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Why are there no trains from Charing Cross - London Bridge to Ebsfleet International to link up with HS1 trains to the Kent coast.
(There used to be trains from Ebsfleet via south London to Waterloo, so there is/was a route)
Conclusion:
The HS1 junction is on the Kent side of Ebsfleet. Southeastern Javelin trains (with 3rd rail and overhead power) have run without passengers Victoria - HS1 - Ashford. Since then, the junction linking the Victoria-Sevenoaks line to HS1 may have been removed.
I know what you mean by 'adjacent', but for others who don't, the two stations are 250m apart as the crow flies but I would guess (I've never walked it) about 10 minutes walk apart.
I think you are remembering the first stage of HS1 when it finished at Southfleet and trains then used the conventional railway through Swanley, Bromley and Brixton to reach Waterloo (main line). Ebbsfleet station came later.
I know what you mean by 'adjacent', but for others who don't, the two stations are 250m apart as the crow flies but I would guess (I've never walked it) about 10 minutes walk apart.
I think you are remembering the first stage of HS1 when it finished at Southfleet and trains then used the conventional railway through Swanley, Bromley and Brixton to reach Waterloo (main line). Ebbsfleet station came later.
There isn't a route since Ebsfleet International is served only by HS1 and not by any 'conventional' tracks.
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I know what you mean by 'adjacent', but for others who don't, the two stations are 250m apart as the crow flies but I would guess (I've never walked it) about 10 minutes walk apart.
I've never walked it, but all comments I've seen suggest it's an unpleasant walk, rather than a well laid out and popular route.
Why would someone want to go from Charing Cross or London Bridge on the slow trains to Northfleet/Ebbsfleet to catch HS1 trains anyway, rather than just heading to St Pancras and catching HS1 all the way?
I know what you mean by 'adjacent', but for others who don't, the two stations are 250m apart as the crow flies but I would guess (I've never walked it) about 10 minutes walk apart.
There are a number of alternative routes via roads and public footpaths, but they're all lengthy and substandard, with some secluded, dark and downright scary. For years there was opposition from the station operator to improvements to pedestrian access between the stations and to the wider area due to the perception it was a poor neighbourhood and thus presumably crime-ridden and a risk to passengers' precious vehicles left in the endless car parks surrounding the station. And we all know that criminals clearly never, ever arrive to do harm in road vehicles of their own. Developers (who haven't actually developed anything in the immediate vicinity yet) have also opposed a proposed direct covered walkway claiming it would overlook their new properties (that don't exist yet). To cap it all, the stations are in different local authority areas with historically differing political allegiances so there is no single controlling mind to encourage better solutions. Things have improved a little I understand with the station operator finally acquiescing to a signed pedestrian route through one of the car parks (prior to this they would have had to walk in the vehicle carriageway through the entrance barrier). The original signed ped/cycle route with paving and dropped curbs at numerous road crossings was a whopping 1.7km (i.e. 1 mile) between the stations and very roundabout.
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Why would someone want to go from Charing Cross or London Bridge on the slow trains to Northfleet/Ebbsfleet to catch HS1 trains anyway, rather than just heading to St Pancras and catching HS1 all the way?
From central London, such a journey makes little sense, but for anyone heading to or from South East London and adjacent parts of Kent anywhere between Greenwich/Lewisham and Dartford, it could be logical and avoids a potentially crowded and expensive Zone 1 journey. Some parts of Dartford/Gravesend can be accessed direct from Ebbsfleet on the local frequent bus network, but using these for a station transfer from further afield via say Dartford adds cost and time compared to an idealised direct walking connection between Northfleet and Ebbsfleet.
There are a number of alternative routes via roads and public footpaths, but they're all lengthy and substandard, with some secluded, dark and downright scary. For years there was opposition from the station operator to improvements to pedestrian access between the stations and to the wider area due to the perception it was a poor neighbourhood and thus presumably crime-ridden and a risk to passengers' precious vehicles left in the endless car parks surrounding the station. And we all know that criminals clearly never, ever arrive to do harm in road vehicles of their own. Developers (who haven't actually developed anything in the immediate vicinity yet) have also opposed a proposed direct covered walkway claiming it would overlook their new properties (that don't exist yet). To cap it all, the stations are in different local authority areas with historically differing political allegiances so there is no single controlling mind to encourage better solutions. Things have improved a little I understand with the station operator finally acquiescing to a signed pedestrian route through one of the car parks (prior to this they would have had to walk in the vehicle carriageway through the entrance barrier). The original signed ped/cycle route with paving and dropped curbs at numerous road crossings was a whopping 1.7km (i.e. 1 mile) between the stations and very roundabout.
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From central London, such a journey makes little sense, but for anyone heading to or from South East London and adjacent parts of Kent anywhere between Greenwich/Lewisham and Dartford, it could be logical and avoids a potentially crowded and expensive Zone 1 journey. Some parts of Dartford/Gravesend can be accessed direct from Ebbsfleet on the local frequent bus network, but using these for a station transfer from further afield via say Dartford adds cost and time compared to an idealised direct walking connection between Northfleet and Ebbsfleet.
Yeah, providing local/regional links en route can equally produce patronage for a service
Not everything needs to be quantified by how many people will take this to London. This just compounds the London centric thinking had by central government and sometimes people interested in rail
I see, the spur off HS1 towards Waterloo is on the Kent side of Ebsfleet. So it couldn't be Charing Cross - Ebsfleet, it would have to be Charing Cross - Waterloo East - London Bridge - (via Swanley and HS1) - Ashford.
I see, the spur off HS1 towards Waterloo is on the Kent side of Ebsfleet. So it couldn't be Charing Cross - Ebsfleet, it would have to be Charing Cross - Waterloo East - London Bridge - (via Swanley and HS1) - Ashford.
There has never been a service to HS1 from Charing Cross. The only trains to use the link to HS1 south of Ebbsfleet were Eurostar services to/from Waterloo between 2003 and 2007.
Prior to HS1 Eurostar could run via multiple routes to reach the Channel Tunnel from Waterloo. The most common route was Waterloo - Herne Hill - Bromley South - Orpington - Ashford, but sometimes ran via Denmark Hill instead of Herne Hill, and sometimes ran via Maidstone East or Bat & Ball instead of Orpington.
There are a number of alternative routes via roads and public footpaths, but they're all lengthy and substandard, with some secluded, dark and downright scary. For years there was opposition from the station operator to improvements to pedestrian access between the stations and to the wider area due to the perception it was a poor neighbourhood and thus presumably crime-ridden and a risk to passengers' precious vehicles left in the endless car parks surrounding the station. And we all know that criminals clearly never, ever arrive to do harm in road vehicles of their own. Developers (who haven't actually developed anything in the immediate vicinity yet) have also opposed a proposed direct covered walkway claiming it would overlook their new properties (that don't exist yet). To cap it all, the stations are in different local authority areas with historically differing political allegiances so there is no single controlling mind to encourage better solutions. Things have improved a little I understand with the station operator finally acquiescing to a signed pedestrian route through one of the car parks (prior to this they would have had to walk in the vehicle carriageway through the entrance barrier). The original signed ped/cycle route with paving and dropped curbs at numerous road crossings was a whopping 1.7km (i.e. 1 mile) between the stations and very roundabout.
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From central London, such a journey makes little sense, but for anyone heading to or from South East London and adjacent parts of Kent anywhere between Greenwich/Lewisham and Dartford, it could be logical and avoids a potentially crowded and expensive Zone 1 journey. Some parts of Dartford/Gravesend can be accessed direct from Ebbsfleet on the local frequent bus network, but using these for a station transfer from further afield via say Dartford adds cost and time compared to an idealised direct walking connection between Northfleet and Ebbsfleet.
Thanks for this context. I've often wondered why it was so bad, and it's depressing to read. Especially considering there is an Ebbsfleet development 'board' which should have central oversight. A decent elevated walkway could see these stations actually considered one - and 'rail-side' from barriers and platform numbering. Perhaps one day, especially if Crossrail comes.
Prior to HS1 Eurostar could run via multiple routes to reach the Channel Tunnel from Waterloo. The most common route was Waterloo - Herne Hill - Bromley South - Orpington - Ashford, but sometimes ran via Denmark Hill instead of Herne Hill, and sometimes ran via Maidstone East or Bat & Ball instead of Orpington.
There were regular scheduled journeys via each of the alternative routes presumably to retain sufficient crew route knowledge for engineering and emergency diversions, but the vast majority of normal services went the quickest way via Tonbridge and Herne Hill initially. The Catford Loop (Denmark Hill) alternative was still possible after the first phase of HS1 opened with the temporary connection via Fawkham Junction, and a handful of trains continued to be scheduled that way for route knowledge.
There were regular scheduled journeys via each of the alternative routes presumably to retain sufficient crew route knowledge for engineering and emergency diversions, but the vast majority of normal services went the quickest way via Tonbridge and Herne Hill initially. The Catford Loop (Denmark Hill) alternative was still possible after the first phase of HS1 opened with the temporary connection via Fawkham Junction, and a handful of trains continued to be scheduled that way for route knowledge.
Wasn't route knowledge retained via Tonbridge for emergency diversions up until the switch to St Pancras too? Obviously anything via Tonbridge didn't join HS1 before Ashford, if at all.
The problem with the whole concept of running HS1 traffic into any historic Southern terminus is capacity east of Ebbsfleet due to different speed limits. While a number of Kent domestics turn off at Ebbsfleet for the Medway Towns, these don't all release a full path beyond as the line speed opens up from 230kph to 300kph soon after, allowing Eurostar trains to speed up, consuming any notional slower domestic paths immediately in front, so there's a limited capacity for more cl.395s east of there. West of Ebbsfleet all trains are limited to and capable of the same maximum speed so capacity is more optimised for the higher volume.
Ebbsfleet/Northfleet could plausibly become quite a major interchange hub with the Elizabeth Line proposal to reach the area via Dartford. Another idea for the Fawkham Junction route might be to diverge from the old line and loop a new route around the north of Ebbsfleet International to join the North Kent Line just to the west of Northfleet. Reinforcing the major interchange hub role, a limited stop service from Victoria might then be run to Gravesend and beyond via Northfleet/Ebbsfleet interchange.
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Wasn't route knowledge retained via Tonbridge for emergency diversions up until the switch to St Pancras too? Obviously anything via Tonbridge didn't join HS1 before Ashford, if at all.
Makes sense, while the trains retained compatibility with conventional network signalling and power. Once the full HS1 route was open to St Pancras, 3rd rail shoes were removed. I'm not sure exactly when/if AWS/TPWS equipment was removed, but French KVB transponders have been provided fairly recently through Ashford station so there's no requirement to switch into UK classic mode anywhere en route anymore.
The problem with the whole concept of running HS1 traffic into any historic Southern terminus is capacity east of Ebbsfleet due to different speed limits. While a number of Kent domestics turn off at Ebbsfleet for the Medway Towns, these don't all release a full path beyond as the line speed opens up from 230kph to 300kph soon after, allowing Eurostar trains to speed up, consuming any notional slower domestic paths immediately in front, so there's a limited capacity for more cl.195s east of there. West of Ebbsfleet all trains are limited to and capable of the same maximum speed so capacity is more optimised for the higher volume.
Although making the cl.395s ~300kph capable would likely have resulted in a heavier, less efficient train, not optimum for the frequent stopping patterns encountered on the classic lines traversed in East Kent. So perhaps a rational compromise based on the service they wanted to run. Alternatively, Eurostars might be artificially restricted to 230kph!
Although making the cl.395s ~300kph capable would likely have resulted in a heavier, less efficient train, not optimum for the frequent stopping patterns encountered on the classic lines traversed in East Kent. So perhaps a rational compromise based on the service they wanted to run. Alternatively, Eurostars might be artificially restricted to 230kph!
Indeed the 395s are an extraordinary train really, 140mph on HS1 then continuing on the historic 3rd rail network. Even the door layout is a compromise, the single leaf doors (with that complicated Hitachi seal) do slow things down when they are serving the busy Medway towns stations, where they are effectively just regular trains.
HS1 only goes to 300kph south of Ebbsfleet, so for the extra cost of 70kph you'd only be able to use it for half the trains on less than half the route.
They'd need clearance into Charing Cross for starters, and as mentioned Fawkham Junction has been severed. Given that Tonbridge-Ashford is 100mph anyway, the benefit of this would be limited but the problems caused would be much bigger.
It could in theory be restored yes, but you won't be running trains next week. Given that freight can run through to Ripple Lane and domestic services from Southern Region terminals won't run onto HS1 the Fawkham Junction link should just be lifted and materials recovered. Save ourselves the costs of each junction.
Really? It would have to have been a Javelin and AFAIK they've never worked to the southern set of London terminals (I don't think they've got route clearance even). No other SE stock has TVM-430 signalling. Maintenance trains may have continued using it for a while but it was turned into sidings when the withdrawal of the e300/Class 373 stock started.
Really? It would have to have been a Javelin and AFAIK they've never worked to the southern set of London terminals (I don't think they've got route clearance even). No other SE stock has TVM-430 signalling. Maintenance trains may have continued using it for a while but it was turned into sidings when the withdrawal of the e300/Class 373 stock started.
There’s never been a parliamentary service, the last passenger service will have been the last Eurostar to/from Waterloo.
395s utilised the line on route refreshers for a number of years. These ran Ashford - Victoria via Fawkham Junction. I’m not sure when they stopped running, but there’s a photo of one of these moves at Victoria dating from 2013 on Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/136510631@N08/24871883991
There’s never been a parliamentary service, the last passenger service will have been the last Eurostar to/from Waterloo.
395s utilised the line on route refreshers for a number of years. These ran Ashford - Victoria via Fawkham Junction. I’m not sure when they stopped running, but there’s a photo of one of these moves at Victoria dating from 2013 on Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/136510631@N08/24871883991
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