, and you have to try to politely argue that it's the ticket that carries the restrictions and not the train (EC Peak starts at 1600, FC at 1630). Oh, and don't even start getting involved in the argument about whether Super Off-Peak tickets from Biggleswade are valid on East Coast from Stevenage to London.

Oh, and London Terminals tickets are valid into Old Street and Moorgate as well. And on the Tube from King's Cross to these stations. But not any of the intermediate stations, even the National Rail ones (but you can break your journey on most tickets anywhere between Biggleswade and Finsbury Park). Although you might risk stepping off at Highbury and Islington to touch in to the Victoria Line opposite (you normally have to step off to let people off anyway), but that is verboten. Instead, you have to buy a different ticket to the specific destination that costs exactly the same.

And they wonder why people get confused as to which ticket to buy...

The options looks perfectly standard to me.

The point I was making with the Bishop Stortford ticket was the bizarre availability of both Anytime and Anytime Day singles and returns for both classes. It's normally one or the other! Plus there are various pricing anomalies. The SDR is cheaper than the CDR, whilst the FOR is cheaper than the FDR.