Chasing steam behind the Iron Curtain.

[Arglwydd Golau]

Throughout “the Soviet bloc plus Yugo”, there strongly obtained the regrettable notion on the part of authority there, that railway enthusiasts with their cameras were probably spies working for unfriendly political entities: hence endless, maddening interference with / thwarting of the desired activity, by police and other representatives of officialdom – from what I’ve heard, rarely carried on in an outright-nasty way, but unspeakably frustrating. This nuisance – while never absent – tended to be less or more acute according to country, or region-of-country. This was not always along predictable lines: supposedly-liberal Yugoslavia, running its own show in defiance of the USSR, had definitely the worst and most pervasive case of anti-photter paranoia (perhaps understandably, according to its own scheme of things). p a big fuss over the “spying” nonsense.

My own experience of this 'paranoia' actually did occur in Yugoslavia, I wasn't aware until reading this thread that Yugoslavia had a reputation in this matter....and I wasn't even chasing steam! I was spending one summer whilst at University travelling around Yugoslavia in a Renault 4 van, not thinking about railways at all - my friends weren't interested and it was only steam anyway that held my interest, which had lessened since 1968.
To cut a long story short, we were driving along a road somewhere in what is now Bosnia and I spied a steam engine waiting to depart from what looked like a factory. Asking Neil to stop the van, I hopped out with my camera and made ready to take a photo with the driver waving a friendly greeting at me, rather furiously I remember thinking at the time. I still don't know whether he was warning me or not, as I then saw a soldier walk around the front of the engine in the process of taking a rifle off his back. Neil shouted at me to get in the van and off we sped, oddly enough, in our haste we managed to drive into some security compound a few miles down the road and then had to make a hasty exit from there also. Over a few beers that evening it was suggested that I desisted from taking photos of steam engines. That was, in fact was only incident we had in 6 weeks in the country.
I still have the photo somewhere, perhaps if I dig it out someone here might like to identify it for me?

 

[70014IronDuke]

My own experience of this 'paranoia' actually did occur in Yugoslavia, I wasn't aware until reading this thread that Yugoslavia had a reputation in this matter....and I wasn't even chasing steam!

I was spending one summer whilst at University travelling around Yugoslavia in a Renault 4 van, not thinking about railways at all - my friends weren't interested and it was only steam anyway that held my interest, which had lessened since 1968.
To cut a long story short, we were driving along a road somewhere in what is now Bosnia and I spied a steam engine waiting to depart from what looked like a factory. Asking Neil to stop the van, I hopped out with my camera and made ready to take a photo with the driver waving a friendly greeting at me, rather furiously I remember thinking at the time. I still don't know whether he was warning me or not, as I then saw a soldier walk around the front of the engine in the process of taking a rifle off his back. Neil shouted at me to get in the van and off we sped, oddly enough, in our haste we managed to drive into some security compound a few miles down the road and then had to make a hasty exit from there also. Over a few beers that evening it was suggested that I desisted from taking photos of steam engines. That was, in fact was only incident we had in 6 weeks in the country.
I still have the photo somewhere, perhaps if I dig it out someone here might like to identify it for me?

I'm a bit suprised the solider didn't open fire on your fleeing car. Seriously.

It was my experience too that Yugoslavia was, in fact, not liberal at all when it came to photting steam, and yes, I also had an encounter with security forces (workers' militia) in eastern Croatia and a very unnerving encounter in Bosnia with the police. In fact, although Yugoslavia defied Stalin c 1950 and was not in the Warsaw Pact - and it allowed it's people to come and go from the early 1950s - it had a repressive security apparatus and I would say it was, in some ways, more paranoic and dangerous for railway photography than some of the Soviet Satellites. (Slovenes assure me today when I tell of my detentions in Yugo times that such things wouldn't have happened in their republic - but I was only in the Maribor area for a day or so on my visit in 1973, and didn't really understand the Federal make-up in the day.)

ps "in what is now Bosnia" - it was then too, just part of the Fed Republic. Was it near Banja Luka by any chance?

 

[70014IronDuke]

Not my own story, nor one directly to do with trains - but one from a chappie who I met on the train from Zagreb (I think it was) to Munich on my way out of Yugo in the summer of 73.

Said chappie was Irish, living in London, aged about 20-22. (I met him and I think I stopped with him overnight once a year or so later – seemed a perfectly reliable type, so I don't doubt his story.) Anyway, he was wearing a kind of combat jacket, with red stars (or possibly the flag of Yugoslavia) on his shoulders, which was pretty intriguing. And so we got talking and he told me his tale.

Early in the year he'd seen an advert in some kind of studenty-Time Out-like magazine along the lines of: “Come to an international youth camp and help development in Yugoslavia! You'll be with friendly young volunteers from all over Europe! In the mornings, you'll be working in teams to build a better future for people still scarred by the wars earlier this century. In the afternoons and evenings, we have cultural and sporting activities with fun-loving people keen to build a peaceful future for all! There's no pay, but we'll provide good, honest Balkan food and accommodation that everyone enjoys. Make friends for life around the campfire in Yugoslavia for a week this summer! An unforgettable experience.”

Intrigued, my Irish companion wrote off - and signed up. IIRC, the camp was part of a project to construct a dam as part of a hydro-electric scheme.

So much for the PR. The reality started to hit him when he first arrived at the camp – which I guess was in one of the poorer republics – Bosnia-Hercegovina, Montenegro, Macedonia or Kosovo (the latter was not a republic, but some sort of autonomous region at the time).

Reconstructing his story from memory, it went like this: “When I got there, on the Sunday afternoon, it was like a prison camp you see in a WW2 film. OK, they didn't have machine guns in the towers, but it was surrounded by a fence, and there were watchtowers with guards. Accommodation was very, very basic. Work started at six, so you had to get up at five, wash in open troughs in the fields (cold water, of course) get some rough breakfast and then we formed up in squads for introductions and work.”

[My note here: Of course, in summer it was likely to get so hot that it makes an early start only sensible if you are going to be out labouring in the open.]

“We were to work until noon, with a break for coffee. ON the first day, everyone, including me, was so knackered that all you wanted to do after some lunch was sleep and recover some strength. In any case, I soon realised that “cultural activities” amounted to a game of football on a rough pitch with broken goalposts.”

“So ended day one. But on the Tuesday, I was determined to use the afternoon to visit the local town. Which was fine, except you couldn't just leave the camp when you felt like it. No, despite being unpaid volunteers, anyone who wanted to go out needed a pass, signed by Herr Kommandant. And to get that, you had to hand in your request at 08.00, during the break.”

“So, at 08.00, instead of joining the coffee queue, I went to the commander's office, filled in a form, and got a pass to leave that afternoon. And after lunch, I presented my pass to the guards and indeed, was let out to go to the town.”

“It was an interesting place. I enjoyed it, so the next day, once again at 08.00, I went to the commander's office for a pass to go out. But when I got there, and asked for permission, the commander looked at me astonished and said: 'But you went yesterday. Why do you want to go again?' I mean, we were volunteers, damn it, but they wanted to control us!”

Well, as I remember the tale, they did let him out, reluctantly. I forget the rest of the details, but although he was obviously not “the best student” on the course ideologically, they did award him the jacket with the red star emblem for hard work – something only a few chosen ones were allowed to wear, apparently. He was quite proud of that – I confess, I thought it was pretty cool too, but I don't think I wanted to spend a week of my valuable time sweating gallons under the sun building a dam in some God-forsaken part of Yugoslavia for the right to get one.


And if that was how they treated international volunteers - heaven help the local conscripts.

 

[StephenHunter]

The USA paid a pen manufacturer millions of US Dollars to devise a pen which their astronauts on the moon programme could use to write with when weightless in space.

The Soviets just took pencils

It's an urban legend; they both used the pen

Anyway, what were the border guards like? I know that the GDR passport control people were actually Stasi.

 

[Calthrop]

It was my experience too that Yugoslavia was, in fact, not liberal at all when it came to photting steam, and yes, I also had an encounter with security forces (workers' militia) in eastern Croatia and a very unnerving encounter in Bosnia with the police. In fact, although Yugoslavia defied Stalin c 1950 and was not in the Warsaw Pact - and it allowed it's people to come and go from the early 1950s - it had a repressive security apparatus and I would say it was, in some ways, more paranoic and dangerous for railway photography than some of the Soviet Satellites. (Slovenes assure me today when I tell of my detentions in Yugo times that such things wouldn't have happened in their republic - but I was only in the Maribor area for a day or so on my visit in 1973, and didn't really understand the Federal make-up in the day.)

From my – not enormous – first-hand experience, and from most of what I’ve heard and read: it does indeed seem that Yugoslavia was the most difficult and hostile place in Europe, for railway photographers – worse in that respect, than any of the actual Soviet satellites. Of those, Poland and (until “late in the day”) East Germany were generally found the most difficult: in the main, the other satellites were less so – though the independent photter could, and often did, get into trouble in all of them. (I don’t think I’ve ever heard what Bulgaria was like for someone working independently.) It was found -- even in Yugoslavia -- that things tended quite often (though not always) to be easier on the narrow gauge, which even the “guardians of security” had trouble taking seriously.

To the extent that any of this stuff made any kind of sense; Yugoslavia’s unique paranoia-level was perhaps understandable, in that those in charge there saw potential enemies not only in the Western countries, but in the USSR and its allies too. I have seen it suggested that Jugoslav hostility to photters – always pretty bad – went right through the roof at the time of the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968 (when the Yugoslavs were terrified that they “might well be next”), and stayed very acute more or less till the end of steam on public lines.

Hearing others’ accounts of people’s difficulties in Yugoslavia: I feel that I was pretty lucky on my two, relatively brief, visits there. Majority of that time spent in Serbia (which tended latish-on, to have the better and higher concentrations of steam): there were the expected photographic frustrations, but no highly unpleasant experiences with any local people, in Serbia or further west – those who denied us photography, or sought to, were basically polite about it. Our feeling in Serbia was rather, that most of the people just weren’t interested in us, and wished that we’d go away; a minority were pleasant and friendly. I have heard a fair number of accounts from various people, of quite ugly experiences in much of Yugoslavia-as-was – rail-photting-related, and more general stuff: what with that, and material in the bigger picture in recent decades, one is inclined to conclude that there seems to be a rather large number of decidedly “odd ducks” in that part of Europe.

As with you, I think – I don’t recall having ever heard anything bad about Slovenia: reckoned, one gathers, by the Slovenes and folk in general, as “quite like the rest of Yugoslavia, only civilised”. I seem to recall in one of Colin Garratt’s books, material about a local railway enthusiast whom he teamed up with in Slovenia, in the early or mid-1970s – if memory serves rightly, a Mr. Brate, doubtless with accents on various letters. This amiable chap was most happy to take Garratt on visits to local steam-worked branches, where they photographed without trouble. Again if I recall rightly: when Garratt ventured further east in Yugoslavia, things predictably went less smoothly for him.

Fascinating story from your acquaintance, about his construction-youth-camp doings. Certainly seems like one to file away as part of the “life-under-Communism-in-the-raw experience” – complete with flowery and idyllic publicity beforehand, with the reality being a sad let-down from same. It does appear that your Irish friend found – despite everything – at least a slightly positive aspect to the whole business; rather than (as might have happened with another in the same position) concluding from the experience, that this was a totally vile way of running a country / society, which all good men should henceforth dedicate their energies to doing away with, by whatever means.

 

[70014IronDuke]

.... (I don’t think I’ve ever heard what Bulgaria was like for someone working independently.) It was found -- even in Yugoslavia -- that things tended quite often (though not always) to be easier on the narrow gauge, which even the “guardians of security” had trouble taking seriously.

Re Bulgaria. You are right. I don't know anyone who really 'did' Bulgaria. One possible reason is simple - and it applied to me - if you go that far, why not carry on to Turkey, which was stunningly good still in 74-75, fantastic variety of locomotives, ridiculously friendly folk, cheap and security problems that were manageable. (Yeah, we got arrested there a few times, but solved it without any desperate hassle.)

To the extent that any of this stuff made any kind of sense; Yugoslavia’s unique paranoia-level was perhaps understandable, in that those in charge there saw potential enemies not only in the Western countries, but in the USSR and its allies too. I have seen it suggested that Jugoslav hostility to photters – always pretty bad – went right through the roof at the time of the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968 (when the Yugoslavs were terrified that they “might well be next”), and stayed very acute more or less till the end of steam on public lines.

There were other problems, as Yugos have told me when I have related my stories. Apparently there was a big Croatian nationalist protest in 1972 - and this had the security forces on high paranoia alert. I think I suffered from this.

... Our feeling in Serbia was rather, that most of the people just weren’t interested in us, and wished that we’d go away; a minority were pleasant and friendly. I have heard a fair number of accounts from various people, of quite ugly experiences in much of Yugoslavia-as-was – rail-photting-related, and more general stuff: what with that, and material in the bigger picture in recent decades, one is inclined to conclude that there seems to be a rather large number of decidedly “odd ducks” in that part of Europe.

TBH, I love former Yugo countries, and their peoples, now. Maybe with the exception of the Croatian coast, where too many locals have become fixated on making a bomb during the tourist season. [I do hate the awful road signage in Serbia, however - sudden 60 kmph limits imposed and then no signs saying when these end. Locals ignore them, but the police are always waiting. V frustrating.]

But back in 73, I can honestly say Yugo was the one country in all the world that I'd visited that I could have done without. Not because of the police/security troubles, I could live with that. I just found folks plain rude and ignorant, eg just pushing in front of you in shops when the queue consisted of - just me!

As with you, I think – I don’t recall having ever heard anything bad about Slovenia: reckoned, one gathers, by the Slovenes and folk in general, as “quite like the rest of Yugoslavia, only civilised”. I seem to recall in one of Colin Garratt’s books, material about a local railway enthusiast whom he teamed up with in Slovenia, in the early or mid-1970s – if memory serves rightly, a Mr. Brate, doubtless with accents on various letters. This amiable chap was most happy to take Garratt on visits to local steam-worked branches, where they photographed without trouble. Again if I recall rightly: when Garratt ventured further east in Yugoslavia, things predictably went less smoothly for him.

Mr Brate = Mr Brother I do remember some of C Garrat's piccies of an 06 2-8-2 on the Mura <Edit - Drava> river bridge at Maribor. He had a habit of milking a single position, even a single train, with multiple shots as I remember. (I thought that was cheating, in a book.)

And yes, in 1973, the branch to the west of Maribor (to Ruse and beyond) was steam worked - with OBB Class 77s - pacific tanks (I forget the JZ class number). I suspect Mr G went up that - and wish I'd done more than a ride at night up to the first loop and back, IIRC. Because I suspect it would have been easier photting around there - except it would have been near the border zone, so who knows?

Fascinating story from your acquaintance, about his construction-youth-camp doings. Certainly seems like one to file away as part of the “life-under-Communism-in-the-raw experience” – complete with flowery and idyllic publicity beforehand, with the reality being a sad let-down from same. It does appear that your Irish friend found – despite everything – at least a slightly positive aspect to the whole business; rather than (as might have happened with another in the same position) concluding from the experience, that this was a totally vile way of running a country / society, which all good men should henceforth dedicate their energies to doing away with, by whatever means.

On the "publicity" text - of course, I have reconstructed this after 44 years! I have tried not to exaggerate "the spirit" as I remember he told me, but it may not have been quite as idylic as I wrote it. OTOH, it may have been even more flowery for all I know!

Yes, he retained a quite positive attitude regarding the whole experience, as far as I could tell. OTOH, I don't think he re-applied to go again in 1974

 

[Calthrop]

Re Bulgaria. You are right. I don't know anyone who really 'did' Bulgaria. One possible reason is simple - and it applied to me - if you go that far, why not carry on to Turkey, which was stunningly good still in 74-75, fantastic variety of locomotives, ridiculously friendly folk, cheap and security problems that were manageable. (Yeah, we got arrested there a few times, but solved it without any desperate hassle.)

I do gather that a "plus" about Bulgaria was that it had -- "back when times were good" -- a number of interesting classes found nowhere else; this included real exoctica such as 4-10-0's and 2-12-4T's. And a couple of excellent 760mm gauge lines -- one in the lowlands, one up in the hills -- which kept steam till late. Unfortunately the "back when" aspect, applied strongly in Bulgaria: on the whole on the standard gauge, the interesting classes vanished long ago -- IIRC by the early-ish 1970s, there was very little left on the s/g except DR classes 50 and 52 in their local incarnations, and by 1980 s/g steam line working had finished.

I do recall reading in a contemporary mag -- Railway Magazine I think -- about an organised tour in Bulgaria in the mid-1960s: the local "minders" were co-operative and helpful, and seemingly a great time was had.

To my great regret, I never got to Turkey -- as ever with me, inviting stuff to do, exceeded resources.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

I'm a bit suprised the solider didn't open fire on your fleeing car. Seriously.
ps "in what is now Bosnia" - it was then too, just part of the Fed Republic. Was it near Banja Luka by any chance?

At the time we had absolutely no idea that this might be the case!
I've amused myself over the last few days searching for the photographs I took and trying to make some sense of the journey we made, and how we stumbled upon some steam. Anyway, to cut a long story short, the photos that I sought weren't where I thought (as is often the case!) and so I have scanned the negatives....and even then I thought that I had taken a photo of the train awaiting departure from the works complex but clearly I hadn't, although there is one of a goods train obviously taken from the back of the van with the works in the background.
Whether or not this was the train I recall I 'm not sure, as in my mind it was facing the other way...and we left the area before the train anyway!
Earlier we had come across what appeared to be a mixed train approaching and stopping at a wayside station, with definitely a friendly wave from the driver
As to the whereabouts, we were travelling from Foca to Travnik via Sarajevo, and with the help of Dave Sallery's excellent website I have deduced that we came across the 'Ostbahn' either between Foca and Gorazde or between there and Sarajevo. Apparently the line closed three years later. The locomotive is a class 83 0-8-2.
I hope that these photos are of interest....any comments that might help my memory would be welcome!

 

[70014IronDuke]

At the time we had absolutely no idea that this might be the case!
I've amused myself over the last few days searching for the photographs I took and trying to make some sense of the journey we made, and how we stumbled upon some steam. Anyway, to cut a long story short, the photos that I sought weren't where I thought (as is often the case!) and so I have scanned the negatives....and even then I thought that I had taken a photo of the train awaiting departure from the works complex but clearly I hadn't, although there is one of a goods train obviously taken from the back of the van with the works in the background.View attachment 34093
Whether or not this was the train I recall I 'm not sure, as in my mind it was facing the other way...and we left the area before the train anyway!
Earlier we had come across what appeared to be a mixed train approaching and stopping at a wayside station, with definitely a friendly wave from the driver
As to the whereabouts, we were travelling from Foca to Travnik via Sarajevo, and with the help of Dave Sallery's excellent website I have deduced that we came across the 'Ostbahn' either between Foca and Gorazde or between there and Sarajevo. Apparently the line closed three years later. The locomotive is a class 83 0-8-2.
I hope that these photos are of interest....any comments that might help my memory would be welcome!

Foca? !!! What the hell were you doing there? When was this? I was driving around Foca in 2009, and the roads were death traps even then. Sometimes the asphalt just stopped and .. you were left with some kind of track. And please don't get me on the subject of road signage in Yugoslavia, neither then nor now. The road signage directorate should be put in prison en mass, from the director to the cleaning lady.

I didn't know the narrow gauge line went to Foca. I suspect, however, that the last two pics were taken somewhere around Travnik. Did you go west of there, towards Donji Vakuf? I never saw the line when working, but there are certainly places as in your photos adjacent to the road where you could get piccies like you have.

Oh gosh, you've got me all Yugonostalgic now ...

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Foca? !!! What the hell were you doing there? When was this? I was driving around Foca in 2009, and the roads were death traps even then. Sometimes the asphalt just stopped and .. you were left with some kind of track. And please don't get me on the subject of road signage in Yugoslavia, neither then nor now. The road signage directorate should be put in prison en mass, from the director to the cleaning lady.

I didn't know the narrow gauge line went to Foca. I suspect, however, that the last two pics were taken somewhere around Travnik. Did you go west of there, towards Donji Vakuf? I never saw the line when working, but there are certainly places as in your photos adjacent to the road where you could get piccies like you have.

Oh gosh, you've got me all Yugonostalgic now ...

From my photographs, I can see that we travelled up from Dubrovnik and I do recall that the road was nothing more than a dusty track! As to what we were doing, just travelling and taking some time out!
According to the brief look I've had at Dave Sallery's site (well worth a visit if you're Yugonostalgic now!) the 76cm lines had closed by the time we were there in 1975 except for the Ostban which ran from Sarajevo to Visegrad with a junction at Ustipraca for Foca, so I am assuming that's where the photos were taken.....somewhere along this route. On my negs, the last two were taken before the first (sorry, I uploaded them the wrong way round).

 

[70014IronDuke]

From my photographs, I can see that we travelled up from Dubrovnik and I do recall that the road was nothing more than a dusty track! As to what we were doing, just travelling and taking some time out!

Ah, yes, I took the same road up from Dubrovnik in 2009. I didn't actually go into Foca - wish I'd had time to do so - but had to turn left about 7 km before I'd got there. That, in fact, was the main section of unpaved road. Must have been far more primitive in 75. I think the area is opening up more today, boosted by white-water rafting.

 

[Cowley]

Thanks to everyone who's contributed to this thread, it's been very interesting reading the tales and just what I was hoping for.

 

[Cowley]

At the time we had absolutely no idea that this might be the case!
I've amused myself over the last few days searching for the photographs I took and trying to make some sense of the journey we made, and how we stumbled upon some steam. Anyway, to cut a long story short, the photos that I sought weren't where I thought (as is often the case!) and so I have scanned the negatives....and even then I thought that I had taken a photo of the train awaiting departure from the works complex but clearly I hadn't, although there is one of a goods train obviously taken from the back of the van with the works in the background.View attachment 34093
Whether or not this was the train I recall I 'm not sure, as in my mind it was facing the other way...and we left the area before the train anyway!
Earlier we had come across what appeared to be a mixed train approaching and stopping at a wayside station, with definitely a friendly wave from the driver
As to the whereabouts, we were travelling from Foca to Travnik via Sarajevo, and with the help of Dave Sallery's excellent website I have deduced that we came across the 'Ostbahn' either between Foca and Gorazde or between there and Sarajevo. Apparently the line closed three years later. The locomotive is a class 83 0-8-2.
I hope that these photos are of interest....any comments that might help my memory would be welcome!

Those photos are fantastic.

 

[Calthrop]

A rather random thought which has occurred, on the general subject – for a fair number of us, I think, the pursuit of steam in Eastern Europe occasioned at times a degree of mixed feelings / divided loyalties. Without wishing to get far into political realms: I’d think most Westerners in the general period 1960 – 1990 were of the opinion (all rail matters aside) that Soviet bloc-style communism was a way of running society which had many things badly wrong with it; and which had, through historical circumstances, been forced upon the countries of Eastern Europe against their will.

Thus many of us at all events, felt much respect and admiration for those brave citizens of the “satellite” nations who objected to the system which they had to live under; and with great courage acted in various ways, toward changing things. But from a narrow / selfish / frivolous “gricing-only” point of view, occasionally it was hard not to regret these excellent folks’ timing.

One of my many “missings of the boat”, is never making it to Czechoslovakia when it was worthwhile for steam (gambled on seeing the envisagedly-possible very last real-steam knockings in 1981, but said trip was a failure from that point of view). I had been all set in autumn 1977, to take part in an officially-sanctioned visit to “Czecho”, with the organisation To Europe For Steam: a very busy-and-packed long weekend, based on Prague but travelling far and wide around the west of the country. Just as the trip was about to take place, the happenings in that country centring on the “Charter 77” protests hit their maximum heat; TEFS cancelled the visit. (They had no alternative – at best, the group would have been confined to what might have been do-able in the immediate environs of Prague; at worst, for all that anyone knew, a full-scale Soviet military invasion as in 1968 could occur while they were out there.) Mentally, the better and worse parts of me were in some conflict right at that time...

Similar ambivalent sentiments, concerning Poland a few years later. Myself and a small group of friends made, on our own initiative, a week’s private visit to Poland in late summer 1980 – when the doings of “Solidarity” were filling the headlines day after day, and who-knew-what in the shape of big-time repression, was thought likely to happen at any moment. I’d have preferred to go to Poland as part of an officially-sanctioned group, because it would have solved the photography problem; but what with the tensions just then, such organised railwaying visits to Poland were not happening: it was “do your own thing”, with the attendant risks, or be unable to go at all. That summer, I found myself regarding Mr. Wałęsa and his associates with great admiration; and simultaneously, now and again, cursing them for not “laying off” for a few years, until a time when the steam would be less good !

Re Poland, the balloon did not in fact go up for another fifteen months or so: the imposition then of “martial law”, proceeded to close the country off totally, from the railway-enthusiast point of view, for a good many months. Some organised officially-sanctioned group visits (initially, operating under severe restrictions) were allowed from autumn 1982; not very much later, private individual tourism was allowed once more. I – being, in the light of hindsight, over-cautious – went to Poland in summer 1983, on an organised tour; which (though most of its “customers” seemed thoroughly satisfied) was for me individually, disappointing and frustrating for various reasons. I could have gone there then, as a private venture; and wish that I had done so. I think the general picture got by enthusiasts was that through the mid- and late 1980s, once the martial-law set-up was lifted, railway photography in Poland was no more of a problem than it had been pre-1980 – i.e. maddeningly difficult, but no worse than before ! From 1989 and the end of Communism, not much of a trouble any more; but by then “real” Polish steam was a shadow of its former self, and lasted only a couple more years.

(My 1980 “private” visit with friends proved in the main, surprisingly free of bother with officialdom: in a week’s touring – in which we took plenty of pictures, but tried to exercise elementary common sense [and did not visit Gdańsk !] – we were arrested, not hugely alarmingly or lengthily, twice: one of these incidents resulted in the confiscation of one film. I have a theory – not entirely whimsical – that the political crisis and consequent anxiety which obtained, paradoxically made railway photography right then, easier: the state’s guardians of authority had, for a change, something to worry about which was more real, and perceived as more urgent, than the charade – as which many of them must privately have seen it – of harassing “photters”.)

 

[Taunton]

Thus many of us at all events, felt much respect and admiration for those brave citizens of the “satellite” nations who objected to the system which they had to live under

I can assure you, with opinions from those on the other side of the fence, that exactly the same sensations were felt by those from the Soviet Union. The Republics felt it against Moscow. The Muscovites themselves felt it against the self-servers in The Kremlin.

I was told of an incident in a 1980s Russian city centre bar, with a television which was showing the evening news. This opened up with sophisticated studio shots of the presenters over in Moscow, fully like a Western production. Man and woman presenters, smartly dressed in western business clothes. "Good evening. Here is the news". First item. Straight face. "The Central Committee announce that Collective Farm No, 154 by Kazan has increased their beetroot production by 22% over quota. The Central Committee sends congratulations to the workers of Collective farm No 154 ...". The rest of it was lost to huge hoots of derision, raspberries being blown against Chernenko (then leader), exasperated faces, and culminating in a by no means drunk group exposing their backsides to the television screen.

 

[StephenHunter]

It's interesting to note that many of the bloc countries had a 'no photographs out of plane windows' rule...

 

[Cowley]

I can assure you, with opinions from those on the other side of the fence, that exactly the same sensations were felt by those from the Soviet Union. The Republics felt it against Moscow. The Muscovites themselves felt it against the self-servers in The Kremlin.

I was told of an incident in a 1980s Russian city centre bar, with a television which was showing the evening news. This opened up with sophisticated studio shots of the presenters over in Moscow, fully like a Western production. Man and woman presenters, smartly dressed in western business clothes. "Good evening. Here is the news". First item. Straight face. "The Central Committee announce that Collective Farm No, 154 by Kazan has increased their beetroot production by 22% over quota. The Central Committee sends congratulations to the workers of Collective farm No 154 ...". The rest of it was lost to huge hoots of derision, raspberries being blown against Chernenko (then leader), exasperated faces, and culminating in a by no means drunk group exposing their backsides to the television screen.

Brilliant
I have to show similar excitement when shown Mrs Cowley's home grown beetroots, actually now I think about it I don't usually react like that (may do from now on mind).

 

[Cowley]

A rather random thought which has occurred, on the general subject – for a fair number of us, I think, the pursuit of steam in Eastern Europe occasioned at times a degree of mixed feelings / divided loyalties. Without wishing to get far into political realms: I’d think most Westerners in the general period 1960 – 1990 were of the opinion (all rail matters aside) that Soviet bloc-style communism was a way of running society which had many things badly wrong with it; and which had, through historical circumstances, been forced upon the countries of Eastern Europe against their will.

Thus many of us at all events, felt much respect and admiration for those brave citizens of the “satellite” nations who objected to the system which they had to live under; and with great courage acted in various ways, toward changing things. But from a narrow / selfish / frivolous “gricing-only” point of view, occasionally it was hard not to regret these excellent folks’ timing.

One of my many “missings of the boat”, is never making it to Czechoslovakia when it was worthwhile for steam (gambled on seeing the envisagedly-possible very last real-steam knockings in 1981, but said trip was a failure from that point of view). I had been all set in autumn 1977, to take part in an officially-sanctioned visit to “Czecho”, with the organisation To Europe For Steam: a very busy-and-packed long weekend, based on Prague but travelling far and wide around the west of the country. Just as the trip was about to take place, the happenings in that country centring on the “Charter 77” protests hit their maximum heat; TEFS cancelled the visit. (They had no alternative – at best, the group would have been confined to what might have been do-able in the immediate environs of Prague; at worst, for all that anyone knew, a full-scale Soviet military invasion as in 1968 could occur while they were out there.) Mentally, the better and worse parts of me were in some conflict right at that time...

Similar ambivalent sentiments, concerning Poland a few years later. Myself and a small group of friends made, on our own initiative, a week’s private visit to Poland in late summer 1980 – when the doings of “Solidarity” were filling the headlines day after day, and who-knew-what in the shape of big-time repression, was thought likely to happen at any moment. I’d have preferred to go to Poland as part of an officially-sanctioned group, because it would have solved the photography problem; but what with the tensions just then, such organised railwaying visits to Poland were not happening: it was “do your own thing”, with the attendant risks, or be unable to go at all. That summer, I found myself regarding Mr. Wałęsa and his associates with great admiration; and simultaneously, now and again, cursing them for not “laying off” for a few years, until a time when the steam would be less good !

Re Poland, the balloon did not in fact go up for another fifteen months or so: the imposition then of “martial law”, proceeded to close the country off totally, from the railway-enthusiast point of view, for a good many months. Some organised officially-sanctioned group visits (initially, operating under severe restrictions) were allowed from autumn 1982; not very much later, private individual tourism was allowed once more. I – being, in the light of hindsight, over-cautious – went to Poland in summer 1983, on an organised tour; which (though most of its “customers” seemed thoroughly satisfied) was for me individually, disappointing and frustrating for various reasons. I could have gone there then, as a private venture; and wish that I had done so. I think the general picture got by enthusiasts was that through the mid- and late 1980s, once the martial-law set-up was lifted, railway photography in Poland was no more of a problem than it had been pre-1980 – i.e. maddeningly difficult, but no worse than before ! From 1989 and the end of Communism, not much of a trouble any more; but by then “real” Polish steam was a shadow of its former self, and lasted only a couple more years.

(My 1980 “private” visit with friends proved in the main, surprisingly free of bother with officialdom: in a week’s touring – in which we took plenty of pictures, but tried to exercise elementary common sense [and did not visit Gdańsk !] – we were arrested, not hugely alarmingly or lengthily, twice: one of these incidents resulted in the confiscation of one film. I have a theory – not entirely whimsical – that the political crisis and consequent anxiety which obtained, paradoxically made railway photography right then, easier: the state’s guardians of authority had, for a change, something to worry about which was more real, and perceived as more urgent, than the charade – as which many of them must privately have seen it – of harassing “photters”.)

I had a very interesting chat to a couple that had grown up in the former East Germany the other day, I was quite struck by (and it wasn't the first time that I'd been struck by similar sentiments) their nostalgia for the life they'd grown up with - he had been 15 and she 11 when The Wall had come down - before things had changed so dramatically. I found this all fascinating and in a strange way was quite pleased to hear something positive said by these folks on their personal memories of life pre 1989.
Because of what I've read on here and what I've learned through other sources I couldn't stop asking them questions and they were interested in our views (and our kids views) on Europe/Brexit etc. Unfortunately I didn't manage to steer the subject onto railways but we've swapped numbers so I'll get em next time...

 

[Calthrop]

Brilliant
I have to show similar excitement when shown Mrs Cowley's home grown beetroots, actually now I think about it I don't usually react like that (may do from now on mind).

Yes -- you don't want her over-over-fulfilling her beetroot plan...

I had a very interesting chat to a couple that had grown up in the former East Germany the other day, I was quite struck by (and it wasn't the first time that I'd been struck by similar sentiments) their nostalgia for the life they'd grown up with - he had been 15 and she 11 when The Wall had come down - before things had changed so dramatically. I found this all fascinating and in a strange way was quite pleased to hear something positive said by these folks on their personal memories of life pre 1989.
Because of what I've read on here and what I've learned through other sources I couldn't stop asking them questions and they were interested in our views (and our kids views) on Europe/Brexit etc. Unfortunately I didn't manage to steer the subject onto railways but we've swapped numbers so I'll get em next time...

The nostalgia for some of that scene -- I've had inklings of same, re relatively recent dealings with Poles, and a (possibly final, alas) Poland visit a few years ago. I for one, could never work up the white-heat-of-a-thousand-suns loathing and anger about Eastern-Europe-under-the-Communist-yoke, which was displayed by some people (the late Bernard Levin comes to mind). In my perception, the whole thing was crummy and highly corrupt -- but it had a few (not always intentional) positive features; and had "atmosphere" in a not 100% horrible way. On the whole, the population found ways of living with it; and, it would seem, managed despite everything to get a fair amount of fun out of life.

 

[Taunton]

A wry film made by former East Germans after reunification, "Goodbye Lenin". It's on DVD in English.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Bye,_Lenin!

 

[Calthrop]

A wry film made by former East Germans after reunification, "Goodbye Lenin". It's on DVD in English.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Bye,_Lenin!

Thanks for the link. Seems a film worth following up -- an interesting and unusual conception: in-part farcical "take" on a serious subject.

 

[Cowley]

Thanks for the link. Seems a film worth following up -- an interesting and unusual conception: in-part farcical "take" on a serious subject.

That does look good. I may give that a watch at some point.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Ive got a couple of photographs of steam locos out in Siberia in August 89 at home. They weren't in steam but looked in fairly good external order. They were in station sidings right next to the electrified Trans Siberian main line.

 

[Calthrop]

Ive got a couple of photographs of steam locos out in Siberia in August 89 at home. They weren't in steam but looked in fairly good external order. They were in station sidings right next to the electrified Trans Siberian main line.

The Soviet Union was big on keeping steam locos in reserve, against assorted envisaged possible emergencies. A fair number of steam locos also continued in use for shunting duties, even after steam was virtually finished on line working anywhere. I've come across various reports from travellers on the Trans-Siberian, seeing steam at work shunting at intermediate points: even well into the 1990s, post-USSR.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I had a very interesting chat to a couple that had grown up in the former East Germany the other day, I was quite struck by (and it wasn't the first time that I'd been struck by similar sentiments) their nostalgia for the life they'd grown up with - he had been 15 and she 11 when The Wall had come down - before things had changed so dramatically. I found this all fascinating and in a strange way was quite pleased to hear something positive said by these folks on their personal memories of life pre 1989.
Because of what I've read on here and what I've learned through other sources I couldn't stop asking them questions and they were interested in our views (and our kids views) on Europe/Brexit etc. Unfortunately I didn't manage to steer the subject onto railways but we've swapped numbers so I'll get em next time...

Nostalgia is a great way to overcome the negatives of the past. If you are 50-ish now, your teenage years started around 1980. By then, most of the E Bloc countries were beginning to have self doubts about the whole system. The doubts came out in different ways. In Hungary it was semi-official. In Czech, Romania and the DDR the governments refused to admit any such weakness, and redoubled efforts to maintain the system - officially. But the laws were enacted by people, even if they were party members, many had doubts. Some freedoms were allowed, not even in the Soviet Union could they stop the rising influence of pop-rock music - even Moscow had to allow the Beatles in, and that was still the 60s.

Whatever, in your teenage years and early 20s, looking back, you forget the anxieties and negatives. From Zagreb to Gdansk, remind folks of those years and their eyes glaze over as they remember student life, loves, parties, concerts. Sure, some do hark back - but if you forced them to give up their passports to the west, restricted their access to low-quality Soviet-bloc goods and (in some cases) rationed their petrol to 8 -10 litres per month, they'd very soon be complaining and wanting change.

 

[Cowley]

Nostalgia is a great way to overcome the negatives of the past. If you are 50-ish now, your teenage years started around 1980. By then, most of the E Bloc countries were beginning to have self doubts about the whole system. The doubts came out in different ways. In Hungary it was semi-official. In Czech, Romania and the DDR the governments refused to admit any such weakness, and redoubled efforts to maintain the system - officially. But the laws were enacted by people, even if they were party members, many had doubts. Some freedoms were allowed, not even in the Soviet Union could they stop the rising influence of pop-rock music - even Moscow had to allow the Beatles in, and that was still the 60s.

Whatever, in your teenage years and early 20s, looking back, you forget the anxieties and negatives. From Zagreb to Gdansk, remind folks of those years and their eyes glaze over as they remember student life, loves, parties, concerts. Sure, some do hark back - but if you forced them to give up their passports to the west, restricted their access to low-quality Soviet-bloc goods and (in some cases) rationed their petrol to 8 -10 litres per month, they'd very soon be complaining and wanting change.

I'm sure this is absolutely so and has got me thinking about starting a thread on misplaced nostalgia.
I can understand why a certain generation could feel that way but as you say they probably wouldn't swap the freedom and choices that they have now with what they would have had under the system their parents grew up in, yet despite myself just a small part of me was a little bit pleased to hear someone say that it wasn't all bad.
I have no experience of how it was though and no matter how much I read about it I'll never truly understand.

 

[Calthrop]

I'm sure this is absolutely so and has got me thinking about starting a thread on misplaced nostalgia.
I can understand why a certain generation could feel that way but as you say they probably wouldn't swap the freedom and choices that they have now with what they would have had under the system their parents grew up in, yet despite myself just a small part of me was a little bit pleased to hear someone say that it wasn't all bad.
I have no experience of how it was though and no matter how much I read about it I'll never truly understand.

(My bolding) -- hope you do that -- potential to be an interesting thread.

I feel basically though, that no nostalgia is misplaced: humans and human society are complicated -- except in ultimate "seventh-circle-under-the-Pit" total-horror-for-all situations, there are people who have known -- especially in childhood / youth -- pretty well any time or place one could think of, of which they individually, have positive memories. Especially with people's tendency to see the past through rose-tinted glasses. Interesting topic, anyway.

 

[Taunton]

I've come across various reports from travellers on the Trans-Siberian, seeing steam at work shunting at intermediate points: even well into the 1990s, post-USSR.

I did understand that the "official" announcements in Moscow about progress with modernisation, and particularly compliance with plan, were often significantly at variance with actuality.

Not unknown in Britain either, of course (especially with electrification completion dates).

 

[Calthrop]

I did understand that the "official" announcements in Moscow about progress with modernisation, and particularly compliance with plan, were often significantly at variance with actuality.

Not unknown in Britain either, of course (especially with electrification completion dates).

Fairly often encountered in a variety of countries. If I have things rightly: steam continued to run in a few corners of the Turkish State Railways, for at least a couple of years after they had officially pronounced themselves steam-free -- enthusiasts went out and revelled in the supposedly non-existent steam action.

The Czechoslovak State Railways officially proclaimed in 1980, that they had just eliminated steam; but various subsequent reports by visiting enthusiasts, told of steam action still going on in some places. Inspired by same, I went there for a week in Feb. 1981 -- visits to the putatively best places indicated by the meagre info: revealed only at several locosheds, one steam loco (usually their local "standard" 2-10-0 type, whose designation I at present lack) in steam -- one takes it, for heating purposes and / or in case of emergency -- but nothing steam, turned a wheel while I was there. It could have been that while I was over there, there were feasts of steam action at other, unguessable venues -- it was all a total "crapshoot". (I did see a 2-8-2T in industrial service.)

Czechoslovakia in early 1981 was fascinating, even basically "steamless" -- I don't regret the trip.

 

[181]

I've come across various reports from travellers on the Trans-Siberian, seeing steam at work shunting at intermediate points: even well into the 1990s, post-USSR.

If I remember rightly, when passing through Baranavichy in Belarus as late as August 1999 (i.e. not the steam heating season) I saw a steam locomotive with smoke coming out of its chimney. My brother saw one a few days later, again from a passing train, at Bologoye on the St. Petersburg-Moscow line (I didn't see it as I was distracted by having food poisoning).