Charging for bikes and large suitcases

[Failed Unit]

Splitting from the annoyance thread. It appears some people don’t like bikes on trains as the owners have not paid for them.

I wouldn’t mind paying as long as it meant that if I was booked on trains a, b, c I would be certain to travel on them. At the moment I look for trains that I know have low loadings so I can hopefully complete my journey. I do sometimes get caught out such as on football match days. Sometimes you have a lot of bikes show up. (But the charge will at least ensure the reserved ones get on).

But then should the same charge apply to large suitcases? If everyone on an Azuma had a standard size suitcase - these trains would not be enough space on London -Edinburgh peak services so should rail continue its fight to provide worse conditions for passengers then Ryanair?

If you book in advance what happens if the train is still too full? I would be even more annoyed if I book a bike and still get refused. TOCs will need to provide dedicated space that can’t be used by passengers for other things such as push chairs. Would they want to? It works on the Azuma as it is dead space. On buses I hear many conflicts where wheelchairs can’t get in because of pushchairs.

For me £5 per bike would be OK. But only if it the space was certain. Even if I got a refund I would be very unhappy if the space was taken up by suitcases. What are people’s views? Don’t think suitcases should be charged it is one thing that gives rail an advantage. Some do take too much but normally balanced by people taking nothing.

 

[AM9]

Splitting from the annoyance thread. It appears some people don’t like bikes on trains as the owners have not paid for them.

I wouldn’t mind paying as long as it meant that if I was booked on trains a, b, c I would be certain to travel on them. At the moment I look for trains that I know have low loadings so I can hopefully complete my journey. I do sometimes get caught out such as on football match days. Sometimes you have a lot of bikes show up. (But the charge will at least ensure the reserved ones get on).

But then should the same charge apply to large suitcases? If everyone on an Azuma had a standard size suitcase - these trains would not be enough space on London -Edinburgh peak services so should rail continue its fight to provide worse conditions for passengers then Ryanair?

If you book in advance what happens if the train is still too full? I would be even more annoyed if I book a bike and still get refused. TOCs will need to provide dedicated space that can’t be used by passengers for other things such as push chairs. Would they want to? It works on the Azuma as it is dead space. On buses I hear many conflicts where wheelchairs can’t get in because of pushchairs.

For me £5 per bike would be OK. But only if it the space was certain. Even if I got a refund I would be very unhappy if the space was taken up by suitcases. What are people’s views? Don’t think suitcases should be charged it is one thing that gives rail an advantage. Some do take too much but normally balanced by people taking nothing.

For once, I agree with you absolutely. There are frequent moans here about cycles on trains, some of them about boorish cyclists who have no respect for anybody but the elves. Many of the posts here are though from self-centred passengers who just have a hang-up about cyclists. They are the ones who should be very careful what they wish for. A self-entitled cyclist may well be a pita, but a cyclist who has paid and booked a place on a train will be a whole lot more entitled, and heaven help those who think that they can abuse provision specially provided for cyclists.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think this is why the railway doesn't like to charge - a consideration (payment) means a contract is formed...

 

[radamfi]

Electric bike charging would be a good idea. You can find that in many secure bike parks in the Netherlands.

 

[Failed Unit]

I do sometimes wonder if the railway doesn’t miss a trick. Events such as London - Brighton cycle race. Use class 325 and charge say £10 per bike. The TOC would get revenue from the passenger on a normal train. But not knowing how much it would cost to operate a x car 325, on a Sunday no idea if it would make a profit.

 

[Failed Unit]

I think this is why the railway doesn't like to charge - a consideration (payment) means a contract is formed...

Very true. The situation is bad now as it is inconsistent. Reservations compulsory on some routes. But not possible on others. At least dedicated space they are more likely be able to provide said space. The only problems I have seen in LNER is when a HST turns up instead of a mk4. Annoying but they normally put you on the next train.

 

[PeterC]

Time to bring back the guard's van?

 

[sprunt]

What exactly do you mean by "large" suitcases?

I don't think that suitcases and bicycles are comparable when it comes to carriage on a train (or any other mode of transport). It's entirely natural and understandable that people travelling, especially when travelling distances that lend themselves to overnight stays, are going to want to take some luggage with them, if only so they don't have to wear the same clothes for a number of days. The same simply can't be said about bikes. There's a reasonable argument to be made that above a certain size of luggage then it's reasonable to impose an extra charge, but I'd say that's definitely at a larger size than a budget airline would impose an extra charge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What exactly do you mean by "large" suitcases?

A reasonable definition would be those that don't fit in the overheads (give or take Turbostars, Electrostars and Voyagers which have uselessly small overheads suitable only for very small day bags and coats). However I don't think this is the right way for the railway to go.

That said, it would definitely be beneficial to encourage a family of 4 travelling together to bring 4 hand-luggage-sized bags rather than perhaps 2 very large ones - they are much easier to stow.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Any such scheme for making cycles more difficult and/or expensive goes against certain initiatives that are only just beginning to take form in certain areas - namely to emphasise "active travel" (i.e. where all or part of the end-to-end trip is made by human power). Ultimately, people rarely travel from station to station; they travel from somewhere away from a station to somewhere else away from a station. Nationally, we'd ideally be making such trips easier and more attractive and not the opposite, so as to discourage (say) car use, whether for the entire trip or to/from station/s.

As to luggage - rather like proposals to "ban" non-folding pushchairs (etc) from buses - it's actually counter-commercial. Every person faced with an excess charge (or lack of space, actually) that consequently chooses to drive or take a taxi, etc., has abstracted revenue and contributed to congestion and pollution. We can't compare the activities of ("cheap") airlines; typically most air journeys cannot realistically be made by other means. Train travel can - and already is, to too great an extent.

 

[AM9]

Any such scheme for making cycles more difficult and/or expensive goes against certain initiatives that are only just beginning to take form in certain areas - namely to emphasise "active travel" (i.e. where all or part of the end-to-end trip is made by human power). Ultimately, people rarely travel from station to station; they travel from somewhere away from a station to somewhere else away from a station. Nationally, we'd ideally be making such trips easier and more attractive and not the opposite, so as to discourage (say) car use, whether for the entire trip or to/from station/s.

As to luggage - rather like proposals to "ban" non-folding pushchairs (etc) from buses - it's actually counter-commercial. Every person faced with an excess charge (or lack of space, actually) that consequently chooses to drive or take a taxi, etc., has abstracted revenue and contributed to congestion and pollution. We can't compare the activities of ("cheap") airlines; typically most air journeys cannot realistically be made by other means. Train travel can - and already is, to too great an extent.

Abstracting revenue is only true where the business goes elsewhere and in the case of trains, there is empty space. The problem with trains (and buses) is often that the abuse of rules about dedicated space for e.g. wheelchairs means that those entitled to travel cannot. The railway is a public transport service firstly and it only the obsession of successive Conservative governments with competition, (or profit ) that causes posters here to bring such matters of loss of profit up as more important than providing a service.

 

[AM9]

A reasonable definition would be those that don't fit in the overheads (give or take Turbostars, Electrostars and Voyagers which have uselessly small overheads suitable only for very small day bags and coats). However I don't think this is the right way for the railway to go. ...

So right. If Siemens can produce trains with adequate overhead storage, then it is a failure of the procurers when Bombardier supplies units with a glove shelf instead. Such a great british company they are.

 

[Harpers Tate]

....service.....

....which (IMO) is only a service if it serves - and that should include making provision for certain belongings. For "services" that in whole or in part take people to places away to stay (which includes airports) that means luggage. And for people who are (say) travelling to work or leisure that may mean a bike. It is in no way advantageous to anyone (except those whose money would be involved for it to be otherwise - so the government mostly) to restrict carriage (by lack of space or by excess fees) of these things.

 

[AM9]

....which (IMO) is only a service if it serves - and that should include making provision for certain belongings. For "services" that in whole or in part take people to places away to stay (which includes airports) that means luggage. And for people who are (say) travelling to work or leisure that may mean a bike. It is in no way advantageous to anyone (except those whose money would be involved for it to be otherwise - so the government mostly) to restrict carriage (by lack of space or by excess fees) of these things.

If TOCs are unable to provide sufficient route capacity, there is no point in allowing self-entitled passengers to abuse what space there is with large push-chairs, excesses of baggage taking seat and standing space and even cycles blocking doors, gangways etc.. The primary purpose is to carry passengers, one push chair and it's owner can take more space than five standing passengers, who would the have to wait for the next train., - which if it happened enough times, they might change mode. So if revenue is so important to you, that would be extraction, i.e. one passenger paying and their passenger displacing push chair, stealing the potential profit of another four fares.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Except in specific area (typified by the peak flows to(AM) and from(PM) London - i.e. where 12 coach trains run nose to tail, all rammed full), the network is rarely running anything like at capacity. In its simplest form, applicable to virtually all the rest of the network, greater capacity means nothing more than trains big enough for purpose, not necessarily more of them. Where "purpose" extends to include certain belongings.

 

[Failed Unit]

For me the only reason I take the bike on the train is to get to my end destination. It is 5 miles away so too far to walk. Alternatives get a taxi. But that isn’t really as good for the environment. If I could hire a bike at my destination I wouldn’t be bothered about taking my bike with me at all.

 

[AM9]

Except in specific area (typified by the peak flows to(AM) and from(PM) London - i.e. where 12 coach trains run nose to tail, all rammed full), the network is rarely running anything like at capacity. In its simplest form, applicable to virtually all the rest of the network, greater capacity means nothing more than trains big enough for purpose, not necessarily more of them. Where "purpose" extends to include certain belongings.

There are plenty of trains that don't have enough room for cycles or large unfolded push chairs running between the peaks. It's those times that the TOCs want to fill and often they do.

 

[duffield]

...
But then should the same charge apply to large suitcases? If everyone on an Azuma had a standard size suitcase - these trains would not be enough space on London -Edinburgh peak services so should rail continue its fight to provide worse conditions for passengers then Ryanair?
...

Charging for large suitcases etc. might sound plausible/attractive in theory but is a nightmare in practice. For it to be enforced means everyone with any luggage would have to go through some sort of process where their luggage is measured and then excessive luggage charged for. This would require queuing facilities and staff for this purpose at considerable expensive, and the logistics of doing this in a timely way at rush hour would be horrendous - imagine Euston on a Friday evening with the mixture of commuters and long distance travellers. It could only work with the end of the turn-up and go railway, compulsory seat reservations, and the separation of commuter and long distance services, with 'check in' required for the latter. And as per previous discussions, there just isn't the capacity to do this unless you force loads of people off the railways and onto the roads.

 

[Rhinojerry]

Charging for large suitcases etc. might sound plausible/attractive in theory but is a nightmare in practice. For it to be enforced means everyone with any luggage would have to go through some sort of process where their luggage is measured and then excessive luggage charged for. This would require queuing facilities and staff for this purpose at considerable expensive, and the logistics of doing this in a timely way at rush hour would be horrendous - imagine Euston on a Friday evening with the mixture of commuters and long distance travellers. It could only work with the end of the turn-up and go railway, compulsory seat reservations, and the separation of commuter and long distance services, with 'check in' required for the latter. And as per previous discussions, there just isn't the capacity to do this unless you force loads of people off the railways and onto the roads.

Duffield,yes me and the lad had to go through that last year going from Barcelona to Perpignan on TGV.not as strict as airport in fairness.