Charter Train Company Potential?

[8stewartt]

Good Afternoon All,

Been thinking about this for a while, but unsure of how easy it would be, what would be involved, would it make any money ect, so wondering if there was anyone on here who could help answer the below might be a never to happen dream but if I don't ask the question I will never know the answer.

How feasible would it be to lease/buy (and how much roughly?) an ex operational HST, a FGW one for example when they get replaced in a couple of years time, change the livery and run it as a charter company?

There are obviously people who enjoy HST/diesel trains, just the same as people do steam, who would enjoy a day out travelling on one? Could also be promoted to and chartered by football clubs as an individual train to do say Manchester Piccadilly to Wembley and return for Manchester United, or any other football club for that matter. Inclusive of bar/kitchen/dining car to do a premier dining service upon and also serve real ales etc. obviously having a cab at either end would make it easier for pathing reversal moves, where as current charters require to uncouple, find a path to run round etc.

Plus, if were to become successful, purchase the scot rail sleeper cars, which would allow charters to be run say paddington to penzance, stay over, penzance to scotland, stay over, scotland to euston etc.

If anyone cares to offer any information/thoughts on whether it would be possible, profitable, welcomed, how easy it is to find paths for such tours, how it could be started up etc?

Thanks

 

[alexl92]

I imagine your startup costs would be huge. As well as stock and pathing, you've got track access charges, maintenence, stabling etc etc... Having said that, there is arguably room for a rival tour operator in the market as 90% are WCRC or DBS.

 

[theblackwatch]

If anyone cares to offer any information/thoughts on whether it would be possible, profitable, welcomed, how easy it is to find paths for such tours, how it could be started up etc?

The first thing you need is an understanding of the business. I'm afraid to say, if you don't already know the answers to those questions, you shouldn't be doing it.

What do Steamy Affairs, Kingfisher Railtours, Heartland Rail, Past Time Rail, Stobart Railtours, Flamboyant Trains etc all have in common?

 

[najaB]

What do Steamy Affairs, Kingfisher Railtours, Heartland Rail, Past Time Rail, Stobart Railtours, Flamboyant Trains etc all have in common?

Don't know, I've never heard of them. :?

 

[8stewartt]

The first thing you need is an understanding of the business. I'm afraid to say, if you don't already know the answers to those questions, you shouldn't be doing it.

What do Steamy Affairs, Kingfisher Railtours, Heartland Rail, Past Time Rail, Stobart Railtours, Flamboyant Trains etc all have in common?

I have heard of many of them but unsure of the common feature? Im guessing its something to do with being unsuccessful?

I have a rough basic understanding of things, but nowhere near as in depth as I would need to, but thats where I was hoping some useful advice would be sought on here

Don't get me wrong, i'm only 24, but just thinking of a future career/business at the minute and my heritage rail interests are driving me towards something like I have mentioned earlier

Cheers

 

[DarloRich]

Good Afternoon All,

Been thinking about this for a while, but unsure of how easy it would be, what would be involved, would it make any money ect, so wondering if there was anyone on here who could help answer the below might be a never to happen dream but if I don't ask the question I will never know the answer.

How feasible would it be to lease/buy (and how much roughly?) an ex operational HST, a FGW one for example when they get replaced in a couple of years time, change the livery and run it as a charter company?

There are obviously people who enjoy HST/diesel trains, just the same as people do steam, who would enjoy a day out travelling on one? Could also be promoted to and chartered by football clubs as an individual train to do say Manchester Piccadilly to Wembley and return for Manchester United, or any other football club for that matter. Inclusive of bar/kitchen/dining car to do a premier dining service upon and also serve real ales etc. obviously having a cab at either end would make it easier for pathing reversal moves, where as current charters require to uncouple, find a path to run round etc.

Plus, if were to become successful, purchase the scot rail sleeper cars, which would allow charters to be run say paddington to penzance, stay over, penzance to scotland, stay over, scotland to euston etc.

If anyone cares to offer any information/thoughts on whether it would be possible, profitable, welcomed, how easy it is to find paths for such tours, how it could be started up etc?

Thanks

You will go bankrupt in about 4 seconds (if you manage to find the start up funds) unless you acquire some commercial nouse and operational know how.

What do Steamy Affairs, Kingfisher Railtours, Heartland Rail, Past Time Rail, Stobart Railtours, Flamboyant Trains etc all have in common?

erm - going pop?

 

[broadgage]

I can certainly see a market for one or more preserved HSTs for charters and rail tours etc.
They are a go (almost) anywhere train and many prefer them to more modern alternatives.
The costs, liabilities and potential pitfalls are huge however and I cant forsee an individual having both the money AND the expertise to preserve an HST and run it on the mainline.

More likely to be viable for an established operator, or perhaps one of the larger heritage railways that has experience of maintaining stock to main line standards.

There is already an HST preservation group and efforts might be better directed towards helping that group, rather than in effect competing with them.

http://www.125group.org.uk/

 

[OLJR]

As others have said, although fixed costs could be substantial there are one or two operators in this space so there may be some profits to be made.

However I wonder if there is scope to look at it in a slightly different way, acting as a specialist tour operator using the existing network to couple great train journeys with other experiences.

At a certain scale you will be able to make special agreements with the TOCs which could reduce costs per passenger substantially. And there may also be potential to work with other businesses to bundle the train journey with their own products.

 

[306024]

Suggest you go on Dragons Den to see if they think there is money to be made Personally I'm out, and I have a sneaking suspicion so are they.

Just getting the legalities sorted before you turn a wheel is a minefield. I know someone who got their fingers burnt with a similar adventure, and they had many years experience in the industry.

 

[8stewartt]

So maybe someone like Riviera trains could purchase/lease one, and run it in addition there current fleet of 120 plus coaching stock, or as a side-line business using current maintenance/access arrangement?

There is certainly a market for HST rail tours on the mainline and with them being like you say a go anywhere unit with minimal turnaround times, certainly gives it many pro factors

 

[bluenoxid]

This reminds me of the response to a call a colleague took recently.

He had said that the caller had decided that morning to start an energy supplier that morning and was asking around about it. After all, we see the massive profits they make?

There is nothing wrong with asking about it and wondering about the possibilities but any touring business (rail, coach, plane, boat, etc) is going to be fairly low margin apart from at the high end of the market.

You're 24. I've dealt with many people of your age. Some have smashed almost to director level and others are staring at their belly button. Most are in between. The main thing you need is to keep thinking, exploring, learning and practicing. Starting a major operation with multiple contributions (transport/engineering/sales) that is not within your area of expertise is not something I would recommend (do not mix up interest with expertise) at your age/situation.

 

[theblackwatch]

erm - going pop?

All failed tour promoters.

And if you prefer spot hire firms, how about Fragonset/FM Rail or Cotswold Rail? Anyone who isn't aware of them doesn't know anything about the train hire business - it would be a bit like trying to start up a bank when having never heard of Northern Rock!

 

[yorksrob]

Good Afternoon All,

Been thinking about this for a while, but unsure of how easy it would be, what would be involved, would it make any money ect, so wondering if there was anyone on here who could help answer the below might be a never to happen dream but if I don't ask the question I will never know the answer.

How feasible would it be to lease/buy (and how much roughly?) an ex operational HST, a FGW one for example when they get replaced in a couple of years time, change the livery and run it as a charter company?

There are obviously people who enjoy HST/diesel trains, just the same as people do steam, who would enjoy a day out travelling on one? Could also be promoted to and chartered by football clubs as an individual train to do say Manchester Piccadilly to Wembley and return for Manchester United, or any other football club for that matter. Inclusive of bar/kitchen/dining car to do a premier dining service upon and also serve real ales etc. obviously having a cab at either end would make it easier for pathing reversal moves, where as current charters require to uncouple, find a path to run round etc.

Plus, if were to become successful, purchase the scot rail sleeper cars, which would allow charters to be run say paddington to penzance, stay over, penzance to scotland, stay over, scotland to euston etc.

If anyone cares to offer any information/thoughts on whether it would be possible, profitable, welcomed, how easy it is to find paths for such tours, how it could be started up etc?

Thanks

You may be interested in this website:

http://www.hastingsdiesels.co.uk/about/

They bought diesel units when they were retired and now run railtours with them (as well as hiring them out on charters). A point to note is that they also bought the depot (with a separate company) so they have the means to maintain their train as well.

 

[D1009]

But West Coast Railway Co. seems immune from this, despite owning heritage traction, rolling stock and being a charter train operator. They still seem to carry on despite Network Raill calling their safety procedures into question last year. If HSTs eventually come on the market at an affordable rate, it wouldn't surprise me if WCRC buys one.

 

[8stewartt]

I wouldn't be surprised either to be honest, has a massive potential.

Thanks for the advice all.

Shall keep looking and thinking of a way into the rail industry

 

[route:oxford]

Shall keep looking and thinking of a way into the rail industry

The way to make money in the rail industry, is exactly the same as any other industry...

Identify a marketable product or service that is needed day in, day out.

You don't make money with an asset that sits in a siding for 13 days a fortnight.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I wouldn't be surprised either to be honest, has a massive potential.

Thanks for the advice all.

Shall keep looking and thinking of a way into the rail industry

If you are looking for a way into the rail industry why not apply for a job working for a TOC, FOC, Network Rail or perhaps one of the leasing companies. Whilst you will never be likely to earn mega money, on the whole you would earn a decent wage with career prospects. The industry is also heavily unionised and providing you are a member someone will look out for you in times of strife. I've never worked in the rail industry and have no desire to do so but I can see why many people follow that path.

 

[cambsy]

I would go on Pathfinder Tours or UK Rail Tours, and casually talk to Peter Watts or John Farrow if on the trains, as they have been involved with the rail tour industry for long time, become a regular face, show interest, become a steward and build up a picture of the industry, get to know the workings etc, then see what you think, I would imagine it is a tough business and several companies have gone bust in last few years.

 

[8stewartt]

If you are looking for a way into the rail industry why not apply for a job working for a TOC, FOC, Network Rail or perhaps one of the leasing companies. Whilst you will never be likely to earn mega money, on the whole you would earn a decent wage with career prospects. The industry is also heavily unionised and providing you are a member someone will look out for you in times of strife. I've never worked in the rail industry and have no desire to do so but I can see why many people follow that path.

Richard, I have applied for many jobs recently, have made it to S&T apprenticeship interviews, have past many assesments for local companies but then not been invited for interview, have filled in many application forms and heard nothing, put quite a lot of effort into it all, but still no success.

I wouldn't mind working for a charter company and gaining experience through them, ground operations, planning etc, the problem is the charter companies are mainly based on the opposite side of the country from me and I am not currently in a position to relocate.

What let's me down is im more of a computer, organising, planning person, have little mechanical and electrical engineering knowledge which lets me down for a lot of jobs.

There's only so many times you can fill the same application form in for the same TOC/FOC.

Cheers

 

[Clip]

Using a HST for charters is a niche market in a niche market and unless you have bottomless pockets for the first 5 years then I doubt its worth even investing anymore thought on the matter if Im honest. Sorry.

 

[Jamesb1974]

Good Afternoon All,

Been thinking about this for a while, but unsure of how easy it would be, what would be involved, would it make any money ect, so wondering if there was anyone on here who could help answer the below might be a never to happen dream but if I don't ask the question I will never know the answer.

How feasible would it be to lease/buy (and how much roughly?) an ex operational HST, a FGW one for example when they get replaced in a couple of years time, change the livery and run it as a charter company?

There are obviously people who enjoy HST/diesel trains, just the same as people do steam, who would enjoy a day out travelling on one? Could also be promoted to and chartered by football clubs as an individual train to do say Manchester Piccadilly to Wembley and return for Manchester United, or any other football club for that matter. Inclusive of bar/kitchen/dining car to do a premier dining service upon and also serve real ales etc. obviously having a cab at either end would make it easier for pathing reversal moves, where as current charters require to uncouple, find a path to run round etc.

Plus, if were to become successful, purchase the scot rail sleeper cars, which would allow charters to be run say paddington to penzance, stay over, penzance to scotland, stay over, scotland to euston etc.

If anyone cares to offer any information/thoughts on whether it would be possible, profitable, welcomed, how easy it is to find paths for such tours, how it could be started up etc?

Thanks

Don't forget that buying/leasing the thing is just the first step. You'd need to factor in;

Routine maintenance and examination costs (or the cost to a sub contractor).
Spares and consumables, including fuel, oil and other liquids (or the cost for them to be replaced by a sub-contractor).
Mainline certification costs.
Track access charges.
Costs for equipment to be maintained/upgraded to current Network rail specs.
Storage costs (where are you going to keep the thing?)
Insurance (including public liability).
Staff costs.

I don't know the figures, but I'd suggest that the cost of all the above (and more that I've missed out) would already seen you hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of pounds in the red before you've even taken a booking. Like I said, buying it is the easy part!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The real killer is getting a safety case and track access rights.

Unless you are really high end like the Scottish Hotel train circuit - it is a business that is quite high risk and dependant on "optional income and spend" - i/e prone to cutback in patronage in times of recession.

BR had at one time a bottomless pit of stock and crews who could be persuaded out for some overtime - and used avoidable costs on charters (cleaning , marketing and a bit of dosh for the "courier" - who was usually a clerical grade working a long day for some overtime - friends of mine did it !) - no track access costs !

Privatisation made it all much harder - note the failure of some operators in early days - very much a niche market.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Using a HST for charters is a niche market in a niche market and unless you have bottomless pockets for the first 5 years then I doubt its worth even investing anymore thought on the matter if Im honest. Sorry.

Hertfordshire Rail Tours ( as it then was - John Farrow's lot ) used to run HST tours more or less every Saturday during winter timetables 25 - 30 years ago and they proved very popular with the sightseeing public as well as with the enthusiasts.

Of course, the big difference was they were simply hiring in a spare set that was undiagrammed at weekends ( from the Midland Main Line allocation if I recall correctly ) - they weren't owning or maintaining it themselves. It's that difference that would be the killer factor once the HST is no longer in daily use.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Richard, I have applied for many jobs recently, have made it to S&T apprenticeship interviews, have past many assesments for local companies but then not been invited for interview, have filled in many application forms and heard nothing, put quite a lot of effort into it all, but still no success.

I wouldn't mind working for a charter company and gaining experience through them, ground operations, planning etc, the problem is the charter companies are mainly based on the opposite side of the country from me and I am not currently in a position to relocate.

What let's me down is im more of a computer, organising, planning person, have little mechanical and electrical engineering knowledge which lets me down for a lot of jobs.

There's only so many times you can fill the same application form in for the same TOC/FOC.

Cheers

Well surely you don't need much if any mechanical and electrical engineering knowledge to train to be a Guard or something along those lines? And I would imagine the same could be said for driver positions. Just saying that's all.

 

[OwlMan]

The follwing publications might help - available at the ORR website
starting-mainline-operations
http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0015/4434/starting-mainline-operations.pdf
licensing-guidance
http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0011/2216/licensing-guidance.pdf

Also look at other publications here
http://orr.gov.uk/publications/guidance