Chargeback on ticket purchase due to rail strikes

[gray1404]

Is there anyone on the forum who is knowledgeable as to the dispute and chargeback process? I've returned a dispute form to Barclaycard following the purchase of a ticket I was unable to use due to rail strikes and would appreciate some more details as to what happens next. I appreciate I might need to provide some more information of course.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What was the reason you couldn't use it and that it wasn't refunded anyway? If your train didn't run or was delayed (delay isn't specified, so using normal railway policies that'd generally be taken as 5 minutes or more) and you chose not to travel a full refund is applicable.

 

[island]

Whilst there can sometimes be poor service, it's rare that something needs to get the the point of a chargeback. Once a chargeback is raised, the matter is adjudicated upon by the card scheme (MasterCard/Visa/etc.) before a decision is reached.

 

[crablab]

Once a chargeback is raised, the matter is adjudicated upon by the card scheme (MasterCard/Visa/etc.) before a decision is reached.

Not really, there's a significant amount of back and forth before it reaches the Arbitration stage. I'd be very surprised if a low value dispute over a train ticket ever escalated that far.

and would appreciate some more details as to what happens next.

If this is a Mastercard:

1. The issuer reviews your form. They may decide that it's not worth the hassle and just refund you, or that your claim is invalid or missing details. For the latter they'll contact you and discuss the situation.
2. Collaboration phase. If the issuer decides it's worth disputing, the transaction is submitted to the collaboration phase. This sits outside of the clearing process and gives the Acquirer opportunity to resolve the dispute by issuing a refund for the transaction, avoiding a chargeback. They should return the ARN of the refund in clearing, if they decide to do this.
3. If the Acquirer does not respond in collaboration then the issuer can submit a First Chargeback. It's likely the form you have filled in will be submitted verbatim or in extracts, to set out the cardholder dispute. An appropriate Reason Code will be selected by the issuer depending on the nature of your dispute (you haven't told us that). A First Chargeback is submitted to clearing.
4. The Acquirer may accept the First Chargeback. If not, they will submit a Second Presentment citing an appropriate Reason Code and supplying evidence supporting that, if applicable. That may simply be the ARN in DE 72 to identify the refund previously processed.

Most chargebacks are resolved at First Chargeback or Second Presentment.

Beyond that we get into pre-arbitration and arbitration cases. These are expensive and labour intensive.

 

[Adam Williams]

Where did you buy the ticket from, out of interest, and did they refuse to refund you?

 

[74A]

Why haven't you just refunded it from the retailer? If you don't use a ticket due to strike they will refund it in full no admin fee.

 

[northwichcat]

If this is a Mastercard:

I can give an example of a chargeback process when an airline cancelled a flight and didn't respond to a refund request. However, I think Barclaycards are normally Visa. In my case the airline submitted a lengthy document rejecting the refund, in which they claimed I accepted the alternative flight offered (I didn't) and could claim a voucher if I didn't still want to travel (I still wanted to travel but they didn't still have a suitable flight option). They also submitted pages showing all their T&Cs for their flights and fares. I think this was just a tactic they used for all chargebacks to slow them down, as I was asked to respond. It ended with either the airline not responding further or Mastercard rejecting their appeal.

If the fare was over £100 and chargeback doesn't work there's an additional avenue for a credit card. Martin Lewis keeps mentioning it applies even if the value is over £100 but you pay less than £100 on your credit card.

Why haven't you just refunded it from the retailer? If you don't use a ticket due to strike they will refund it in full no admin fee.

To initiate a chargeback you need to have requested a refund and for it not to have been processed in an acceptable time frame.

 

[crablab]

To initiate a chargeback you need to have requested a refund and for it not to have been processed in an acceptable time frame.

Strictly, merchant contact is required for some Reason Codes, but it depends on the circumstances.

If the fare was over £100 and chargeback doesn't work there's an additional avenue for a credit card. Martin Lewis keeps mentioning it applies even if the value is over £100 but you pay less than £100 on your credit card.

Section 75 applies to consumer credit that was advanced at the time of purchase (eg. credit cards, store cards). The purchase (note: not transaction) must be for at least £100.

 

[island]

Section 75 applies to consumer credit that was advanced at the time of purchase (eg. credit cards, store cards). The purchase (note: not transaction) must be for at least £100.

More specifically, the individual item must be over £100.

 

[crablab]

More specifically, the individual item must be over £100.

Yes, apologies for not making that clear.

 

[gray1404]

It's visa and it was £380

 

[Darandio]

It's visa and it was £380

Presumably you've taken all other necessary steps before reaching this stage?

 

[AlterEgo]

Why has the refund not been granted initially? Is this a rover ticket?

 

[gray1404]

Why has the refund not been granted initially? Is this a rover ticket?

Yes. And a retailer basically saying non refundable.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Guidance from Rail Delivery Group to TOCs regarding Rovers during industrial action is that they're treated like season tickets for compensation purposes, but normal refund rules apply (i.e. they're only normally refundable if surrendered prior to the first day of validity.)

As such, you can claim 100% Delay Repay for strike days on consecutive Rovers, but you can only claim for Flexi Rovers if you've dated one of the boxes for a strike day and not travelled.

 

[scrapy]

Just to add that Barclaycard can take several months to even begin an investigation. The amount of repetitive forms sent are ridiculous.

I had an issue where a hotel company moved my stay to a sister hotel with far less facilities, 10 miles away and refused to refund as they claimed their T's and C's allowed them to do this and the rate was non refundable.These were not the T's and C's that were current when I booked and added in later when they decided to close the original hotel.

Barclaycard did pay up without much quibble in the end, but I'd certainly pursue it with the retailer until all non legal avenues are exhausted as it's probably a lot less hassle and took me several hours of form filling.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Aug 2023 ==

It's visa and it was £380

Railcard discounted 7 day all line rover?

If so did you use the ticket on any days it was valid or was it completely unused? Did you buy the rover once strike timetables were already announced? If bought in advance of the start date, did you initially present the rover for refund before the start date?

 

[northwichcat]

Just to add that Barclaycard can take several months to even begin an investigation. The amount of repetitive forms sent are ridiculous.

I had an issue where a hotel company moved my stay to a sister hotel with far less facilities, 10 miles away and refused to refund as they claimed their T's and C's allowed them to do this and the rate was non refundable.These were not the T's and C's that were current when I booked and added in later when they decided to close the original hotel.

Barclaycard did pay up without much quibble in the end, but I'd certainly pursue it with the retailer until all non legal avenues are exhausted as it's probably a lot less hassle and took me several hours of form filling.

In a case like that I suppose the big question is did you refuse the alternative hotel or accept it? Accepting it might make it more complicated as then it might be a case of you've been overcharged. A bit like ordering a 1l bottle of washing up liquid in an online order but only receiving a smaller size.

 

[crablab]

Accepting it might make it more complicated as then it might be a case of you've been overcharged. A bit like ordering a 1l bottle of washing up liquid in an online order but only receiving a smaller size.

Not really. These kind of chargebacks are quite common.
There is a Mastercard position on how these are adjudicated should they reach the Arbitration stage. Some platforms (eg. Expedia) have an agreed policy in their terms on partial refunds.

Restrictive terms must be displayed upfront, and it's for the Acquirer to prove that terms were clearly displayed prior to the transaction taking place. Obviously terms that have changed subsequently cannot be relied upon (in the dispute resolution process, anyway).

 

[Haywain]

In a case like that I suppose the big question is did you refuse the alternative hotel or accept it?

For most people, there isn’t really a choice in such a situation. If you've travelled half the length of the country, what are you supposed to do if refusing doesn't get you a room at your original choice?

 

[gray1404]

It was purchased before notice of any strike action and the ticket was totally unused.

Interestingly Barclaycard have today refunded the amount in dispute back onto my card. Although I am not sure what will happen next and if they could take the money back again or ask for more details. Does the retailer who they might have taken the money back off have a certain amount of time by which to raise an objection?

Also, as it's just a general dispute form I'm not sure if have done this as a charge back or a Section 75 claim as it's a Visa Credit card.

 

[scrapy]

It was purchased before notice of any strike action and the ticket was totally unused.

Interestingly Barclaycard have today refunded the amount in dispute back onto my card. Although I am not sure what will happen next and if they could take the money back again or ask for more details. Does the retailer who they might have taken the money back off have a certain amount of time by which to raise an objection?

Also, as it's just a general dispute form I'm not sure if have done this as a charge back or a Section 75 claim as it's a Visa Credit card.

I'd keep all documentation in case of any future comeback. The t&c's of rovers are that they generally refundable up until the date they start whether or not there is strike action (admin fee should be waived for strike action) so I'd also complain to the retailer about how it was handled and maybe the rail ombudsman if you get nowhere (although they are pretty useless imo).

There is generally no benefit to buying rovers in advance (especially more than two weeks in advance). They can be bought on the day of travel in case plans change.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Sep 2023 ==

For most people, there isn’t really a choice in such a situation. If you've travelled half the length of the country, what are you supposed to do if refusing doesn't get you a room at your original choice?

I was notified in advance of the change but decided to cancel as the alternative despite being officially 5 star instead of 4 was poorly located (I would have had to make 4 10 mile taxi journeys at my expense). Despite the higher official rating the other hotel the leisure facilities were pretty much non existent or an extra fee and many of the 'better facilities' were weather dependent and this was January! The TripAdvisor reviews were also pretty mixed.

 

[lyesbkz]

Interestingly Barclaycard have today refunded the amount in dispute back onto my card. Although I am not sure what will happen next and if they could take the money back again or ask for more details. Does the retailer who they might have taken the money back off have a certain amount of time by which to raise an objection?

Here is a general guide to the chargeback process from the perspective of a merchant rather than a consumer. It's really aimed at merchants who use Barclaycard for payment acceptance, but provides a good general summary of a chargeback process and is more detailed than anything consumer-facing I could find. If you need specific details or timescales that you can rely on, I would suggest contacting Barclaycard using the number on the back of your card and they should be able to explain the stages in the process and hopefully send you some documentation about it.

Beginner’s guide to chargebacks | Barclaycard Business

All you need to know about chargebacks and retrievals.

www.barclaycard.co.uk

To answer your question: Based on my own experience with other banks, and correlating with the guide above, the money is generally returned to you temporarily while the bank investigates the claim. Once this is completed, if it's decided in your favour then there will be no further action (as they already returned the money to you) and if it's decided in the merchant's favour then they will take the money back again.

 

[crablab]

Does the retailer who they might have taken the money back off have a certain amount of time by which to raise an objection?

Yes, I believe the time frames are similar but I'm not very familiar with Visa's process.

Also, as it's just a general dispute form I'm not sure if have done this as a charge back or a Section 75 claim as it's a Visa Credit card.

A Section 75 generally starts with a chargeback anyway, unless it's out of time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Sep 2023 ==

if it's decided in the merchant's favour then they will take the money back again.

Just to be clear: in the vast majority of cases there is no adjudication by the card network. It's extremely expensive and most disputes are resolved earlier in the process, either by one party making a 'fatal error' or running out of time (essentially accepting liability).
The adjudication will largely be by the issuer, as to whether the chargeback is valid.

 

[gray1404]

Thanks for all your replies and for explaining the process. I guess I'll just have to wait and see what happens now.

Having looked at the information provided here and on the link to the guide it looks like they have done a chargeback and taken the money from the retailer. The retailer will now have 2 weeks to respond.

Hopefully that will be the end of the matter abd hopefully the retailer will not even bother replying or will do so late. Although I may be being optimistic here.

If they do take they money back I'll have to make further representations to my bank stating my case if needed. I still have the option of insisting it is a Section 75 claim so thus the bank is liable and a complaint but hopefully it won't come to that.

 

[northwichcat]

Interestingly Barclaycard have today refunded the amount in dispute back onto my card. Although I am not sure what will happen next and if they could take the money back again or ask for more details. Does the retailer who they might have taken the money back off have a certain amount of time by which to raise an objection?

As it's disputed, I think they generally show the transaction as reversed but pending straight away. That then means you won't incur any interest on the transaction while it's investigated. It might also mean if you've set up a direct debit for the full amount that your next payment may be lower than the statement amount.

 

[gray1404]

I've been doing some reading around on Martin Lewis site about chargebacks and he seems to imply that after 45 days the bank, having refunded the money to me while they raise the charge back, cannot take it again without permission. He also goes so far to say that after 45 days you can be fairly confident you will be able to keep the money.

Is this true?

Also he states that if you have not hard confirmation of an outcome of your case from your bank after 8 weeks then you can complain to the Ombudsman.

Would this be a wise thing to do or are things just best left?

 

[island]

Also he states that if you have not hard confirmation of an outcome of your case from your bank after 8 weeks then you can complain to the Ombudsman.

Not quite how it works. If you raise a complaint, the bank has 15 working days – this used to be 8 weeks but has been lowered for "payment complaints" – to send you a final response, otherwise the complaint can be referred to the Ombudsman. But that time starts when you raise a complaint about the Banks handling of the chargeback, not when you raise the chargeback itself.

Would this be a wise thing to do or are things just best left?

Complaining isn't especially likely to speed up the process if that's what you mean.

 

[crablab]

he seems to imply that after 45 days the bank, having refunded the money to me while they raise the charge back, cannot take it again without permission. He also goes so far to say that after 45 days you can be fairly confident you will be able to keep the money.

It's a simplification.

The issue is not obligated to raise the chargeback or offer you a refund whilst the chargeback is in progress.

There are time limits, as I alluded to above, by which time each party must respond. If they don't respond they lose by default.

But you don't get to see that process and crucially don't know when the chargeback was raised and whether the other side have processed a Second Presentment.

It's best to wait until the issuer confirms the chargeback has been won.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Oct 2023 ==

Complaining isn't especially likely to speed up the process if that's what you mean.

Indeed. It will likely make no difference at all, except irritating a complaint handler.

 

[gray1404]

Thank you both @island and @crablab

It sounds like I am best sitting tight until I hear from my bank and not pin too many hopes of Martin Lewis 45 day advice.

Is there any merit at all in thinking that the more time that goes by the more likely it is that I have won and the money will not be clawed back?

 

[crablab]

Is there any merit at all in thinking that the more time that goes by the more likely it is that I have won and the money will not be clawed back?

Yes I believe the customer facing number we used was 3 months for "most cases" from customer submitting to getting a refund.

The 45 days isn't wrong, but it's taken out of context and allows no time for the backoffice processing required to assess your claim, prepare the evidence, submit the evidence and then process any further clearing events.