charge sheet received - help!

[Haywain]

then got the court document this week.

Along with the 'charge sheet' should be the SJPN notice. They are not sent separately.

 

[WesternLancer]

You really need to answer this.

I can't really see that this will prevent the OP contacting GTR - asking if they will settle and drop the court action if they pay. I get the sense the OP wants to close the matter and that might well be an effective route to doing so.

Otherwise, as the recent docs were only sent a few days ago the OP has to write back and say 'I think some documentation was missing from what you have just sent me' (if it was) but I can't see the point of doing that if what the OP wants is for GTR to withdraw the case anyway.

Obv I bow to those with greater knowledge of this process - which of course is important.

 

[Haywain]

I can't really see that this will prevent the OP contacting GTR - asking if they will settle and drop the court action if they pay.

No, but it will help to understand the timescales we are dealing with.

 

[MichelleRWB]

You really need to answer this.

I really don't know as I didn't open the mail. I feel it's all rather academic as it's my own fault for not doing something about it in August and then forgetting about it. I just want to stop it going to court now. unfortunately, as my original post showed, my son opened my mail while I was away for work (he's a young adult, these sorts of things mean nothing to him) and just shoved it in the kitchen drawer and never thought to tell anybody. it's my own fault but I don't want to have a criminal record over it

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jan 2024 ==

Along with the 'charge sheet' should be the SJPN notice. They are not sent separately.

sorry I just figured what you mean -- there's a statement of facts and the Single Justice Procedure Notice -- it gives me 21 days to plead guilty or not guilty

 

[island]

sorry I just figured what you mean -- there's a statement of facts and the Single Justice Procedure Notice -- it gives me 21 days to plead guilty or not guilty

Please post up copies of these, blocking out personal data.

 

[John Palmer]

It would be useful to see the Single Justice Procedure Notice itself, as neither of the documents uploaded with post #3 sets a 21 day deadline for a plea, implying that the SJPN was a third document sent you along with the two you provided in post #3, but one which you have not previously uploaded. Sending the SJPN is a mandatory part of the procedure: if it has not been sent to you then there is a serious defect in the procedure GTR has been following.

I agree with @island that it would have been more appropriate to bring a charge under Bylaw 19:

"Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class, except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place."

Having said that, Bylaw 18(1) is in the following terms:

"In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel"

In Bylaw 25, the following definition appears:

'“train” means any item of rolling stock and includes any carriage, wagon or locomotive' (my emphasis)

This leads me to wonder whether a prosecutor might try to meet an objection that no offence has been committed under Bylaw 18 with the argument that it is feasible to charge under Bylaw 18 as an alternative to Bylaw 19, and that it matters not that the 1st class carriage was entered otherwise than at a station. I find it a rather artifical argument, but I wonder whether the GTR prosecutor has reservations about the scope of the Bylaw 19 offence in view of its use of the words "remain in any seat".

I'm sure the most appropriate course for the OP must be to try to reach a settlement with GTR, so my comments are directed to the situation arising if efforts to do so fail.

 

[island]

This leads me to wonder whether a prosecutor might try to meet an objection that no offence has been committed under Bylaw 18 with the argument that it is feasible to charge under Bylaw 18 as an alternative to Bylaw 19, and that it matters not that the 1st class carriage was entered otherwise than at a station. I find it a rather artifical argument, but I wonder whether the GTR prosecutor has reservations about the scope of the Bylaw 19 offence in view of its use of the words "remain in any seat".

The 1st class area on class 700 trains is not a carriage but a subsection of a carriage, so I think that is a stretch too far.

I agree with the rest.

 

[John Palmer]

The 1st class area on class 700 trains is not a carriage but a subsection of a carriage, so I think that is a stretch too far.

I agree, and I think this puts the OP in a stronger negotiating position if GTR shows reluctance to reconsider the wisdom of proceeding with its prosecution.

 

[MichelleRWB]

many thanks for all your help, I sent a letter as recommended by one of the posters here which has to be signed for, and will await a response. hopefully they will not prosecute, it seems overly aggressive but the fault is mine for not being on top of the issue

 

[WesternLancer]

many thanks for all your help, I sent a letter as recommended by one of the posters here which has to be signed for, and will await a response. hopefully they will not prosecute, it seems overly aggressive but the fault is mine for not being on top of the issue

Thanks for update - do let us now how you get on or if you need further input.

Yes, these are standard letters of course (or in this case court related documents) no doubt sent to hundreds of people on a regular basis - including people who have simply ignored efforts for the railway to contact them or get them to engage earlier on. Even in your own case you admit that after being issued with presumably a Penalty Fare you did not take quick steps to pay it, then forgot about it altogether, then were overseas when they wrote to you - which is of course bad luck. As you say, your own fault, but you can probably see from their point of view they can't know you are any different from someone who thinks that by ignoring what happened they can get away with not paying.

 

[MichelleRWB]

update: I sent a letter to Govia on January 18 asking for an out of court settlement and apologising profusely. it was sent via a next-day signed-for delivery. didn't hear anything back so today I checked its progress using the reference number and it's letter is showing as not being received. the only entry in the Royal Mail website with my reference number was that it left the post office where I sent it on January 18 and that was it. getting in touch with the Royal Mail is impossible to find out what has happened. does the Govia prosecutions department not accept signed-for mail? or was there also a cock up with Royal Mail? (I have the receipt but it doesn't have the address it was sent to).

extremely frustrating and now I'm seven days to go to answer the charge sheet. I've left messages on the phone number provided by Govia with my reference number and details but nobody has been in touch. the only option I have now is to try a lawyer and pay them to try and sort an out of court settlement or plead guilty and ask for mitigating circumstances. you cannot imagine how stressful this is -- will the judge have leniency not to give me a criminal record, even if I plead guilty? if anybody can help I'd be extremely grateful.

 

[MotCO]

Whilst still trying to phone them, can I suggest that you also write to them, again using next-day signed for, explaining that you did respond to their earlier letter but the Post Office failed to deliver, and give copies of your original response and a copy of the signed-for receipt you received from the Post Office. Ask if they will accept your response which was not delivered (on time) through no fault of yourself.

 

[spag23]

(I have the receipt but it doesn't have the address it was sent to)

Are you sure that neither part of the Post Office paperwork includes the post code of the Govia offices?

 

[John R]

That’s really frustrating for you, but it highlights the point that if you use a signed for service then you need to check that it has been received - something we may want to suggest in future when we advise people to use such a service.

 

[Hadders]

If you used Royal Mail's 'Signed For' service then the receipt should have the the address on it.

As well as sending another letter to the Prosecutions Office using Next Day Special Delivery I would also send a copy via email.
It might also be worth sending a copy to GTR's Registered Office for the attention of the Compoany Secretary explaining that you are sending a copy of the letter to the legal address at which documents can be served on the company because your earlier letter sent direct to the Prosecutions Department appears to have not been delivered.

GTR's Registered Office address is:
3rd Floor, 41-51 Grey Street
Newcastle upon Tyne, NE1 6EE.

 

[MichelleRWB]

Are you sure that neither part of the Post Office paperwork includes the post code of the Govia offices?

I checked and the receipt from the Royal Mail does have the postcode of the Govia office on it. but I have to say, I've admitted defeat and given up and just filled in the court paperwork, attached the letter, explained about the Royal Mail problem and included the original receipt and printed out a screenshot of what it says online. I'm defeated. I've left several messages with Govia now. I've asked for mitigating circumstances. I feel very defeated

 

[WesternLancer]

I checked and the receipt from the Royal Mail does have the postcode of the Govia office on it. but I have to say, I've admitted defeat and given up and just filled in the court paperwork, attached the letter, explained about the Royal Mail problem and included the original receipt and printed out a screenshot of what it says online. I'm defeated. I've left several messages with Govia now. I've asked for mitigating circumstances. I feel very defeated

presumably you have grounds for a complaint with Royal Mail at least to obtain a refund of whatever you spent on their signed for delivery service.

This level of poor service is appalling.

 

[MichelleRWB]

the consequences of their poor service is far greater to me than the £2.75 cost of their service.

 

[randyrippley]

Was it sent to a "real" address or a PO Box number? Box numbers can't receive signed-for mail

 

[MichelleRWB]

it was sent to the address provided on the form which was not a post office box

 

[island]

That’s really frustrating for you, but it highlights the point that if you use a signed for service then you need to check that it has been received - something we may want to suggest in future when we advise people to use such a service.

"Signed for" mail goes in the normal post with everything else. It's not tracked or separated, the only difference is a signature is (supposed to be) taken on delivery. If the OP's letter has gone astray, they can claim £10 compensation in stamps – not that that's much help.

Special Delivery Guaranteed on the other hand goes in a separate delivery stream and Royal Mail take it a lot more seriously.

 

[Haywain]

I checked and the receipt from the Royal Mail does have the postcode of the Govia office on it. but I have to say, I've admitted defeat and given up and just filled in the court paperwork, attached the letter, explained about the Royal Mail problem and included the original receipt and printed out a screenshot of what it says online. I'm defeated. I've left several messages with Govia now. I've asked for mitigating circumstances. I feel very defeated

Giving up is a bad idea. I would suggest that as you haven't had a response you phone the Prosecutions team and explain to them that you have written and had no response. Their phone number is 020 7922 4923. They also have an email address of gtr.prosecutions@gtrailway.com but with the short timescale you have I think that you should prioritise phoning.

 

[John R]

"Signed for" mail goes in the normal post with everything else. It's not tracked or separated, the only difference is a signature is (supposed to be) taken on delivery. If the OP's letter has gone astray, they can claim £10 compensation in stamps – not that that's much help.

Special Delivery Guaranteed on the other hand goes in a separate delivery stream and Royal Mail take it a lot more seriously.

I guess the point is that you can get confirmation (or not) whether it has been received. An earlier indication that it hadn’t been would have been very helpful in this instance.

 

[spag23]

Giving up is a bad idea.

Especially as the OP's first post says they...

want to have an out-of-court settlement as I will lose my job with a criminal record.

 

[MichelleRWB]

Especially as the OP's first post says they...

I've left several messages over a three-week period and nobody got back to me. so I just pleaded guilty. I'm hoping the judge will give me a 'spent' conviction ie it won't be seen on advanced checks. I'm in the wrong but have to say there's a special place of hatred in my heart for the inaccessibility, bureaucracy and corporate downsizing that means that places like the post office and Govia aren't fully staffed and can't cater for phone calls and respond to emails etc. I'm old enough to remember getting outraged with a 5-minute wait to have a call answered, now you're battling chatbots, hour-plus hold times and email black holes.

 

[Malaxa]

update: I sent a letter to Govia on January 18 asking for an out of court settlement and apologising profusely. it was sent via a next-day signed-for delivery.

There's no such thing. It's either First Class Signed For with the aim of achieving next day delivery, or RM Special Delivery, guaranteeing [with en route tracking] delivery the next day by 1pm.

 

[Haywain]

I've left several messages over a three-week period and nobody got back to me. so I just pleaded guilty. I'm hoping the judge will give me a 'spent' conviction ie it won't be seen on advanced checks. I'm in the wrong but have to say there's a special place of hatred in my heart for the inaccessibility, bureaucracy and corporate downsizing that means that places like the post office and Govia aren't fully staffed and can't cater for phone calls and respond to emails etc. I'm old enough to remember getting outraged with a 5-minute wait to have a call answered, now you're battling chatbots, hour-plus hold times and email black holes.

So you've tried phoning. Have you emailed and written again? If you are really keen to avoid a conviction you'll try everything.

 

[AlterEgo]

I've left several messages over a three-week period and nobody got back to me. so I just pleaded guilty. I'm hoping the judge will give me a 'spent' conviction ie it won't be seen on advanced checks.

There is no judge involved; this is dealt with by a magistrate.

If you are fined, which is the standard sentence for this offence, then the conviction will become spent after one year and you will legally need to declare it if asked about it. Your employer may expect you to declare it without being asked, and you should check your contract of employment and consult your union if you have one.

It is unlikely to appear on an Enhanced DBS, but this may in rare cases happen. Bylaws are not usually recorded on the Police National Computer but are still a matter of public record - that is, you still have a criminal record - and may be revealed as non-PNC intelligence if the case handler deems the information relevant to the disclosure.

 

[Pushpit]

Bylaw offences only very rarely get on to EDBS. Very occasionally I've had a phone call from the police querying a job title and they may give some verbal hints if there's a bit of a red flag, and I have had a few EDBS feedbacks where there were offences listed which should not have been there. So computer input mistakes and poor training. Employers are able to understand this better than DBS / Disclosure Scotland / myriad police forces. It's much more likely that something that should be on EDBS gets omitted for, well, the same reasons really.

I think the queries on DBS are often misplaced here - the candidate for the job gets the first sight of the documentation so the actual worry point here is "what are you going to tell your employer before the DBS application?" Since no-one will know ahead of the application, the end result is that you are going to have to tell your employer unless you're ready to deal with the much bigger issue of being seen to lie in your job application. There is a process to correct DBS errors.

 

[island]

I'm hoping the judge will give me a 'spent' conviction ie it won't be seen on advanced checks.

Judges can’t give “a spent conviction”. They only give convictions. Convictions become spent after a period of time prescribed by law; in the case of an offence punished by fine, this is after a year.