Charged Heathrow Express when using TFL Rail

[matt_world2004]

Well what a ridiculous policy. Do you think their accounts department detach the customer detail from all the invoices they have processed after 8 weeks?

Not really it is to protect the privacy of the users and iirc it was one of the conditions that the mayoral decision placed on TfL when introducing oyster to allay privacy fears.

 

[Taunton]

Not really it is to protect the privacy of the users and iirc it was one of the conditions that the mayoral decision placed on TfL when introducing oyster to allay privacy fears.

What privacy fears? I don't know if it's some sort of virtue signalling that led to this - if I go to British Airways I can see details of every flight I've taken with them back to the start of the system, kept secure and private. If I go to Visa I can see every credit card transaction I've ever done with them, kept secure and private. What is different about Oyster after 56 days? Now that they have Oyster Top Up, where they just help themselves to your bank account when your Oyster balance gets low, they should surely be an ability to justify what they are charging beyond the original Oyster approach.

 

[MikeWh]

Well I don't know if it's some sort of virtue signalling that led to this - if I go to British Airways I can see details of every flight I've taken with them back to the start of the system, kept secure and private. If I go to Visa I can see every credit card transaction I've ever done with them, kept secure and private. What is different about Oyster after 56 days?

Well for a start, individual journey history on an Oyster card is not related to debits from a credit/bank card. If you really want to know the reasons why, you might have better luck if you contacted the information commissioner. 56 days is probably deemed a reasonable time to keep information of this sort. In contrast, if you use a contactless card or device you can access the journey history for up to a year because it is justification for making a specific debit on your bank or credit account.

Also, I'd like to know how you can view every transaction on a credit card by going to the umbrella organisation. I think it highly unlikely that Visa itself can give you any such information. My credit card allows me to access statements going back a year online, but I have to log in to the actual credit card site to get it. Visa would probably laugh if I asked them.

 

[matt_world2004]

What privacy fears? I don't know if it's some sort of virtue signalling that led to this - if I go to British Airways I can see details of every flight I've taken with them back to the start of the system, kept secure and private. If I go to Visa I can see every credit card transaction I've ever done with them, kept secure and private. What is different about Oyster after 56 days? Now that they have Oyster Top Up, where they just help themselves to your bank account when your Oyster balance gets low, they should surely be an ability to justify what they are charging beyond the original Oyster approach.

Since the records can be requested by the police and tax authorities there are some very sound privacy fears on that.

 

[Hadders]

Large organisations generally do not have a good track record of keeping data secure. 56 days Oyster history sounds about right for me.

Part of my work sometimes involves dealing with CCTV and access control requests for some of our locations. CCTV footage is routinely kept for 31 days and then erased. If there is a specific incident or investigation then it can be kept for longer. A request to keep the data for longer has to be for a substantial reason. I once had a senior manager ask for access control records to be kept for a year 'just in case...'. They weren't kept...

 

[VauxhallandI]

What privacy fears? I don't know if it's some sort of virtue signalling that led to this - if I go to British Airways I can see details of every flight I've taken with them back to the start of the system, kept secure and private. If I go to Visa I can see every credit card transaction I've ever done with them, kept secure and private. What is different about Oyster after 56 days? Now that they have Oyster Top Up, where they just help themselves to your bank account when your Oyster balance gets low, they should surely be an ability to justify what they are charging beyond the original Oyster approach.

BA tend to share your information with anyone who fancies it...

 

[philthetube]

What privacy fears? I don't know if it's some sort of virtue signalling that led to this - if I go to British Airways I can see details of every flight I've taken with them back to the start of the system, kept secure and private. If I go to Visa I can see every credit card transaction I've ever done with them, kept secure and private. What is different about Oyster after 56 days? Now that they have Oyster Top Up, where they just help themselves to your bank account when your Oyster balance gets low, they should surely be an ability to justify what they are charging beyond the original Oyster approach.

Do British Airways keep your stuff as securely as Easyjet then?

 

[TheGrew]

I wonder if the system employed at Schiphol for the express service (certainly in the Rotterdam direction) where you tap an additional reader for a fare uplift would work.

 

[packermac]

What privacy fears? I don't know if it's some sort of virtue signalling that led to this - if I go to British Airways I can see details of every flight I've taken with them back to the start of the system, kept secure and private. If I go to Visa I can see every credit card transaction I've ever done with them, kept secure and private. What is different about Oyster after 56 days? Now that they have Oyster Top Up, where they just help themselves to your bank account when your Oyster balance gets low, they should surely be an ability to justify what they are charging beyond the original Oyster approach.

Many may not agree with you including the regulators

British Airways (BA) has been fined £20 million by the UK's data protection authority over data security failings which enabled unauthorised access to be obtained to personal and payment card information relating to more than 400,000 of its customers.

 

[35B]

Many may not agree with you including the regulators

British Airways (BA) has been fined £20 million by the UK's data protection authority over data security failings which enabled unauthorised access to be obtained to personal and payment card information relating to more than 400,000 of its customers.

While BA were culpable in this, the failings were of a sort ("Magecart") that intervened between the site visitor and the BA site. That doesn't say anything one way or the other about the security of BA's databases, or what they do about the data..

 

[Taunton]

None of this explains why it is OK for TfL to hold the travel data for 8 weeks, but not beyond, while holding your personal and payment card detail for ever just like BA.

Furthermore, the issues described at airlines were not at organisations who unilaterally charge your debit card account and then say, when an issue arises, they don't have the information. I'm sure if the various utilities who direct debit customers did overcharging, and then when it came to light said it was beyond 8 weeks ago that they did this so they had scrubbed the information and thus any chance of proving a refund, their regulator would have their guts for garters.

The key issue is of course that nobody at TfL ever envisaged their ticketing system could get into such a programming mess as this.

 

[MikeWh]

None of this explains why it is OK for TfL to hold the travel data for 8 weeks, but not beyond, while holding your personal and payment card detail for ever just like BA.

TfL agreed with the ICO and others that a reasonable length of time to keep Oyster journey history is 8 weeks. Financial transaction history needs to be kept for longer, but are you really saying that BA could see details of a flight taken 20 years ago?

Furthermore, the issues described at airlines were not at organisations who unilaterally charge your debit card account and then say, when an issue arises, they don't have the information. I'm sure if the various utilities who direct debit customers did overcharging, and then when it came to light said it was beyond 8 weeks ago that they did this so they had scrubbed the information and thus any chance of proving a refund, their regulator would have their guts for garters.

I think the root of the confusion is that with Oyster there are two separate transactions. Firstly you have topups where money is transferred from a financial account to your Oyster card. Details of these transactions are retained in line with other financial transactions, over a year but probably not for eternity as you seem to suggest. Then you have the journeys which use the PAYG credit pot on the Oyster card. These details are kept for 8 weeks as agreed with various regulatory organisations.

The key issue is of course that nobody at TfL ever envisaged their ticketing system could get into such a programming mess as this.

They may possibly be guilty of under-estimating the ability of government to design unworkable systems.

 

[packermac]

While BA were culpable in this, the failings were of a sort ("Magecart") that intervened between the site visitor and the BA site. That doesn't say anything one way or the other about the security of BA's databases, or what they do about the data..

Not the first time though, just the first fine I believe.

 

[kingston]

I had a really awkward situation last week when I travelled again.

Despite the early hour I got there 15 minutes before the train and explained at length the issue to the chap on the gateline, who insisted I had to touch-in at the barriers in front of platform 4. Would not budge. TFL previously insisted I would not be refunded again as I had 'touched in for the heathrow express'. I did ask if I could look for a 'standalone reader' but he wouldn't let me through to check.

With less than 2 minutes left until the train left I had to jump the barriers and get on the train.

At Heathrow I had the same issue. I'd have happily paid for the fare then and there if there was a way of deducting it correctly from my Oyster card, but of course there wasn't at that stage and would have resulted in a maximum cash fare, so another circumvention of the gateline needed.

Really not my preferred option nor a stress I wanted at 5am in the morning... but the only one remaining given TFL and GWR's stance.

I have to do this journey every 2 weeks, what's the chances of them resolving? I would much rather just pay the correct fare than risk running into a RPI.

I explained it at both gatelines so they have all the information necessary to escalate and resolve.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Nov 2020 ==

Are you really saying that BA could see details of a flight taken 20 years ago?

If you're a BAEC member, absolutely - they dug out flights from decades ago to tot up 'Lifetime Tier Points' when it was introduced. I believe it also extends to non-BAEC members as well, there's a very interesting thread over on FlyerTalk re: SARs to BA.

 

[Horizon22]

I had a really awkward situation last week when I travelled again.

Despite the early hour I got there 15 minutes before the train and explained at length the issue to the chap on the gateline, who insisted I had to touch-in at the barriers in front of platform 4. Would not budge. TFL previously insisted I would not be refunded again as I had 'touched in for the heathrow express'. I did ask if I could look for a 'standalone reader' but he wouldn't let me through to check.

With less than 2 minutes left until the train left I had to jump the barriers and get on the train.

At Heathrow I had the same issue. I'd have happily paid for the fare then and there if there was a way of deducting it correctly from my Oyster card, but of course there wasn't at that stage and would have resulted in a maximum cash fare, so another circumvention of the gateline needed.

Really not my preferred option nor a stress I wanted at 5am in the morning... but the only one remaining given TFL and GWR's stance.

I have to do this journey every 2 weeks, what's the chances of them resolving? I would much rather just pay the correct fare than risk running into a RPI.

I explained it at both gatelines so they have all the information necessary to escalate and resolve.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Nov 2020 ==



If you're a BAEC member, absolutely - they dug out flights from decades ago to tot up 'Lifetime Tier Points' when it was introduced. I believe it also extends to non-BAEC members as well, there's a very interesting thread over on FlyerTalk re: SARs to BA.

You could theoretically tap in at the overbridge at Paddington and then go to the correct platform if the gates are open. Not sure they are manned in the early morning.

Anyway sounds like your experience is worthy of a complaint to GWR who could hopefully rectify the issue with training/guidance to staff.

 

[Taunton]

TFL previously insisted I would not be refunded again as I had 'touched in for the heathrow express'.

What ever authority do they have to state this? It's like some second-rate headmasters' attitude.

 

[matt_world2004]

Do you make a regular journey to Heathrow at that time. You might be better doing the journey on a one day travel card or a Heathrow commuter ticket.

 

[packermac]

Do you make a regular journey to Heathrow at that time. You might be better doing the journey on a one day travel card or a Heathrow commuter ticket.

I just looked at the TFL fare finder for contactless and it does not offer Heathrow Terms 2 & 3 or 4 as a rail station only Underground. I thought Oyster was now accepted on what was Heathrow Connect or is it still only to Hayes and Harlington? Few years since Hayes was my local station.

 

[plugwash]

"Heathrow Terminals 2 & 3 Rail Station" "Heathrow Terminal 4 Rail Station" "Heathrow Terminal 5 Rail Station" all were in the list when I tried just now, though I had to type a fair bit before they popped up. The underground stations certainly appeared earlier.

 

[matt_world2004]

I just looked at the TFL fare finder for contactless and it does not offer Heathrow Terms 2 & 3 or 4 as a rail station only Underground. I thought Oyster was now accepted on what was Heathrow Connect or is it still only to Hayes and Harlington? Few years since Hayes was my local station.

Oyster and contactless is accepted to Heathrow rail. The fares approximately half of the any time day travel card fare iirc

 

[plugwash]

I thought Oyster was now accepted on what was Heathrow Connect

It is now accepted on both TFL rail and Heathrow express,however the fares are vastly different and which fare you get charged depends on which gate/reader you use at paddington. This can lead to mis-faring as is the whole subject of this thread (presumablly mis-faring sometimes also happens in the other direction with people getting charged the TFL rail fares when they have used heathrow express).

 

[MikeWh]

I just looked at the TFL fare finder for contactless and it does not offer Heathrow Terms 2 & 3 or 4 as a rail station only Underground. I thought Oyster was now accepted on what was Heathrow Connect or is it still only to Hayes and Harlington? Few years since Hayes was my local station.

"Heathrow Terminals 2 & 3 Rail Station" "Heathrow Terminal 4 Rail Station" "Heathrow Terminal 5 Rail Station" all were in the list when I tried just now, though I had to type a fair bit before they popped up. The underground stations certainly appeared earlier.

If you use my fare finder at https://oysterfares.com/off/ then you'll get all 6 Heathrow stations appear after just typing Heathr. The fares data is exactly the same as the TfL fare finder but I have rationalised the station list to remove unnecessary duplicates* and search a bit easier.

*eg Harrow on the Hill is one station yet they include it twice in their list.

 

[K.o.R]

A case for putting a standalone reader on the HEx trains that must be used?

 

[plugwash]

Special passenger procedures for one service are a bad idea at the best of times, but doing them on an airport service that is likely mostly used by visitors seems like a recipe for massive pain.

 

[JN114]

A case for putting a standalone reader on the HEx trains that must be used?

Or pink readers on the TfL trains - you want the discounted rate you touch the pink reader, otherwise you get full price.

 

[Haywain]

A case for putting a standalone reader on the HEx trains that must be used?

Special passenger procedures for one service are a bad idea at the best of times, but doing them on an airport service that is likely mostly used by visitors seems like a recipe for massive pain.

Agree that an expectation of passengers doing something special are not realistic but are 100% ticket checks still carried out on HEx services as was the case before GWR operated it? If so, perhaps the ticket checking staff could be issued with a device that can act in the same way as a pink reader to apply the HEx rate to the journey (I have no idea how practical that is, before anybody shoots me down!).

 

[matt_world2004]

Special passenger procedures for one service are a bad idea at the best of times, but doing them on an airport service that is likely mostly used by visitors seems like a recipe for massive pain.

Heathrow express has conductors on it. They should go round with an oyster reader scanning people's tickets which puts the fare differentiation on

 

[MikeWh]

I had a really awkward situation last week when I travelled again.

Despite the early hour I got there 15 minutes before the train and explained at length the issue to the chap on the gateline, who insisted I had to touch-in at the barriers in front of platform 4. Would not budge. TFL previously insisted I would not be refunded again as I had 'touched in for the heathrow express'. I did ask if I could look for a 'standalone reader' but he wouldn't let me through to check.

I raised this issue on twitter with @GWR_help:

@GWRHelp
Why are your staff at platform 4/5 at Paddington causing early morning passengers to be overcharged? When TfL-Rail use these platforms passengers must use a validator rather than the gates if going to Heathrow. If they use the gate they're charged a HEx fare.

This was the reply:

Hi Mike. Thanks for your feedback. I'll ask for some clarification on this from the station and be in touch when I hear back. I will likely hear back tomorrow - Josh

Sadly no response yet.

Are you actually owed money at the moment? If it happens again I would just touch in at the gate, get charged the HEx fare, request a refund from the helpdesk, if they refuse then raise a claim against TfL with the small claims court. If it actually goes to a judgement I will provide whatever help you need.

 

[matt_world2004]

TfL should really have MTR staffing the gates for the first train coming into paddington at least there is recourse they can take against them in the form of fines. Also there is no incentive for MTR in ensuring customers are overcharged. Given they recieve 10% of TfL rail farebox revenue and not Heathrow express.