Channel Tunnel Problem

[CosherB]

Beeb news just now (10:30 Sunday night) is talking about problems with snow screens! That Eurostar is going to run test trains with different screens.

That makes no sense to me. The trains ran fine in France (where I don't think it was even snowing - just verry cold), and failed in the tunnel, which supports what I posted earlier about condensation onto HV equipment being the problem.

 

[Justin Smith]

If those stranded in London can be put on a 395 down to Dover & ferry onwards, why can't those stuck in Paris etc be put on TGVs to Calais Frethun & ferry back to the UK?

Or alternatively, why not charter an aircraft or two? Money, that's why.

I've just seen the head of communications of Eurostar on BBC News apologising for the delays. Crocodile tears, methinks.

This involves thinking outside the box and being flexible, just what large organisations are so bad at....
I often think back to when GNER withdrew all the Mk4 stock following the Sandy incident when a wheel disintegrated due to undiagnosed cracks.
I thought at the time it was a massive over reaction, and I still do, but I`ll always remember the news reports of a West Yorks class 321 batting down the ECML to try and provide some sort of service. OK it`s uncomfortable and slow compared to a MK4 set but if you were desperate to get to London at the time it`d be far better than nothing.......
Eurostar should have used any rolling stock they could get their hands on to get their passengers to Folkstone, and then on to France by any means necessary, even using coaches on the Shuttles if there was no other option.
Pacers flat out down High Speed One anyone ? !

 

[Old Timer]

....
I often think back to when GNER withdrew all the Mk4 stock following the Sandy incident when a wheel disintegrated due to undiagnosed cracks.
I thought at the time it was a massive over reaction, and I still do, ..... !

Ah.......... the innocence of someone who doesn't have to make the decisions. :roll:

 

[Justin Smith]

Ah.......... the innocence of someone who doesn't have to make the decisions. :roll:

I`ll make the decisions, don`t you worry about that, I do it every day in my own business.
As far as I see it, and correct me where I`m wrong, Eurostar, and all TOCs (I hate that term.....), exist to provide transport to passengers. They have a responsibility to do that. My heart really went out to those passengers waiting at St Pancras for trains which weren`t going anywhere. Some had no where to go and were utterly desperate. To them Pacers rattling down High Speed One would have seemed like deliverance.

It`s the old chestnut isn`t it, Health and Safety v Getting things done in the real world, where risk exists.
Too many people are s**t scared to do anything in case anything goes wrong and they get it in the neck. They need a bit of backbone.

Question, which I don`t neccessarily know the answer to.
If, for the sake of the argument, Eurostar could have come up with a solution which involved a bit of risk but solved the whole situation at the time, thus relieving thousands, possibly tens of thousands, of people of a hell of a lot of inconvenince wasted time and stress, but somebody would have got seriously injured, or even killed, would that have been the correct decision ?

If your answer is no it`d be the wrong decision, then a supplementary question is how much inconvenience and wasted time would have to be endured until it would be the right decision ?

Difficult questions........

 

[boing_uk]

If, for the sake of the argument, Eurostar could have come up with a solution which involved a bit of risk but solved the whole situation at the time, thus relieving thousands, possibly tens of thousands, of people of a hell of a lot of inconvenince wasted time and stress, but somebody would have got seriously injured, or even killed, would that have been the correct decision ?

If your answer is no it`d be the wrong decision, then a supplementary question is how much inconvenience and wasted time would have to be endured until it would be the right decision ?

Inconvenience and wasted time is better than causing someones death do you not think?

Looking back through the history of transport disasters, its been the times when shortcuts have been made that have cost lives... dozens of lives, if not hundreds, in one fell swoop.

HOWEVER, if, for example, there was a way around the problem which wasnt strictly within the rules, but got the job done - however unconventional - and all the risks are accounted for and managed appropriately, then the only question should be is how to something... not why we can't do something.

However as observers, the majority of us can never comprehend all the technicalities as to why something that on the surface may seem simple simply cannot be done for whatever reason.

 

[Old Timer]

boing UK
There is not much to add to that other than to observe the arrogance of people outside the Industry who think they have all the answers. That is why the Industry is actually collapsing in on itself.

 

[boing_uk]

OT, I know what you mean all too well. Its the same in highways...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What I cannot understand, and I hope that someone can point me in the right direction here, is why normal trains passenger trains are not allowed in to the tunnel?

Lord Berkely makes an interesting point:

"I remind noble Lords that the Swiss are building two tunnels under the Alps about the same length—two, not one, at the same time—and there is none of this rubbish. All trains that will be allowed to run on the Swiss track will be able to go through these tunnels. The first, the Lotschberg, opens this coming autumn. Maybe our rail group should visit it next year. But we make life difficult for ourselves with all these petty regulations which do not seem to have much benefit. "

What DOES make the CT more special than these other tunnels?

 

[O L Leigh]

Beeb news just now (10:30 Sunday night) is talking about problems with snow screens! That Eurostar is going to run test trains with different screens.

That makes no sense to me. The trains ran fine in France (where I don't think it was even snowing - just verry cold), and failed in the tunnel, which supports what I posted earlier about condensation onto HV equipment being the problem.

It's a combination of factors. I certainly didn't completely buy the condensation theory because every winter these trains go from cold/dry to warm/humid and it has never caused a problem before. However, snow ingress into critical electrical systems would certainly do for an electric train.

I notice that Eurostar are being very careful not to attract further ridicule by blaming "the wrong type of snow", but this appears to be precisely what the cause of the failures is. The problem at the moment is that the extreme cold weather has created a kind of "dry" snow made up of very fine ice particles. These behave very differently to the more usual fluffy snow that we see most winters because it doesn't stick when it falls and is very easily blown around even when it is on the ground. It is this very fine "dry" snow that has been beating the snow screens and getting into parts of the train where it shouldn't reach. There it lodges until the train reaches "the pipe" where the warmer temperature melts the snow and plays merry hell with the electrics. While it remains frozen it is benign and causes no ill-effects to the train, which is why they would have all failed in the tunnel because that is the first place where the temperatures would have increased sufficiently to cause melting.

As for the procedures for dealing with five sets failed in "the pipe", such a situation just isn't conceivable except under the most extreme and freakish of conditions. One set failing is rare. One set failing in "the pipe" is rarer still. Having five sets all failed at the same time in "the pipe" is verging on lottery odds. Not even a dewirement would cause this number of stranded trains due to the nature of the power supply. In 15 years of operation nothing even approaching this scale of incident has happened, and it is likely to be at least another 15 years before all the factors that combined to create these failures combine again.

O L Leigh

 

[EM2]

Boing:
The signalling on HS1 is unique in the UK for a start, I believe there is no other UK stock that is compatible.
Secondly, any stock has to be compatible with French signalling, even it's only for a short distance.

 

[jon0844]

I did notice when I took some photos of the downfall of snow last night that it was HUGE in comparison to any snow I've seen before (here or abroad - and that even applies to the snow we got Thursday night). Even the wife commented on it looking odd, and she grew up in Sweden.

It was like watching giant white-coloured Quaver crisps falling.

Now this was up in east Anglia, a day later and the opposite of what is suggested (smaller, finer, snow), but I can well believe that there was something 'unique' about the snow that fell down there too.

I only need to drive 15 miles for there to be no snow, yet up here we're covered in the stuff and it isn't melting. So, there could well be very localised weather conditions making huge differences - and I wonder how much data the Met Office (and the French equivalent) will have to help any further investigation. At high-speed and in the dark, it must be hard to know what the exact conditions were.

 

[O L Leigh]

Perhaps I should just be very specific before lots of people post and say that my snow report is wrong based on what they've seen out of their own living room windows by stating that the extreme cold temperatures I referred to above are reportedly affecting Northern France.

O L Leigh

 

[jon0844]

I am not saying you're wrong at all.

The snow was totally different on Thursday night/Friday morning to what it was on Saturday morning. I can well believe it was totally different in France too.

The temperature and humidity makes a big difference. In Kent, when they got the snow they also had a rather nasty thunder storm at the same time.

 

[O L Leigh]

I know you weren't. But equally I know what this forum can be like at times. I was just covering my backside before the inevitable kicked off.

O L Leigh

 

[boing_uk]

Boing:
The signalling on HS1 is unique in the UK for a start, I believe there is no other UK stock that is compatible.
Secondly, any stock has to be compatible with French signalling, even it's only for a short distance.

Erm... arent Class 92's compatible with the Channel Tunnel? I know they dont have TVM430 yet(?), but we're not talking about moving them over HS1... we're talking about running them through the tunnel.

And as for any other UK stock with TVM430 signalling equipment... one word... Javelins.

EDIT: Okay, having had a google around, the Class 92's were for freight trains through the tunnel, and eurotunnel say their signalling is TVM430... yet a press release from DBS says that the 92's are to be modified to TVM parameters. So, which is it?

 

[EM2]

Erm... arent Class 92's compatible with the Channel Tunnel? I know they dont have TVM430 yet, but we're not talking about moving them over HS1... we're talking about running them through the tunnel.

Eurotunnel have 5 Class 92s at Europorte 2, and 5 are sitting OOU at Crewe Electric. I guess a number would have been spread far and wide across the country, actually working. And can they actually couple to a Eurostar?

And as for any other UK stock with TVM430 signalling equipment... one word... Javelins.

Good point. But some Javelins were in use well past midnight on Friday night, and the ones that weren't would have to be moved from Ramsgate, Faversham and Ashford. Where are the crews? Many of them won't be available as they've already worked a full day. And with the Shuttle terminal at Cheriton jammed, where are they going to meet the trains that (in theory) have been pulled out?

 

[90019]

And can they actually couple to a Eurostar?

I don't think they can, as the 373s have Scharfenberg couplers on the ends IIRC.
Aren't there match wagons around somewhere though?

 

[Lampshade]

Maybe Southeastern High Speed could honour Eurostar tickets on its Dover services tomorrow to enable at least some of the backlog to be cleared.

 

[EM2]

Maybe Southeastern High Speed could honour Eurostar tickets on its Dover services tomorrow to enable at least some of the backlog to be cleared.

They have done today, not sure about tomorrow.

 

[boing_uk]

I don't think they can, as the 373s have Scharfenberg couplers on the ends IIRC.
Aren't there match wagons around somewhere though?

You dont need a match wagon. Eurostars carry an emergency coupler kit to enable them to be coupled to a standard loco.

http://michael170.fotopic.net/p45150245.html

 

[O L Leigh]

The problem with the Electro-Tugs sat at Crewe is that they are stored and would need an exam before being returned to service. You can't just stick a key in them and expect them to run.

Besides, as you correctly identify, they can't couple directly to a Eurostar anyway and would require a translator. There are 4 such translators at Temple Mills and I would anticipate that there are a few at Le Landy also, but they would need to be collected and that would require accessing HS1 in order to get into the depot, which Electro-Tugs cannot do because of the lack of TVM430. The only traction at Temple Mills other than the Eurostar sets is the Gronk, so that would be an extremely slow transfer. In any case, I'm not sure that the translators have any capacity to permit a loco's ETS to be used or even if the Eurostars themselves have a compatible socket. Not wonderfully ideal for moving dead trains out of "the pipe".

As for the Javelins, well an arrangement has now been reached with SET to run a few to Dover Priory to connect with the ferries in place of Eurostars. However, they would need clearance to use the tunnel. While they have TVM430 they were not designed for use in the tunnel and therefore may not meet the necessary requirements to be awarded clearance. In any case, you can't just nick another operator's trains and crew at such short notice.

You dont need a match wagon. Eurostars carry an emergency coupler kit to enable them to be coupled to a standard loco.

http://michael170.fotopic.net/p45150245.html

Interesting. I had guessed that such a kit existed but am wondering about the restrictions on it's use. I can see one air line, and just a very narrow gauge one at that, but nothing else and certainly no ETS connections.

In fact that air line is coded yellow for a main air connection, but at that gauge it's going to be an emergency supply only. I know how long it takes to blow up a 4 car Cl317 with something very similar to that, so heaven only knows how long it would take to blow up a dead Eurostar. I'm gratified to see that the Eurostar does at least have a brake air hose, but with the gap between that and the assisting loco thanks to the length of the emergency coupler adaptor I cannot see any way to connect it up to the brake air supply from the loco. This looks like a real emergency "all brakes isolated" type of movement.

O L Leigh

 

[jon0844]

If you can build a train station in a day or two, I am sure something could be set up (for future) to allow 395s through the tunnel if they can actually do so.

Even if just running as shuttles back and forth to get people transferred onto a different train on the French side.

I'd expect some sort of reciprocal agreement to be put in place. Couldn't a Eurostar train potentially bail out a 395 the other way around? Obviously it would have to be empty as you couldn't pick up people and dump them in International arrivals, or let them go on to France...

 

[O L Leigh]

Why not SET passing tickets to Ashford and a bus to Calais-Frethun via the Shuttle.

O L Leigh

 

[ukrob]

If you can build a train station in a day or two, I am sure something could be set up (for future) to allow 395s through the tunnel if they can actually do so.

Even if just running as shuttles back and forth to get people transferred onto a different train on the French side.

I'd expect some sort of reciprocal agreement to be put in place. Couldn't a Eurostar train potentially bail out a 395 the other way around? Obviously it would have to be empty as you couldn't pick up people and dump them in International arrivals, or let them go on to France...

Maybe I am missing something but why can't you just use a car shuttle ro move people instead? Why over-complicate things?

 

[captainbigun]

From the reports on the BBC from Eurostar this would appear to be a winterisation issue. Before and during the cold snap additional exam tasks are introduced to protect against the cold and the weather. This introduces various de-icing and ice preventation product (Killfrost range being a common one) and also snow curtains. Snow curtains are fitted inside grill areas where air is taken in. This should prevent snow and water getting into your main components. Historically our AC locos have suffered with snow in the choke compartments (91s especially, and the NXEA 90s not so long ago) with units, most recently the 325s into the motors due to the cover arrangement. Snow in a choke soon causes flashover and failure. Snow curtains should prevent this, but in certain conditions there are problems. As we all know.

Worth noting though, that whilst doesn't this doesn't appear to be the condensation issue, this HAS been an issue in the past.

 

[Micky Redmire]

BBC news at 0600 referred to the installation of "new technology", fusion power perhaps? Or tele-porting in some form? Nope, it's covers.

If it's inconceivable that 5 trains could fail in the tunnel then why did it happen?

IP68, closed circuit cooling system and value engineer down. I would use the winters of 1963 and 1947 as models, perhaps with an additional 10' of frost.

 

[Justin Smith]

Inconvenience and wasted time is better than causing someones death do you not think?

Looking back through the history of transport disasters, its been the times when shortcuts have been made that have cost lives... dozens of lives, if not hundreds, in one fell swoop.

HOWEVER, if, for example, there was a way around the problem which wasnt strictly within the rules, but got the job done - however unconventional - and all the risks are accounted for and managed appropriately, then the only question should be is how to something... not why we can't do something.

However as observers, the majority of us can never comprehend all the technicalities as to why something that on the surface may seem simple simply cannot be done for whatever reason.

It`s impossible to account for all risk. Trying to do that is why nothing has been done to help those poor passengers at St Pancras. That and a complete lack of motivation.
Let`s remember those passengers are what all this is about.
In fact in all cases of disruption, it`s about the passengers.
Let`s get our priorities right.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

boing UK
There is not much to add to that other than to observe the arrogance of people outside the Industry who think they have all the answers. That is why the Industry is actually collapsing in on itself.

I never said I had all the answers. What I said was the attitude wasn`t so much "can do", as "can`t do".

Arrogance you say ?
I agree with you there`s a massive amount of arrogance.
It`s coming from Eurostar.
All those desperate passengers, what do they say ?
Sorry it`s all been cancelled, and we aren`t making any other arrangements for you.
Now that`s what I call arrogance.
Heads should roll for this, and not just for the technical problem, but the Eurostar management`s reaction to it.
It`s completely inexcusable. Completely, and utterly.

 

[Micky Redmire]

Arrogance of those outside the industry? Can't possibly refer to me then, I've worked as a contractor on underground and overground for the last 30 years.

Principles of design do not alter from sector to sector. If it might happen then design for it, if it won't happen then don't design for it, but the organisation making the "won't happen, save money" decision needs to be accountable.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Eurostar are organising hotels for stranded people, and getting them on a train when the line re-opens. There is not much more they can do.

 

[Micky Redmire]

Eurostar are organising hotels for stranded people, and getting them on a train when the line re-opens. There is not much more they can do.

Nonsense. Initially, Eurostar can undertake a preliminary investigation of the issue, draft report to be available in 10 working days. to be followed by the full report in 90 working days, then:

Require the design team to account for any failures in design (tunnel and sets)
Require the construction team to account for any failures in construction
Require the set vendor to account for any failures in design and construction of the sets
Require the maintenance team to account for any failures in maintenance, testing and inspection (tunnel and sets)
Require the operation team to account for any failures in operation (was a set sent into the tunnel with a failed set ahead?)
Procure sufficient locomotives to haul 7 dead sets out of one tunnel, these locomotives to be on permanent standby, with, say, 4 additional out of service undergoing maintenance.
Install sufficient secondary power supplies, food, water medical equipment etc to enable 7 fully laden failed sets to maintain a comfortable environment for 24 hours and a survivable environment for 60 hours.

Just needs someone to sign the cheque ..

 

[captainbigun]

IP68, closed circuit cooling system and value engineer down. I would use the winters of 1963 and 1947 as models, perhaps with an additional 10' of frost.

Alas, there are railway group standards to adhere to, plus another load of regulations to run on Eurotunnel's infrastructure. Trains don't lend themselves to being temperature controlled. Walking through an AC loco is likely to be an education to most.