Charging eScooters on a train?

[AM9]

Maybe getting to and from some of the more rural stations by e-scooter is a growing trend hence ScotRail catering for this market?

There's a world of difference between an e-bike and an e-scooter, starting with the fact that an e-bike is legal on UK roads whereas an e-scooter (as in one that a person might take with them on a train) definitely isn't.

 

[AlterEgo]

There was a story in the news a few years ago - a passenger was found kicking off at train staff, and subsequently the transport police, after having been asked to remove their mobile charger from one of those ”not for public use” sockets. Said passenger went running to the media claiming that they had been arrested for ”abstraction of electricity”.

The case was dropped because Graham Chapman walked on set and said “no no, you can’t finish this sketch, it’s too silly”.

 

[D365]

Don't think it's been mentioned here, but the ScotRail 153s have sockets provided explicitly for the purpose of charging e-bikes. Is that the forward-looking approach?

Charging capability depends entirely on what the onboard auxiliary supply is specified capable of. If the BS1363 power outlets are only designed with a 3 amp maximum current, as is the case on the majority of rail vehicles, then that limits the charging capability.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course it is, encouraging e-scooters is good for the country, and good for the railway, as it reduces car usage.

Absolutely Plus they take up less space on trains than even the king of folding bikes, the Brompton. (Longer, but you'd get more stacked up in a given area if folded).

Many in the rail community think things should be like the 1950s with steam engines pulling pulman dinning coaches while staring out of the window at the boys in shorts waving their flat caps. If the railway has a future it must be as part of an integrated low carbon transport solution, and e-scooters + e-bikes are a big part of that.

The hate for e-scooters is wider than just people reminiscing for the past, unfortunately. There have been problems relating to them, but most such problems are similar to those the same people would cause with bicycles, and are generally caused by a lack of "on the ground" policing of both those modes. They do need regulation of some kind (top speed, which I'd set at 10mph/16km/h rather than the current 13mph, plus battery safety), which would be best done by making it an offence to sell or import one which didn't have UKCA approval with those restrictions rather than the fairly difficult to enforce "private land only" thing.

Personally, I've used the trial hire scooters a number of times, they are a convenient taxi substitute with lower COVID risk, and cheaper to have sitting around in case they are needed than taxis, not to mention less polluting and occupying less road space. I can't see a need to own one at the moment, but if I was doing a commute that was a fair way from the station at my destination it is certainly something I would consider.

 

[AM9]

... Of course it is, encouraging e-scooters is good for the country, and good for the railway, as it reduces car usage.

However you might seek to justify people using unauthorised power outlets (or even misusing purpose built ones), e-scooters are not at the stage of electrical safety or use safety that they should be allowed anywhere near a potential supply on an in-service train. There was a case four years ago where the battery of a cordless drill being carried by a passenger caught fire near Dalston Kingsland, the passengers self-evacuated and despite the close proximity to the platforms there were some injuries. Now most power tool batteries are properly designed and incidents like that are comparatively rare, but had that been a bit further down the line in 3rd rail territory and not near a station the outcome would have been a lot worse. The availability of cheap (mainly Chinese) lithium battery-powered devices where little if any attention has been paid to the risks of failure would make such occurences more likely so why should the many be put at risk for the convenience of a few selfish people?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Charging capability depends entirely on what the onboard auxiliary supply is specified capable of. If the BS1363 power outlets are only designed with a 3 amp maximum current, as is the case on the majority of rail vehicles, then that limits the charging capability.

Though not beyond what most e-bike chargers would require. E-bike batteries are similar to large laptop batteries, nothing like EVs, and so 3A would in most cases be plenty. Don't confuse the DC current output with the AC current input, they will be vastly different. For instance, the 2A USB3 iPad charger actually only requires 0.5A at the input.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Dec 2021 ==

I've seen a socket on a 350/2 (I think a /2 - the ones without sockets at seats) which doesn't look like a normal accessible one - by one of the the cab doors, under the seat.

I almost posted that but thought I was going mad. I can't remember if they say "not for passenger use" on them or not. I've certainly seen a passenger use one.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Dec 2021 ==

@AM9 said: (sorry, the quoting was messy)

However you might seek to justify people using unauthorised power outlets (or even misusin purpose built ones), e-scooters are not at the stage of electrical safety or use safety that they should be allowed anywhere near a potential supply on an in-service train. There was a case four years ago where the battery of a cordless drill being carried by a passenger caught fire near Dalston Kingsland, the passengers self-evacuated and despite the close proximity to the platforms there were some injuries. Now most power tool batteries are properly designed and incidents like that are comparatively rare, bat had that been a bit further down the line in 3rd rail territory and not near a station the outcome would have been a lot worse. The availability of cheap (mainly Chinese) lithium battery-powered devices where little if any attention has been paid to the risks of failure would make such occurences more likely so why should the many be put at risk for the convenience of a few selfish people?

Yes, this is an issue, though it needs to be sorted out by regulation of sale of e-scooters rather than the toothless use legislation we have now, so the unsafe Chinese rubbish is not sold here. That would be a reasonable justification for an explicit ban for now, as TfL have imposed, but long term, once they are legal as privately owned devices (which they will be, sorry naysayers) they do need to be carried to give the best benefits, and if they consume hardly any power why not allow them to be charged?

 

[AM9]

Yes, this is an issue, though it needs to be sorted out by regulation of sale of e-scooters rather than the toothless use legislation we have now, so the unsafe Chinese rubbish is not sold here. That would be a reasonable justification for an explicit ban for now, as TfL have imposed, but long term, once they are legal as privately owned devices (which they will be, sorry naysayers) they do need to be carried to give the best benefits, and if they consume hardly any power why not allow them to be charged?

Meanwhile, they are effectively not "legal as privately owned devices" in terms of somebody carrying one onto a train as part of their journey and there is consequerntially no valid argument for them needing to be charged during that journey as they won't have lost any discernable charge from when they left their previous use 'on private land' to when they arrive for their next use 'on private land'. If anybody wants to post about one of the legal rental scooters being charged on a train, that is:

a) very unlikely because they are charged at their docking stations/by the operators​

b) would constitute a business activity where the railway would expressly forbid unauthorised use of railway facilites​

So until the Government of the day enacts a legal framework for free (approved) scooter use on any public land, the railway is probably best advised to ban their carriage unless the battery is removed as has been stated for Scotrail rules of travel. The fact that TfL has banned them is a perfectly adequate precedent for other TOCs to follow which if an accident occurs on the system, will be ushered in very quickly.

 

[miami]

However you might seek to justify people using unauthorised power outlets (or even misusing purpose built ones)

The quote here was "provided explicitly for the purpose of charging e-bikes"

By all means require better regulations on batteries no matter where they are used or charged, but if you want to stop people using sockets, simply make them require a key to operate. Want to limit their charging, put a current limit on them (3A breaker for instance). The modern world is one where a socket in a public space is usable by the public.

You're far more likely to see a shonky charger or mobile phone catching fire, or indeed somebody smoking, than to see an e-scooter catch fire on a train, by all means ban them. In fact why not ban passengers completely, would certainly same the country some money if we shut the entire network down.

 

[AM9]

The quote here was "provided explicitly for the purpose of charging e-bikes"

By all means require better regulations on batteries no matter where they are used or charged, but if you want to stop people using sockets, simply make them require a key to operate. Want to limit their charging, put a current limit on them (3A breaker for instance). The modern world is one where a socket in a public space is usable by the public.

You're far more likely to see a shonky charger or mobile phone catching fire, or indeed somebody smoking, than to see an e-scooter catch fire on a train, by all means ban them. In fact why not ban passengers completely, would certainly same the country some money if we shut the entire network down.

Well TfL manages to run services without scooter or any device charging and (pandemic excepted) has little problem filling the trains.

 

[Jim the Jim]

Water is in far shorter supply on a train than electricity, but I don't think anyone would be calling it theft if I filled my drinks bottle from.the tap by the toilet.

 

[O L Leigh]

Water is in far shorter supply on a train than electricity, but I don't think anyone would be calling it theft if I filled my drinks bottle from.the tap by the toilet.

Please do help yourself. But do be aware that the water carried by trains for use in the toilets is not potable.

 

[Dai Corner]

Please do help yourself. But do be aware that the water carried by trains for use in the toilets is not potable.

There's usually a notice near the tap stating this. Anyone drinking it does so at their own risk.

 

[D365]

Though not beyond what most e-bike chargers would require. E-bike batteries are similar to large laptop batteries, nothing like EVs, and so 3A would in most cases be plenty. Don't confuse the DC current output with the AC current input, they will be vastly different. For instance, the 2A USB3 iPad charger actually only requires 0.5A at the input.

Correct. Refurbishment programmes such as Project Aurora (Class 375/377 refurb) have to take this into account when it comes to fitting passenger electrical supplies.

 

[miami]

For instance, the 2A USB3 iPad charger actually only requires 0.5A at the input.

Assuming that's 2A at 12V, or 25W, I'd hope it's using far less than 0.5A at the input, otherwise you'll have have a really hot charger!!

 

[XAM2175]

There's usually a notice near the tap stating this. Anyone drinking it does so at their own risk.

Which I suspect is the point - nobody will be going after them for 'abstraction of water' but it's not vastly different to plugging your phone's charger into a socket marked 'for cleaner's equipment only' except in that one might make you quite ill and the other might merely let the magic smoke escape from your charger.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Assuming that's 2A at 12V, or 25W, I'd hope it's using far less than 0.5A at the input, otherwise you'll have have a really hot charger!!

I actually can't read the text on it, it's so small, so I Googled it. I was actually surprised the difference wasn't bigger, so maybe I got it wrong.

 

[AM9]

I actually can't read the text on it, it's so small, so I Googled it. I was actually surprised the difference wasn't bigger, so maybe I got it wrong.

The 0.5A for the ac input is the maximum that will be drawn, - probably as a switch-on surge on the lowest voltage e.g. 115v -10% plus a small safety margin. On 230v, the input current will be a little over a half the 115v value. The mean power will be around 120% of the output plus a residual amount for the circuit operation depending on how honest the power-factor is.