Channel Tunnel Problem

[Micky Redmire]

Alas, there are railway group standards to adhere to, plus another load of regulations to run on Eurotunnel's infrastructure. Trains don't lend themselves to being temperature controlled. Walking through an AC loco is likely to be an education to most.

If the standards/regs require a lower temp for longer duration then modify the model. Also ensure that the model includes big snow flakes, small snow flakes, very small snow flakes and very, very small snowflakes.

AC loco = a machine, it's not as if we are dealing with steam you know

 

[captainbigun]

Maybe you should send your CV off to Paris, you seem to have all the answers!

 

[philjo]

Presumably they have some trains in the UK that are actually working.

From the report I saw on the news, the problem was the extreme cold in Northern France, compared to the temperature inside the tunnel. Being near the coast, the outside temperature around Calais will be similar to that in England.
Wouldn't it be possible to run a St Pancras-Calais Frethun shuttle, then run a connecting Eurostar service from Calais to Paris/Brussels so that those units running in France don't need to enter the tunnel (or arrange for a TGV to pick them up)

 

[Justin Smith]

Eurostar are organising hotels for stranded people, and getting them on a train when the line re-opens. There is not much more they can do.

Of course they can.
It just requires some imagination and a can do attitude.
Are you telling me there is no rolling stock in the entire country they could get their hands on to ferry people to Folkstone ?
Then do whatever they have to to get people under the channel. Use road coaches on the Shuttle trains if they have to, or rail coaches hauled by a Shuttle loco. I don`t know but they must be able to do something imaginative.
Bend the rules a bit if they have to.
Just giving up is pathetic. They never used to do that in the past.
Sometimes I`m ashamed to live in the 21st century.

Incidentally, whilst those poor passengers were stuck for interminable hours in hellish conditions under the channel, what were the Shuttle locos doing ?
Why couldn`t they use them to haul the Eurostars out of the tunnel ?
Or those diesel locos Eurotunnel have got.
Or any bleedin` loco come to that.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Presumably they have some trains in the UK that are actually working.

From the report I saw on the news, the problem was the extreme cold in Northern France, compared to the temperature inside the tunnel. Being near the coast, the outside temperature around Calais will be similar to that in England.
Wouldn't it be possible to run a St Pancras-Calais Frethun shuttle, then run a connecting Eurostar service from Calais to Paris/Brussels so that those units running in France don't need to enter the tunnel (or arrange for a TGV to pick them up)

Absolutely.
But just shrugging your shoulders and giving up is easier......

 

[Micky Redmire]

Maybe you should send your CV off to Paris, you seem to have all the answers!

That's very kind of you, thanks ..

 

[Justin Smith]

Maybe you should send your CV off to Paris, you seem to have all the answers!

These large organisations aren`t interested in imaginative answers.
I`d hate to work for them.
That`s why I`ve got my own business. I can do exactly what I want without people telling me "you can`t do that, we`ve no paperwork for it". That is the attitude which has helped cause this disaster and the even more pathetic response to it.

 

[philjo]

I see from BBC news that Christopher Garnett will be leading an investigation into this, which from his previous reputation with passenger service at GNER sounds encouraging.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

How did that cause the disaster? Please explain.

 

[Justin Smith]

Inconvenience and wasted time is better than causing someones death do you not think ?

Well, no actually. And if you think about it nobody else does either.
The evidence is all about you.
If you took that statement at face value (and I concede that at face value it seems reasonable) no trains would exceed 60mph, and would have rear facing seats and 4 point harnesses which passengers would have to wear by law.
Authorising trains for 125mph ? That`d kill (some) people wouldn`t it ?
Yes it does, but not many relative to the numbers of people who gain advantage from it.
It`s all about balance. How much risk, for how much advantage ?
In fact that simple question is what life is all about.

 

[captainbigun]

Well, Mr Smith, I certainly hope that I don't cross paths with your outfit. You've just shown total disregard for life and whether you're a plumber or a multi-national company that's unacceptable.

Perhaps with your wealth of knowledge in logistics and rolling stock you'd like to explain to us all how this could have been handled. Clearly Eurotunnel handled it badly but we don't know all of the facts so we can't pass ultimate judgement, which appears to be what you're dishing out.

 

[EM2]

Mickey:
You give us a long list of things that Eurostar are doing. How do you know that this isn't all being done already?

Justin:
You tell us how they should 'think outside the box' to solve this issue.
Bear in mind that just about every plane seat and coach seat on scheduled services is already full.
And to take all the passengers off a full Eurostar needs twelve road coaches. And there's 47 Eurostars a day. So that's a minimum of 564 coaches and drivers you need to find.
They did evacuate customers from two Eurostars onto empty Le Shuttle trains and customers complained about that because they had to sit on the floor.

 

[Micky Redmire]

Mickey:
You give us a long list of things that Eurostar are doing. How do you know that this isn't all being done already?

Cost and timescales.

 

[captainbigun]

But Micky, you don't seem to understand the setup. The OEM, Alstom built these trains 15+ years ago, the warranty ran out. Eurostar maintain so how can the OEM be held responsible?

 

[royaloak]

All these self righteous prats saying "think out the box" and "bend the rules" etc, did you know there are rules and regulations that have to be adhered to otherwise see you in court, and "I did the wrong thing (broke the rules) for the right reasons" won't cut it as a defence.
"There must be some rolling stock around the country we can use" okay go find it (correctly certified) and locos (correctly certified) and crews (traction/ route knowledge/ sufficient hours etc) and get on with it.

Its easy on the outside looking in where 75% of problems are not known about, or as appears to be one poster with his own firm, ignored. Has he not heard about H&S at work act!

 

[EM2]

Procure sufficient locomotives to haul 7 dead sets out of one tunnel, these locomotives to be on permanent standby, with, say, 4 additional out of service undergoing maintenance.
Install sufficient secondary power supplies, food, water medical equipment etc to enable 7 fully laden failed sets to maintain a comfortable environment for 24 hours and a survivable environment for 60 hours.

Whether Eusrostar procure rescue locos is neither here or there, because operations within the tunnel is down to Eurotunnel and it is their decision when or if any rescue loco can enter the tunnel. Rescue operations are entirely down to Eurotunnel.

All these extra power supplies and emergency equipment you want trains to carry. Where is it going to be fitted or stored? How much extra weight is it going to add to a fully-laden set? How is that going to affect speed and acceleration? What damage or extra wear is that extra weight going to do to the track?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
From the Eurostar website:

As a result of the test runs that were conducted today we now understand the cause of the disruption over the weekend and have identified the modifications that are required.

As we suspected, the acute weather conditions in northern France have caused the disruption. Every year we carry out a ‘winterisation’ programme of the entire fleet which to date has successfully protected our trains. We now know, however, that we need to further enhance the snow screens and snow shields in the power cars of the trains.

 

[Justin Smith]

You tell us how they should 'think outside the box' to solve this issue.
Bear in mind that just about every plane seat and coach seat on scheduled services is already full.
And to take all the passengers off a full Eurostar needs twelve road coaches. And there's 47 Eurostars a day. So that's a minimum of 564 coaches and drivers you need to find.

All we do know, is that they didn`t do anything at all.
That`s pathetic.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well, Mr Smith, I certainly hope that I don't cross paths with your outfit. You've just shown total disregard for life and whether you're a plumber or a multi-national company that's unacceptable.

I don`t think you understand the point I`m making.
There`s risk in absolutely everything we do.
You cannot eliminate risk completely, it`s impossible.
I watched a programme on it a few years back and a certain mumber of people get killed getting out of bed every year, I mean literally just getting out of bed.

It`s a simple equation Risk v Advantage (from that risk).

Just leaving all those people in awful conditions in a tunnel has a cost, and indeed a risk in itself. The same applies to leaving thousands stranded by not trying to sort out any alternatives.

 

[EM2]

All we do know, is that they didn`t do anything at all.
That`s pathetic.

There is evidence that Eurostar *are* making arrangements for people to get away for Christmas, but a number of alternatives are just not available. Sp, what they should be doing? You're very keen to tell us everything that Eurostar is doing wrong and yet you haven't come up with a single workable solution to solve the problem.

From the Daily Mail:

Ferry operator P&O last night laid on a fleet of coaches to get the passengers across the Channel and on to Paris or Brussels.
Spokesman Chris Laming said: 'Passengers who haven't been able to use Eurostar have been coming to Dover under their own steam by domestic rail services.
'To avoid them having to spend a night at terminals in either Calais or Dover, we're putting on these coaches to enable them to get across the Channel and get on with what they want to do.
'At one point we had 500 Eurostar passengers at Dover and at Calais. We've spoken to Eurostar about this arrangement and they've agreed to pick up the tab'
.....
Last night, a spokesman for the Port of Dover said: 'The port remains open and able to receive ferries.
'However, the French authorities have prohibited traffic from leaving the Port of Calais owing to the treacherous road conditions, which has left four ferries unable to berth and offload their traffic.
'The knock-on effect of this is that the port is congested with traffic which is unable at present to sail to Calais (P&O and SeaFrance). Traffic is queuing on the A20 into Dover.
'In the meantime, customers intending to sail to Calais are advised not to set out for the port without checking with their operator first.'
.....
Nearly half of all flights out of Paris' Charles de Gaulle and Orly airports were suspended yesterday afternoon, with more cancellations forecast for today. Belgium was also badly hit, with passengers in Brussels lining up for hours in an effort to rebook flights.
Budget airline EasyJet, which had to cancel a number of flights today, reported that French aviation authorities had imposed flight restrictions on its aircraft at Charles de Gaulle.

So, with all that in mind, what's your solution?

 

[Justin Smith]

All these self righteous prats saying "think out the box" and "bend the rules" etc, did you know there are rules and regulations that have to be adhered to otherwise see you in court, and "I did the wrong thing (broke the rules) for the right reasons" won't cut it as a defence.
"There must be some rolling stock around the country we can use" okay go find it (correctly certified) and locos (correctly certified) and crews (traction/ route knowledge/ sufficient hours etc) and get on with it.

Its easy on the outside looking in where 75% of problems are not known about, or as appears to be one poster with his own firm, ignored. Has he not heard about H&S at work act!

Self Righteous ?
I agree with you completely, Eurostar are just that.

You`ve just said that you don`t think anything should be done without the relevant paperwork.
So what happens if a situation arises that they don`t have the relevant paper work for ?
Nothing ?
Well that`s what`s happened here.
You might think that`s acceptable.
I don`t, and I reckon you could go down to St Pancras and find a few thousand who wouldn`t agree with you either.

 

[Electrostar]

Still no explaination as to why St Pancras staff managed to organise transport for vulnerable passengers heading to France and Belgium but this arrangement wasn't recipricated for London bound passengers. Did someone shrug their shoulders and say "C'est la vie"?

 

[Justin Smith]

Well, what they should be doing? You're very keen to tell us everything that Eurostar is doing wrong and yet you haven't come up with a single workable solution to solve the problem.

It depends what you mean by workable.
My expertise is aerials.
In life you try something then if that doesn`t work you try something else and you keep trying things till something works.
You don`t just give up and blame Health and Safety.
Or perhaps they do these days......

 

[Micky Redmire]

But Micky, you don't seem to understand the setup. The OEM, Alstom built these trains 15+ years ago, the warranty ran out. Eurostar maintain so how can the OEM be held responsible?

Liability can extend far beyond any warranty period, potentially for the life of the equipment. But you knew that anyway .....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Whether Eusrostar procure rescue locos is neither here or there, because operations within the tunnel is down to Eurotunnel and it is their decision when or if any rescue loco can enter the tunnel. Rescue operations are entirely down to Eurotunnel.

OK, for Eurostar read Eurotunnel, that's that fixed.

All these extra power supplies and emergency equipment you want trains to carry. Where is it going to be fitted or stored? How much extra weight is it going to add to a fully-laden set? How is that going to affect speed and acceleration? What damage or extra wear is that extra weight going to do to the track?

All good questions, but mere detail in reality. All should be addressed by the designer, it could initially be a trade-off, eg lose 5% of seating capacity for survival packs. Of course, that 5% could equal the profit margin, so end result might be increased fares, all part of the VE process though. External power supply in each tunnel with suitable socket outlets for stranded sets would be a good starting point, as would a permanent potable water supply. It would be interesting to see the risk assessment for dealing with 5 stranded sets ..

 

[captainbigun]

Liability can extend far beyond any warranty period, potentially for the life of the equipment. But you knew that anyway .......

Possibly, but having had someone else maintain and modify your equipment it's difficult to pin liability. Alstom will assist as it makes commercial sense for them to do so not because they have to.

All good questions, but mere detail in reality. All should be addressed by the designer, it could initially be a trade-off, eg lose 5% of seating capacity for survival packs. Of course, that 5% could equal the profit margin, so end result might be increased fares, all part of the VE process though. External power supply in each tunnel with suitable socket outlets for stranded sets would be a good starting point, as would a permanent potable water supply. It would be interesting to see the risk assessment for dealing with 5 stranded sets ..

Note that this was a traction fault, not an auxiliary supply fault. You may have noted that the set that was dragged to STP did so with its pans up. It isn't clear whether the supply was isolated or pans were lowered on some sets as a precaution. Providing a suitable power supply in the tunnel isn't really realistic.

 

[Justin Smith]

They did evacuate customers from two Eurostars onto empty Le Shuttle trains and customers complained about that because they had to sit on the floor.

As can be gathered by my posts on this thread I have the utmost sympathy for the passengers in all this, but not those whining gits.....
Why would they complain about that, when they`ve just been stuck in a train for hours on end and they`re been evacuated ?
Are they "all there" (if you know what I mean) ?

 

[EM2]

I've just been sent this link to a Eurotunnel press release:
http://www.eurotunnel.com/NR/rdonly...31DD7/0/091219Eurotunnel_rescues_Eurostar.pdf

Just how smug can they get?!

 

[Micky Redmire]

Possibly, but having had someone else maintain and modify your equipment it's difficult to pin liability. Alstom will assist as it makes commercial sense for them to do so not because they have to.

If it's a failure of design eg insufficient protection, then who maintains it is irrelevant. If the system is maintained in compliance with the manufacturer's requirements then liability can still exist many years after installation for issues that may be maintenance related. A good, detailed spec and Employer's Requirements will deal with all this.

Note that this was a traction fault, not an auxiliary supply fault. You may have noted that the set that was dragged to STP did so with its pans up. It isn't clear whether the supply was isolated or pans were lowered on some sets as a precaution.

My limited understanding of the situation is that the non-traction power supply failed, leading to lack of lighting and ventilation. Is the non-traction power supply tapped from the traction power supply?

Providing a suitable power supply in the tunnel isn't really realistic.

Why not? A good designer would have ensured that there is physically sufficient space to run additional cabling through the tunnel at a later stage, changeover switchgear to be installed on the set and a standard operating procedure to permit an authorised person to get off the train/or access from service tunnel to plug it in. Decent lighting would have been useful during the entrapment, ventilation would have been a bonus.
All costs money though ..
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've just been sent this link to a Eurotunnel press release:
http://www.eurotunnel.com/NR/rdonly...31DD7/0/091219Eurotunnel_rescues_Eurostar.pdf

Just how smug can they get?!

A bit below the belt from Eurotunnel, although it's easy enough to knock holes in the document:

* Eurotunnel locomotives and Shuttles are prepared and maintained so that they are not affected by rapid temperature changes.

Really? I would be pleased to test this statement, my fees are always reasonable

I wonder if Eurostar/Eurotunnel realise that most punters view them as one and the same?

Who is contractually required to effect recovery?

 

[EM2]

Oh dear. Le Shuttle is now closed to new arrivals too:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8424646.stm

 

[captainbigun]

If it's a failure of design eg insufficient protection, then who maintains it is irrelevant. If the system is maintained in compliance with the manufacturer's requirements then liability can still exist many years after installation for issues that may be maintenance related. A good, detailed spec and Employer's Requirements will deal with all this.

Ha ha, you haven't had many dealings with a ROSCO then. All very well quoting the book, but I can assure you that it is far from as simple as you paint.

My limited understanding of the situation is that the non-traction power supply failed, leading to lack of lighting and ventilation. Is the non-traction power supply tapped from the traction power supply?

Nope, not correct, common bloc didn't fail. This is a traction fault.

Why not? A good designer would have ensured that there is physically sufficient space to run additional cabling through the tunnel at a later stage, changeover switchgear to be installed on the set and a standard operating procedure to permit an authorised person to get off the train/or access from service tunnel to plug it in. Decent lighting would have been useful during the entrapment, ventilation would have been a bonus.
All costs money though ..

Yes, it does all cost money. You could equally apply this to LU or any other tunnel network. The supply demands for a half Eurostar set's auxiliaries are massive. Is there a business case? I suspect not.

Who is contractually required to effect recovery?

Eurotunnel have the contract.

 

[Micky Redmire]

Ha ha, you haven't had many dealings with a ROSCO then. All very well quoting the book, but I can assure you that it is far from as simple as you paint.

It's the starting point, the spec and the contract will not be flawless, and the result will almost invariably be negotiated, no-one wants a court case (except the lawyers of course).

Nope, not correct, common bloc didn't fail. This is a traction fault.

Several news reports state lack of lighting and ventilation.

Yes, it does all cost money. You could equally apply this to LU or any other tunnel network. The supply demands for a half Eurostar set's auxiliaries are massive. Is there a business case? I suspect not.

LU construction/maintenance specifications and contract conditions are rigorous to say the least, probably 3rd in the hierarchy after nuclear and petrochem in the field I'm in, the contract costs reflect this. Sadly, the business case generally follows after a fatality, Kings Cross being a prime
example.

Eurotunnel have the contract.

Ohh, I wonder if the Eurotunnel press release actionable.

 

[captainbigun]

Several news reports state lack of lighting and ventilation.

Yes, but there are a number of potential reasons why that was the case. The VCB may have opened due to the fault, although I'd expect the secondary protection to have operated first. If the VCB had opened it could be that the crew didn't want to risk re-closing. Or, perhaps the crew chose to drop the pan. All supposition of course, but as I said above at least one set was towed pan up. It is definitely a traction fault.

LU construction/maintenance specifications and contract conditions are rigorous to say the least, probably 3rd in the hierarchy after nuclear and petrochem in the field I'm in, the contract costs reflect this. Sadly, the business case generally follows after a fatality, Kings Cross being a prime example.

And don't we all know it!

KX is a bit of an extreme example as a comparison, there was no fire here. Don't forget there has been a fire in one of the tunnels, and that was dealt with well by all accounts. I don't think there is any suggestion in this instance that there was a potential for fatalities, but I'm not taking away how unpleasant it must have been.

 

[CosherB]

A 'rail expert' on BBC R4 news at lunchtime made the point that Eurostars have been running through the tunnel for 15 years, and it's not the first time it's been cold in France and hot in the tunnel.

He reckons Eurostar might have changed something on the trains in the last year or so which has introduced the possibility of these failures. We've had these conditions before, but they didn't cause the chaos we've seen this time.