Chartham and Wye Manual Crossing Gates

[Joey Beauchamp]

Hello,

Just wondering if anyone with local knowledge can tell me whether these have been replaced with automatic barriers yet?

My wife and son are away for a couple of weeks, so I'm planning a trip to see them in mid July, hopefully before they're gone.

Thanks!

 

[Gloster]

The latest edition of The Signalling Record, the journal of the Signalling Record Society, which arrived yesterday, says both are due to be demanned in December next. They are due to be replaced by CCTV-controlled barriers.

 

[MadMac]

Chartham will obviously need a Method Statement. Only those of a certain age will get that…..

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Chartham will obviously need a Method Statement. Only those of a certain age will get that…..

Yes, a risk assessment. But why not Wye?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jun 2022 ==

The latest edition of The Signalling Record, the journal of the Signalling Record Society, which arrived yesterday, says both are due to be demanned in December next. They are due to be replaced by CCTV-controlled barriers.

Isn't that when the Wye Area Control Centre is to be abolished?

 

[Gloster]

Isn't that when the Wye Area Control Centre is to be abolished?

I don’t know the area, but my reading is that both crossings will thereafter be controlled by CCTV from Canterbury Wye ACC.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Wye is going to be an interesting one with the amount of traffic at the junction - unheard of just 1 or 2 decades ago... And I don't think the road is wide enough for 4 lifting barriers...same at Chartham?

Yes, would make sense for both to be controlled from Canterbury-Wye-Area Control Centre

 

[Geogregor]

Hello,

Just wondering if anyone with local knowledge can tell me whether these have been replaced with automatic barriers yet?

My wife and son are away for a couple of weeks, so I'm planning a trip to see them in mid July, hopefully before they're gone.

Thanks!

Old school crossing is still there, shots from a few weeks ago:

P1210374 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1210378 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1210490 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

 

[Islineclear3_1]

To save a new thread what are the works between Ashford and Canterbury West today please?

And out of interest, why was MCB chosen over OD?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

So, works have started at Chartham crossing.

Thought I saw a previous statement by Network Rail that the main works, including recontrol to CWACC would take place between 3rd - 19th December. Is this still correct?

Also, why was MCB chosen over OD?

 

[endofthetunnel]

I don’t know the particular crossing for a specific answer but choice of MCB-CCTV or MCB-OD is based on risk assessments and a complicated matrix of factors.

Not only rail, vehicle and pedestrian levels over the crossing, but things like risk of crossing abuse, chance of congestion over the crossings, the size and shape of the crossing area and if there is space for OD or camera systems to be placed, or indeed too large or small for a particular system. Similarly existing signaller workload, and integration and compatibility with other systems, space on workstation/panels, etc.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I don’t know the particular crossing for a specific answer but choice of MCB-CCTV or MCB-OD is based on risk assessments and a complicated matrix of factors.

Not only rail, vehicle and pedestrian levels over the crossing, but things like risk of crossing abuse, chance of congestion over the crossings, the size and shape of the crossing area and if there is space for OD or camera systems to be placed, or indeed too large or small for a particular system. Similarly existing signaller workload, and integration and compatibility with other systems, space on workstation/panels, etc.

Yup I get all of that. I know in East Sussex, some crossings became OD upon resignalling and there are a few of them.

I would have thought an OD crossing at Chartham might have meant less workload for the signallers at CWACC but as it's on my patch so to speak, I would be interested as to what the deciding factors were for a MCB-CCTV type crossing. I'm sure it wasn't just for convenience as the crossings at Chilham and Canterbury West are also MCB-CCTV

 

[Gloster]

Looking at the air photos on google, I would guess it is because there is a junction immediately south of the crossing with a right-angled turn into a road running immediately parallel with the railway. The assessment probably reckoned that this meant that there was too high a risk of vehicles encroaching on or blocking the crossing. (But I do not know the location.)

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Yes, the (minor) road through the crossing joins up with the A28 at its north end but it's less busy than, say the road that passes by Pevensey & Westham and at most, about 8 cars can wait at the crossing for a train to pass.

Having thought this through myself now and observed many signallers open and close the gates over the years, I've seen some open the gates immediately after the safe passage of one train to let a few cars through and then close them again - whilst others have left the gates shut to traffic (i.e. for longer) until the second train has passed.

The situation at Wye however, is very different as the junction layout is much, much busier and will definately need monitoring. I heard rumours/speculation that Wye might not even get "done" this year, but we shall see. The gates are certainly closed for longer at certain times of the day

 

[32475]

I went past the crossing at Chartham last week and saw the gates were still in use. Today however the road is closed, the old gates removed and work to install the new barriers is ongoing. RIP Chartham crossing gates.

 

[zwk500]

I went past the crossing at Chartham last week and saw the gates were still in use. Today however the road is closed, the old gates removed and work to install the new barriers is ongoing. RIP Chartham crossing gates.

One of the few modernisations that are unequivocally good. 1 less post to fill sitting in a box on their own for hours on end, with a very important but mind-numbingly dull job that can easily be done by technology, with added safety and capacity benefits. Would have been better to bridge it, but pragmatism is needed sometimes.

 

[richa2002]

One of the few modernisations that are unequivocally good. 1 less post to fill sitting in a box on their own for hours on end, with a very important but mind-numbingly dull job that can easily be done by technology, with added safety and capacity benefits. Would have been better to bridge it, but pragmatism is needed sometimes.

Unequivocally good? How about the beauty of a manual crossing gate compared to a modern one with its garish flashing lights and siren? How about the old gent who enjoys saying "Morning" to the crossing keeper? How about just having a human presence and an extra pair of eyes with a higher understanding of the locality?

I'm curious to know about the safety and capacity benefits the removal of these gates will bring?

And of course, someone has lost their job. You may see it as mind-numbingly dull but it suit others right down to the ground.

I see nothing unequivocal about these modernisations. Perhaps to a scientific and efficiency obsessed mind but there are others way of looking at the world and what is good.

In the past 70+ years or so, thousands of manual signal boxes and crossings have been replaced with cost saving being sited as one of the main benefits. Why do we not have a far cheaper railway by now?

 

[endofthetunnel]

Unequivocally good? How about the beauty of a manual crossing gate compared to a modern one with its garish flashing lights and siren? How about the old gent who enjoys saying "Morning" to the crossing keeper? How about just having a human presence and an extra pair of eyes with a higher understanding of the locality?

Well, let’s ignore beauty as that’s entirely subjective. Similarly there might be locals who hate the crossing keeper but I understand how a community may feel they lose a stalwart in these situations.

I'm curious to know about the safety and capacity benefits the removal of these gates will bring?

Well, it’s safer to not need a crossing keeper to walk on the track and the road to open and close gates, be that the risk of road/rail accidents or purely a slip or trip. There’s also the risks involved with commuting and just existing at work.
It’s safer to have barriers which are interlocked with signals, so if one is broken once closed, signals get replaced immediately. Similarly to have an OD system monitoring the crossing for incursions and replacing signals in those cases too. And if either of these systems do operate, or have errors, they are all recorded and monitored to either diagnose or replay incidents.
In terms of capacity, this can vary, but in general manual gates are slower to close and definitely slower to open than barriers. This allows more traffic between trains and a shorter down time. But for trains it can mean an increase in line speed, the potential for multiple trains at once, or just no difference at all, as you suggest.

Why do we not have a far cheaper railway by now?

Each person employed costs a huge amount, that’s not up for debate. The railways staff bill for signallers and crossing keepers is significantly lower than it would be if all these people still existed, but I can’t speak for the overall budgets of the railway. The money is used elsewhere, on improvements, maintenance, other staff, etc etc…

 

[zwk500]

Unequivocally good? How about the beauty of a manual crossing gate compared to a modern one with its garish flashing lights and siren? How about the old gent who enjoys saying "Morning" to the crossing keeper? How about just having a human presence and an extra pair of eyes with a higher understanding of the locality?

I knew somebody would bite. Why do you need a 'higher understanding of the locality' to operate a crossing? When not operational the crossing is quite unobtrusive, and when the warning needs to be given its good that its loud and the gatekeeper isn't at risk of being run down.

I'm curious to know about the safety and capacity benefits the removal of these gates will bring?

addressed above.

And of course, someone has lost their job. You may see it as mind-numbingly dull but it suit others right down to the ground.

and the railway is in a staffing crises, there are other posts that individual can fill. However organisationally the railway can abolish several posts for the shifts and relief/holiday cover. Less posts equals less management required, which either means 1 less manager post or an existing manager can focus more on their remaining staff and work.

I see nothing unequivocal about these modernisations. Perhaps to a scientific and efficiency obsessed mind but there are others way of looking at the world and what is good.

Rose-tinted ways perhaps. You can stay on the horse and cart era if you want.

In the past 70+ years or so, thousands of manual signal boxes and crossings have been replaced with cost saving being sited as one of the main benefits. Why do we not have a far cheaper railway by now?

We have a far cheaper railway than we otherwise would have!

 

[MarkyT]

We have a far cheaper railway than we otherwise would have!

Even a low-grade crossing or SB cabin open 24/7 is likely to cost in the region of £100K p.a in staffing. Maintenance can be fairly minimal, even including piecemeal renewals of components without major design change, although obsolescence of certain parts can eventually become a problem and an appreciable cost occasionally. Complete replacement by modern tech is expensive though, often well in excess of £1m per installation today, so can be difficult to justify hence why so many rural lines in particular continue to bear high staffing costs. Busy mainlines have often been resignalled repeatedly within the lifetimes of some of this ancient equipment on branches and secondary routes.

 

[zwk500]

Even a low-grade crossing or SB cabin open 24/7 is likely to cost in the region of £100K p.a in staffing. Maintenance can be fairly minimal, even including piecemeal renewals of components without major design change, although obsolescence of certain parts can eventually become a problem and an appreciable cost occasionally. Complete replacement by modern tech is expensive though, often well in excess of £1m per installation today, so can be difficult to justify hence why so many rural lines in particular continue to bear high staffing costs. Busy mainlines have often been resignalled repeatedly within the lifetimes of some of this ancient equipment on branches and secondary routes.

Yes, on rural lines the requirements for higher speed and more efficient capacity are less, so the value of the crossing replacement is less. But that's primarily about only having so much money to go around, rather than manned crossings being 'better' on those lines. A bridge is better than both, although more expensive still.

 

[yorksrob]

Wye has always had a beautiful country station feel to it, enhanced by the crossing. This was actually diminished a few years ago by NSE when they replaced the very "Southern" Exmouth Junction concrete lamp posts and 'flower' lamp shades with mundane modern lamp posts.

 

[32475]

I found this photo I took in 1981 showing the old ‘proper timber’ gates at Chartham.

 

[John Webb]

Wye has always had a beautiful country station feel to it, enhanced by the crossing. This was actually diminished a few years ago by NSE when they replaced the very "Southern" Exmouth Junction concrete lamp posts and 'flower' lamp shades with mundane modern lamp posts.

Here's a view from 1984:
Wye Railway Station 1984

© Copyright John Baker and licensed for reuse under this Creative Commons Licence.
(Click on photo to go to the larger original on the Geograph website.)
The photographer says that the concrete lamp posts were replaced around 1990.

 

[yorksrob]

Here's a view from 1984:
Wye Railway Station 1984

© Copyright John Baker and licensed for reuse under this Creative Commons Licence.
(Click on photo to go to the larger original on the Geograph website.)
The photographer says that the concrete lamp posts were replaced around 1990.

Yes, reminds me of my youth !

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Semaphore signals then too

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Dec 2022 ==

Works well advanced at Wye with trains running between strike days