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Channel Tunnel Problem

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captainbigun

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And he'd be mostly right, but there have been problems before, not on the same scale however.

There appears to be something very particular to the current set of cicumstances hence the test trains.
 
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Micky Redmire

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Yes, but there are a number of potential reasons why that was the case. The VCB may have opened due to the fault, although I'd expect the secondary protection to have operated first. If the VCB had opened it could be that the crew didn't want to risk re-closing. Or, perhaps the crew chose to drop the pan. All supposition of course, but as I said above at least one set was towed pan up. It is definitely a traction fault.
KX is a bit of an extreme example as a comparison, there was no fire here. Don't forget there has been a fire in one of the tunnels, and that was dealt with well by all accounts. I don't think there is any suggestion in this instance that there was a potential for fatalities, but I'm not taking away how unpleasant it must have been.

Re: pans and VCBs; the detail is gibberish to me, but I think I understand the overall picture: it is possible for a fault with the traction system to disable the non-traction supply. If the traction supply is utilised to supply non-traction life safety services eg lighting, then there is an element of value engineering here. The belt and braces approach would be to fully separate traction and non-traction supplies.

Re: Kings Cross, there were smaller fires before the 1987 fatalities, but the big reduction in risk only occurred after fatalities. With the exception of nuclear, all sectors appear to need a kick up the backside before reducing risk, even petrochem (the warning signs for Buncefield were endemic ... with hindsight).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A 'rail expert' on BBC R4 news at lunchtime made the point that Eurostars have been running through the tunnel for 15 years, and it's not the first time it's been cold in France and hot in the tunnel.

He reckons Eurostar might have changed something on the trains in the last year or so which has introduced the possibility of these failures. We've had these conditions before, but they didn't cause the chaos we've seen this time.
That is a logical observation from the information available. And I would certainly want to review the "winterisation" and maintenance programmes with regards to covers/screens. Event loggers to be downloaded and data quarantined, at least one of the failed sets to be quarantined to allow an independent technical investigation to be instigated. The wishlist grows ..
 

O L Leigh

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There's a lot of fairly speculative discussion going on around here at present.

Firstly, "thinking outside the box".

The operating rules and regulations of the railways are there to ensure the safety of staff, passengers, trains and infrastructure. Therefore they are all there for a very good reason. Flexing, circumventing or just plain ignoring them increases risk to the extent that safety becomes compromised. When normal operating procedures go out the window, e.g. as a consequence of signal failure, other rules kick in to permit continued operation with the same degree of safety even under degraded conditions.

While it's quite nice to think that you're doing everyone a favour by keeping the job moving, it's a very fine line to tread. The moment you start ignoring the rules and regulations you have impaired safety and have started out on a tightrope. If all goes well then so much the better, but if it goes wrong then you're properly in the mire.

As an example, if I get to my break point late and don't have time to take the full 40 minutes I'm entitled to, I can either opt to take a spoilt break and be compensated in my pay or I can run my next service late. I know which option most members of the travelling public and the company would like me to take, but in doing so I am ignoring the rules and impairing safety. If I take the spoilt break I am potentially introducing a greater degree of risk. If I happen to SPAD a signal following a spoilt break the fact that I have agreed to take the shorter break "as a favour" would not count for me. The SPAD would go down against my name and the major factor would be that I failed to take my break. If I happen to collide with another train and kill lots of people I could be personally liable under law for criminal proceedings against me on the basis that I needlessly introduced risk.

Consequently, rules are there for a reason. You can't just try one thing and, if it doesn't work, try something else. The rules and procedures are intended to ensure safety.

Secondly, Eurostar's emergency procedures.

I have already said in this thread that the failure of 5 sets in "the pipe" at the same time is about the same odds as winning the lottery. The fact that it has happened only once in 15 years highlights just how unusual this is. Consequently, how do you plan for what must have been considered "the impossible"?

Thirdly, Eurostar on-train power.

I am not familiar with the workings of the Eurostar, but as most know I do at least "sign" electric traction.

I would imagine that snow ingress would have caused a flashover somewhere which would have tripped an overload relay and opened the VCB, thereby protecting the train. Depending on precisely what the fault was, putting the VCB back in would probably have resulted in a second flashover and the VCB tripping again. With new stock like the Eurostar I would imagine that these functions would have been under the control of the TMS which would no doubt limit the number of VCB resets attempted.

What happens next would depend on precisely what and where the fault was. I know that often times you get a motor or earth fault that only manifests itself when you open the power controller so, provided you don't attempt to draw power you can sit there with the VCB in quite happily. However, if the fault is elsewhere, particularly with the transformer or other "stationary" systems, you won't get the VCB back in no matter what you do. Again, on Eurostar, I suppose it all depends on what the TMS permits, whether the affected systems can seperately isolated and whether or not the flashover on the train was sufficiently severe to cause an overload on the traction supply and trip out the overheads as well.

Eurostar will have their own fault-finding procedures that would have been followed. There is a fair chance that damage to the pan may have been suspected (especially if the driver saw a bright flash) and so they were lowered as a precaution.

Fourthly, "winterisation" of the sets.

I have no reason to doubt Eurostar's statements on this front. Even proven designs that had been in service for a number of years can suddenly succumb to unexpected, or at least unexpectedly bad, weather conditions. We blew quite a few traction motors on Cl317's last winter when it snowed, and these units have been in continuous service somewhere between 25 and 30 years.

Now that Eurostar know that the existing snow screens are not adequate for all winter conditions they will be changed.

Fifthly, the blame game.

Everyone loves to play this whenever something bad happens. Quite frankly I'm not going to join in because I find it tiresome and those who seem to want to take the lead seem to know the least. What should or shouldn't happen as a result of this incident will be looked at when these failures are investigated and recommendations made were necessary.

Re: pans and VCBs; the detail is gibberish to me, but I think I understand the overall picture: it is possible for a fault with the traction system to disable the non-traction supply. If the traction supply is utilised to supply non-traction life safety services eg lighting, then there is an element of value engineering here. The belt and braces approach would be to fully separate traction and non-traction supplies.

If the detail is gibberish to you I don't see how you can comment on whether or not the engineering is good, bad or indifferent. Clearly you have no understanding of how electric trains operate, so perhaps you ought to either withdraw from this part of the discussion, go away and do some reading or be willing to ask someone with a bit of knowledge to explain it to you.

With respect...

O L Leigh
 
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captainbigun

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Pan>VCB>Main Transformer. Each Eurostar is made up of two half sets. It is possible to power the auxiliaries for the entire set from one power car.

Main transformer will have Primary to 25kV then several secondary windings for the traction and finally at least one tertiary for the auxiliaries. This is the same for all 25kV traction. There will be a selection of static converters for the various aux train supplies. So, if you lose your main transformer, you are royally buggered. If you lose your traction inverters that shouldn't kill your aux supply unless the primary protection activates or as Mr Leigh has pointed out your TMS limits this - which it may well do.

A slight edit to the above, there is the odd exception, like the Pendolino which has two main transformers which can be fed by either pan being raised (separate VCBs). There's a 25kV bus between the two. The distributed power combined with the required weight distributions mean that this is preferable to a single, larger transformer with more feeds to the remote traction inverters.
 
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Micky Redmire

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... and quarantine the last set that ran through successfully.

I assume that sets and tunnels are fitted with a comprehensive range of sensors and data loggers
I have already said in this thread that the failure of 5 sets in "the pipe" at the same time is about the same odds as winning the lottery.
Any statistical evidence for this? Just wondering ...
and those who seem to want to take the lead seem to know the least.
I concur ;)

I must ask on a different thread; how can a SPAD occur with any halfway reasonable control system?

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If the detail is gibberish to you I don't see how you can comment on whether or not the engineering is good, bad or indifferent. Clearly you have no understanding of how electric trains operate, so perhaps you ought to either withdraw from this part of the discussion, go away and do some reading or be willing to ask someone with a bit of knowledge to explain it to you.
Feel free to point out my errors, I'm more than happy to learn. And it's good to see that the railway industry hasn't lost any of it's insularity over the years ..
 
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O L Leigh

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Ah, I see what stripe of poster you are now.

Please feel free to run for office and see if you can net yourself the post of Minister for Transport. Then you can show us all how it's supposed to be done.

Feel free to point out my errors, I'm more than happy to learn.

Usually people tend to take the time to at least try and understand things first before passing any judgement.

And it's good to see that the railway industry hasn't lost any of it's insularity over the years.

What rankles is not the criticism, it is the unfounded criticism. It is that a person from outside the industry with no knowledge or understanding of the engineering, rules and operational practices seems to know better than those of us working in an industry based on almost 175 years of combined history and experience. Would you take advice from me about what aerials to install or how to install them...?

No, thought not.

However, I'm sure that all and sundry concerned with the railways are more than happy to learn lessons from other industries and individuals. Show that you understand the problem and come up with some realistic, workable solutions and we'll have a basis for a proper discussion.

Any statistical evidence for this? Just wondering ...

Years of operation: 15.
Number of times 5 sets have failed together in "the pipe": 1

Pretty long odds I think you will agree.

O L Leigh
 
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Micky Redmire

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Ah, I see what stripe of poster you are now.

Please feel free to run for office and see if you can net yourself the post of Minister for Transport. Then you can show us all how it's supposed to be done.

O L Leigh
Waiting for you to point out my errors, I'm always ready to learn ... you should try it sometime ;)
 

captainbigun

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I have no reason to doubt Eurostar's statements on this front. Even proven designs that had been in service for a number of years can suddenly succumb to unexpected, or at least unexpectedly bad, weather conditions. We blew quite a few traction motors on Cl317's last winter when it snowed, and these units have been in continuous service somewhere between 25 and 30 years.

Indeed, units don't have the advantage of having blown motors. With the naturally ventilated design there's opportunity for snow to get in and that is a problem. I know that a variety of cover and snow curtain arrangements have been tried over the years. All have their good and bad points. Installing snow curtains however, remains a ball ache.
 

ukrob

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I'm astounded that people who have little knowledge of the rail industry, and even less knowledge of how the technical systems work have come up with a solution without knowing the precise details of what the problem actually is.
 

Micky Redmire

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Ah, I see what stripe of poster you are now.

Please feel free to run for office and see if you can net yourself the post of Minister for Transport. Then you can show us all how it's supposed to be done.



Usually people tend to take the time to at least try and understand things first before passing any judgement.



What rankles is not the criticism, it is the unfounded criticism. It is that a person from outside the industry with no knowledge or understanding of the engineering, rules and operational practices seems to know better than those of us working in an industry based on almost 175 years of combined history and experience. Would you take advice from me about what aerials to install or how to install them...?

No, thought not.

O L Leigh

Aerials? You're confused. You're also confused about system strategy and engineering detail.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm astounded that people who have little knowledge of the rail industry, and even less knowledge of how the technical systems work have come up with a solution without knowing the precise details of what the problem actually is.
Do you have a link to the proposed solution, I'd like to read it ..
 

ukrob

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Do you have a link to the proposed solution, I'd like to read it ..

No, I don't. I have never claimed to had one, nor speculated over what the problem is.

It is just an (quite laughable to be honest) observation after watching many pages of this thread.
 

Micky Redmire

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Years of operation: 15.
Number of times 5 sets have failed together in "the pipe": 1
Pretty long odds I think you will agree.
O L Leigh
But much more likely than winning the lottery. How about this: on the statistical evidence available, what is the likelihood of Eurostar/Eurotunnel efficiently recovering 5 failed sets from one tunnel?

Lots of post-post-editing occurring, which will cause confusion, but there we are.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
No, I don't. I have never claimed to had one, nor speculated over what the problem is.

It is just an (quite laughable to be honest) observation after watching many pages of this thread.
But you mentioned a solution ...

Yes, this thread has been fun :|
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Are you not the aerial fitter...?

Perhaps that's my mistake. So many people have posted so many things.

Either way, the point still stands.

O L Leigh
What, the point about aerials? I did install an aerial on a house in the mid-1980s, just the one though, does that help? There is confusion ..
 

Micky Redmire

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Indeed, units don't have the advantage of having blown motors. With the naturally ventilated design there's opportunity for snow to get in and that is a problem. I know that a variety of cover and snow curtain arrangements have been tried over the years. All have their good and bad points. Installing snow curtains however, remains a ball ache.
IP68 and closed circuit cooling system, VE down from there ..... have I typed before? Anyway, must go .... I've a train to catch:lol:
 

O L Leigh

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Waiting for you to point out my errors, I'm always ready to learn ... you should try it sometime ;)

I'm always learning. In my job, every day is a school day.

OK, so let me explain how an electric train divides up the power it uses. Stop me if I'm going too fast.

Power is collected at 25kV AC from the overhead power line by the pantograph (pan for short) mounted on the train roof to supply all the train's power needs. This then passes through the train's primary safeguard, the Vacuum Circuit Breaker (VCB). This is effectively a big switch that, when open, isolates all the train equipment from the power supply.

The power is then transferred down the HT lead into the primary windings of the transformer. This steps the power down to a lower voltage for the traction equipment and motors (secondary winding) and to a lower voltage still for the battery chargers and on-train services (tertiary windings). There is also an auxilliary battery supply that provides power for the emergency lights, some/all external lights, PA, cab-to-shore radio and any other low consumption systems considered vital.

Each circuit is protected by it's own protection relay and/or circuit breaker and many systems can be isolated by the traincrew in the event of a fault. However, faults on some of the more major train systems, such as the transformer, traction equipment, motors and earths, will result in the VCB opening in order to prevent any further damage to other train systems as a consequence of high voltages, flashovers, etc.

Equally, a fault on a train can result in tripping of the overhead power supply. Most often this is because of excessive arcing or an earth fault on the train.

"Traction supply" is a fairly loose term that could mean one of two things. It's more usual meaning is with reference to the power in the electrification system itself. 25kV AC is the traction supply for Eurostar. However, some here could be using it incorrectly to refer to the supply from the secondary windings of the transformer that feed the traction equipment and motors.

These arrangements are the international standard for mainline rail electrification, particularly on high speed lines.

O L Leigh
 

Micky Redmire

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I'm astounded that people who have little knowledge of the rail industry, and even less knowledge of how the technical systems work have come up with a solution without knowing the precise details of what the problem actually is.

... have come up with a solution ... where? I only ask because I'd like to read it.

Or are there 2 off ukrobs posting here?
 

O L Leigh

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How about this: on the statistical evidence available, what is the likelihood of Eurostar/Eurotunnel efficiently recovering 5 failed sets from one tunnel?

What has that to do with anything...? The need to recover 5 sets from the tunnel only occurs when 5 sets fail down there. And, as I said, how often does that happen? So far, once in 15 years.

While we're talking odds, would you like to make a confident prediction about when this might happen next?

What you consider to be "efficient" is a moot point. What is speed if safety is compromised? It may have taken longer than was ideal, but all 5 sets were recovered and were recovered safely.

O L Leigh
 

ukrob

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... have come up with a solution ... where? I only ask because I'd like to read it.

Or are there 2 off ukrobs posting here?

I have not come up with a solution, nor do I have claimed to have done so. You are reading too much into posts.

I'm not going to play silly games when it is clear for all to see that I have not posted a solution or claimed to have one.
 

jon0844

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Just watched ITV News where the comment was made by the Editor of RAIL magazine that the snow filters were either not good enough, not maintained or possibly not fitted.

I have a sneaky suspicion that it may well be as simple as the fact that the filters weren't actually there. Eurostar did claim to identify a problem quite quickly and would have their engineers making a modification over the last 24 hours - and I wonder if it is simple as fitting filters that they discovered weren't on there?

Snow fell earlier than normal, so I wonder if something held up the 'Winterisation' process or it simply wasn't done properly?

The truth will have to come out sooner or later though. Surely someone within engineering will be interviewed and spill the beans.
 

captainbigun

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In 'BR' terms winter starts 1st Nov and the winterisation would start from any exams occuring after then.

I'd guess that the Eurostars are on a balanced regime, so that would give greater opportunity to complete winterisation.

** EDIT **

I should explain that there are two main types of exam regime:

Cumulative - a combination of TOPS hours and/or mileage with calendar back stops against certain jobs (generally the consumable types, leaving a compressor running endlessly without adding oil for example generally doesn't work out well). Typically this would mean a vehicle/unit being maintained at least once a month, higher mileage would introduce more frequent maintenance.

Balanced - The exam content is the same as above but it's split over more shifts. This avoids a vehicle/unit being stood down for a number of days, or weeks for the bigger exams. So if a cumulative A exam takes 4 shifts for 2 men this could be split over 4 nights. For example if each traction motor is inspected on a balanced regime 1 motor would be inspected each night and so on.
 
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Justin Smith

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Aerials? You're confused. You're also confused about system strategy and engineering detail.

Aerials ? I`m happy for anyone to tell me anything, I `d never be so arrogant as to say I can`t learn something new, in fact I learn something new every day.

Let`s examine the facts which we know of.
We have thousands of desperate passngers wanting to get from St Pancras to Paris, and in the other direction.
We have a newly built railway which has hardly any traffic on it.
We have a tunnel with loads of spare paths, it must have because half the traffic is off the road, or should that be off the rails.
If those in authority can`t sort something out, then something is very, very, very wrong.
 

Old Timer

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I am waiting for some facts to come out before commenting.

I find some of the uninformed, gung ho commentary to be boring and on the verge of being laughable, which is why I do not see a need to say any more.

Maybe some of these self appointed experts could now tell us what caused Air France flight AF447 to disappear in the ITCZ last June, because neither ASF nor AI seem to want to say much.

The operation of railways is governed by National and International Standards, which are legally mandated. This is especially the case in respect of the Channel Tunnel.

Whilst it is fine for posters on here to scoff at the application of health and safety law, I can assure them that HMRI are not wary of taking action for breaches.

The HASAW Act 1974 requires proof of innocence in H&S and mandates personal penalties for those who do not.

No Company that is properly organised and run will ignore H&S neither will it treat it with the contempt that some on here have done.

The same applies to Procedures which are a requirement of ISO 9001/9002, where non-compliance can result in the removal of such Approval.

It sounds like one or two people may be responsible for ordering the stationery judging by the commentary that I have read. The various comments about Value Engineering contradict pre-stated views by others that everything should be engineered for once in a lifetime failures, and the understanding of the economics of all this is woeful.

It all sounds the sort of thing I would expect to hear in the local pub.

A good friend of mine runs his own Company, its just him, although MD on the business card is usually good for picking up a companion for the evening.

OL Leigh/Captainbigun/Royaloak
You all make good points as usual but is the audience listening or not, in which case is it worth it ?
 

Geezertronic

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OL Leigh/Captainbigun/Royaloak
You all make good points as usual but is the audience listening or not, in which case is it worth it ?

It is indeed worth it because I for one am learning from you guys. Until now, I didn't find the need to post because I didn't have anything valid to offer to the conversation, apart from now and that is only to say I am in the listening brigade :D
 

Micky Redmire

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I'm always learning. In my job, every day is a school day.

OK, so let me explain how an electric train divides up the power it uses. Stop me if I'm going too fast. ......O L Leigh
Thanks for the info, your typing speed is higher than mine!
The element I was uncertain about was the means to supply life safety systems eg lighting, ventilation. My understanding is that the fault protection for the traction motor circuit can also disconnect the life safety system, my suggestion is that this should not occur, my proposal is that either the life safety system has a dedicated connection to the pantograph, so irrespective of any fault conditions affecting the traction circuit, lighting and ventilation are still effective; or the life safety system can utilise a secondary pantograph in a static situation, the traction circuit can disconnect, the primary pantograph can disconnect but the passenger environment remains as per design. This should eliminate the reported lack of lighting and ventilation.

Once again, thanks for taking the time to type your posting ... and please don't spoil my perception by telling me it was a copy and paste!
 

captainbigun

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Thanks for the info, your typing speed is higher than mine!
The element I was uncertain about was the means to supply life safety systems eg lighting, ventilation. My understanding is that the fault protection for the traction motor circuit can also disconnect the life safety system, my suggestion is that this should not occur, my proposal is that either the life safety system has a dedicated connection to the pantograph, so irrespective of any fault conditions affecting the traction circuit, lighting and ventilation are still effective; or the life safety system can utilise a secondary pantograph in a static situation, the traction circuit can disconnect, the primary pantograph can disconnect but the passenger environment remains as per design. This should eliminate the reported lack of lighting and ventilation.

Once again, thanks for taking the time to type your posting ... and please don't spoil my perception by telling me it was a copy and paste!

May I suggest you utilise the t'interweb to better understand traction systems and the constraints they operate in.

Having a totally separate supply for auxiliaries would mean in the extreme, an additional pan, VCB and transformer. Have you seen the size of an oil cooled and insulated transformer? Splitting that into two adds extreme cost, significant weight and clearly in every traction designer's view is unecessary.
 

Micky Redmire

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What has that to do with anything...? The need to recover 5 sets from the tunnel only occurs when 5 sets fail down there. And, as I said, how often does that happen? So far, once in 15 years.

While we're talking odds, would you like to make a confident prediction about when this might happen next?

What you consider to be "efficient" is a moot point. What is speed if safety is compromised? It may have taken longer than was ideal, but all 5 sets were recovered and were recovered safely.

O L Leigh

Confident prediction? Insufficient information to assess. But probably sometime within the next 15 years, feel free to make a note in your 2024 diary..

Efficient recovery? This should be detailed in the spec, I don't have a copy of the spec. In the absence of a spec, and given my current understanding of the provision of life safety systems on the sets, I suggest that the strategy should be 1.5 hours max from entrapment to tunnel exit and a further 30mins to exit the set. This gives 2 hours max, which neatly matches the typical performance of many emergency light fittings. My personal experience of entrapment within a deep level tube is that 45 minutes is probably the limit for many people in a restricted space, I recognise that Eurostar is not as cramped as a Victoria Line tube carriage.

Detail design for recovery? I'd start with recovery locomotives on permanent 15 minute notice to tunnel entry, all it needs is someone to write the cheque ... as always.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
May I suggest you utilise the t'interweb to better understand traction systems and the constraints they operate in.

Having a totally separate supply for auxiliaries would mean in the extreme, an additional pan, VCB and transformer. Have you seen the size of an oil cooled and insulated transformer? Splitting that into two adds extreme cost, significant weight and clearly in every traction designer's view is unecessary.
Please quantify.
 

Micky Redmire

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I have not come up with a solution, nor do I have claimed to have done so. You are reading too much into posts.

I'm not going to play silly games when it is clear for all to see that I have not posted a solution or claimed to have one.
I'm sure you indicated that someone, somewhere has posted a solution, if I've misunderstood your post then I apologise..
 
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