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Channel Tunnel Problem

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captainbigun

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As has been alluded to the problem is (and has been on numerous occasions before, though with on a smaller scale) the cold trains entering a warm and damp environment. Condensation suddenly forms on the equipment and insulation breakdown and flashovers become a likelihood.

It's not the first time, it won't be the last.
 
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news at 8pm sat. there won't be channel tunnel trains running sunday! so the poor people have been disrupted enough, why isn't there an emergency state of affairs plan put into operation and use a diesel electric train to get the people across the channel? if the rescue locos got it out then other non-electric trains should be able to go in.
 

John @ home

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Local ITV said they were hooing to run 3 emergency trains with and i quote now "another type of train that isnt badly affected by the weather" Now i dont know what "Other Trains" eurostar has
As far as I know, the only non-Eurostar and non-Eurotunnel trains with experience of carrying passengers through the Channel Tunnel are 319008 and 319009 on 10 December 1993.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_319
 

Electrostar

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Sky News is reporting that another Eurostar broke down tonight at 6:30pm at Thurrock en route to St Pancras. They report it's still there four hours later with all services cancelled tomorrow.
 

CosherB

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And since when has water on the wires been a problem when they run in the rain all the time with no problem?

So a E* goes bombing through the snowy countryside at 186mph, along aside a French autoroute which has been salted & gritted.

The high speed will keep the external temperature, very low, so any salt or other impurity is kept within the frozen snow, it then enters the Chunnel where temperatures are somewhere around 24-27°C, the snow will then rapidly melt & any salt & other nasty will then leech out into the system & needless to say affect the electrical circuits, especially if the cabling hasn't been checked.

its not the water that caused the problem, its the sudden temperature change

All of the above seem to be missing the point. It's not 'water on the wires'. Condensed-out water from high humidity air is pure water - it ceratinly won't contain salt. The problem is apparently the vast quantities of water condensed out of the hot and humid tunnel air onto and within the power cars.

If you fly to a hot humid country, you might see a similar effect. The aircraft will be very cold from many hours at 37,000 feet, and it lands at, say, Dubai. The temperature is 40C, and very humid. there are gallons of water condensed out of the atmosphere pouring off the airframe onto the apron.

But as to last night.... why did it take so long to rescue the passengers given the tunnel's carefully worked out safety case?
 

Electrostar

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Once a Eurostar train fails inside the tunnel does Euro Tunnel have jurisdiction to get it out or do they have to get permission from Eurostar? You'd imagine they'd send in rescue locomotives and then decide whether to allow passengers to disembark at the Eurotunnel car platforms (if this is possible?) or for one of Eurostar's dedicated rescue locos to haul the train to its terminus.
 
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it said on news at 22.35 that the broken down euro star couldn't be pulled by another euro star coz of the gradient. St. Pancras is NOT the place to be for travellers Sunday!
 

Electrostar

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I notice that some South Eastern High Speed services are running with a four to five minute delay. Could this be because they're diverted to run up the down line to slowly pass the broke down Eurostars? What rescue locos do Eurostar have? Do they still have the pair of 73s (Diesel operation only now there's no third rail I guess) and the 37s with the low wagons?
 

Lampshade

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And there was me thinking Class 373s are EMUs. Surely it could but not with the oomph it would have if both were working; after all a HST can pull another HST as per Grand Central last year.
 

Electrostar

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The BBC reports that the train which is stranded at Thurrock has no power, no lighting and the food has run out. You'd have thought Eurostar would have stocked up this train considering last night's trouble especially as they've told the media tonight's train were to transport "vulnerable" passengers. If they can't get the passengers of the Eurostar then I'd suggest speaking to South Eastern about pulling up a Javelin alongside and handing food, water and blankets!
 

the sniper

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Here is a photograph of them at St Pancras

http://www.rtranmer.fotopic.net/p62576835.html

What an interesting sight!

I bet those striking ASLEF Eurostar drivers can't believe their luck that they've avoided this mess! :shock:

Saying that, my dad has joked that this is a big cover up, the problem is actually being caused by the French cover drivers taking sympathy on their British counter parts and striking halfway through the tunnel. :lol:

Seriously though, this thing has been a surprisingly massive mess, how could the emergency plans be so rubbish? I'm also pretty surprised that they send 5 trains into the tunnel in this situation, I'm sure that will change for the next time...
 

Micky Redmire

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All condensation issues can be engineered out, I would be surprised if the original design didn't allow for this type of problem, is there periodic testing and inspection of protection? Maintenance issues? The management of the rescue operation appears to be grossly incompetent.

A brace of Deltics at either end of the tunnel, tell everybody to close windows and don't breathe too much ;)
 

fsmr

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All condensation issues can be engineered out, I would be surprised if the original design didn't allow for this type of problem, is there periodic testing and inspection of protection? Maintenance issues? The management of the rescue operation appears to be grossly incompetent.

A brace of Deltics at either end of the tunnel, tell everybody to close windows and don't breathe too much ;)


Wonder if they will hire in some class 60s or 58s LOL
just on ITN now main news
bad PR or what

I have never been a fan of electrics due to their vunerability in poor weather
Sure diesels have traction motors but at least they still have independent power for lighting and heating, even if they cannot move although i dont think it was the traction motors in this case, more likely on the 25kv HV side

The humidity would seem to be the main issue and is down to poor ventilation in the tunnel
However, the locos are obviously taking in too much cold air which is fine till the tempearture goes back up, it doesnt need to go up much either to cause issues with condensation. Will need some serious air management to resolve

Stick a laptop overnight in a car and bring it inside and you will get the same effect and possibly destroy the hard drive

I just hope that the london to Leics line isnt electrified as it will really mess up reliability
 

Nick W

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With the most shocking revelation that those in charge at Eurostar weren't aware that a Eurostar train could not be rescued by whichever "train" was sent, I can't help but feel that the railway companies are unprepared for the new HS1. It's brought the unique challenges of a different signalling system and roller-coaster gradients, and the difference in coupling between most locomotives and the passenger trains. Is there no off-the-shelf French or Japanese locomotive that could be purchased and used as thunderbirds for HS1 and the channel tunnel?

As for the channel tunnel incident, I must fully back Eurostar. It can't have been easy finding anyway to get the people out of the tunnel in bulk at the time it occurred. I know they can send buses down the service tunnel but for five trains, the passengers would almost certainly have been waiting for as long. Also, it can't be easy finding and transporting food for some 3,000 people. I would expect Eurostar to have the ability to rescue two broken down trains simultaneously, which it appears they did, but not to rescue five whole trains.

All condensation issues can be engineered out, I would be surprised if the original design didn't allow for this type of problem

How would suggest this btw? All I can think of is passing the cooling air through a dehumidifier before it enters the traction motors, but this solution isn't ideal where the traction motors are distributed.
 

Crossover

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It has to be said it is a bit of a mess - I have been following this story throughout the day as I was meant to be meeting a friend at St Pancras who hasn't been able to get back and possibly won't be able to for the forseeable future.

Surely if this has happened in the past then you'd expect a fix to have been put in place (especially as it was only last year) - do Tube trains suffer such problems when running sub-surface then deep tunnels?

It sounds overall though like a repeat of the problems Virgin had with the Voyagers on the Dawlish sea wall which shut down when they encountered water...

I did hear on the news that the one that got stuck later today was towed initially by another Eurostar but due to the combined weight it was too slow and couldn't get up the gradient (I have to say though that 2 Eurostars together would be quite a site - quite long!) so had to be shunted back to Ebbsfleet again.

I guess time will tell how long it is out of action for and whether the root problem will be discovered and rectified
 

crewmeal

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Why are they not running services on Sunday? With the freezing weather set to continue for the next few days I guess there will be no Eurostars operating for the foreseeable future

Stick a 57/3 on each end of these monstrosities or even a proper Duff to get some sort of service for the poor passengers who have no doubt paid hundreds for their fares.
 

captainbigun

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All condensation issues can be engineered out, I would be surprised if the original design didn't allow for this type of problem, is there periodic testing and inspection of protection? Maintenance issues? The management of the rescue operation appears to be grossly incompetent.

That's a bit of a sweeping statement, the situation is quite specific to the channel tunnel environment. Yes possibly, with a massive injection of cash and some significant changes. The Eurostar is crammed with kit because it's built to the UK loading gauge.

Any rescue loco has to have the right coupling, if diesel exhaust scrubbing and the tractive effort to move the set. Don't forget the tunnel is steep.

We don't have any suitable locos in the UK today, the contract for rescue is Eurotunnel's.
 

fsmr

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That's a bit of a sweeping statement, the situation is quite specific to the channel tunnel environment. Yes possibly, with a massive injection of cash and some significant changes. The Eurostar is crammed with kit because it's built to the UK loading gauge.

Any rescue loco has to have the right coupling, if diesel exhaust scrubbing and the tractive effort to move the set. Don't forget the tunnel is steep.

We don't have any suitable locos in the UK today, the contract for rescue is Eurotunnel's.

And BTW it was tongue in cheak earlier suggesting hiring in 60s and mothballed 58s
I am well aware of the coupling situation which quite frankly should have been forseen well in advance of this

This cant be very good for Eurostar finances, no trains for the foreseable future, cant see any recourse against the builders or designers.
According to Sky, they are sending "test" Ghost trains through with engineers to replicate the faults although, I guess it will be very hard to replicate short of having access to a very large climate controlled building unless they are very lucky and it fails first time in the tunnel
BTW what is happening to the RORO Eurotunnel service?
 

Micky Redmire

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How would suggest this btw? All I can think of is passing the cooling air through a dehumidifier before it enters the traction motors, but this solution isn't ideal where the traction motors are distributed.

What does the specification state? Are the tunnels operating within the design requirements (temp, humidity)? Are the trains operating within the design requirements?

In the unlikely event that the design requirements are lacking, spec to IP68 (or equivalent) with a closed circuit cooling system and value engineer down from there.

At the concept design stage, several disaster scenarios should be considered; one of these should be "What is the largest number of trains we can rescue from a tunnel? How quickly can this be achieved? Auxiliary power? Food? Water? Dealing with medical emergencies? Communications?

At the schematic design stage, several models should be constructed dealing with various disaster scenarios, one of which might include "How do we recover 5 trains from one tunnel in x hours." x being specified at the concept stage.

At commissioning, several disaster and recovery scenarios should be tested.

All the above is standard procedure for design and construction of any system that may present risk of injury or death.

Were the passengers really told not to breathe deeply to conserve oxygen? If this was an issue then CEO for E* should be sacked immediately with no compensation.

There are many people who would pay substantial sums to be on a E* that is rescued by a couple of Deltics .... the noise in the tunnels would be phenomenal.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
That's a bit of a sweeping statement, the situation is quite specific to the channel tunnel environment. Yes possibly, with a massive injection of cash and some significant changes. The Eurostar is crammed with kit because it's built to the UK loading gauge.

Any rescue loco has to have the right coupling, if diesel exhaust scrubbing and the tractive effort to move the set. Don't forget the tunnel is steep.

We don't have any suitable locos in the UK today, the contract for rescue is Eurotunnel's.

Operating electrical equipment in hostile environments is far from specific to the Chunnel, submarines for example. Inspection and testing should be occurring for health and safety issues at the very least, but also to verify maintenance procedures and to attempt to ensure that the things don't breakdown, this is all basic stuff!

At this stage, from the information available, I refuse to believe that the trains where running outside the design criteria for ambient temperature and humidity, it's not been particularly cold, and tunnel temps of 25'C (?) are not particularly high. I would assume that we will see the goal posts moving over the next few days, tunnel temps will be reported at 30'C plus (nothing a decent design can't handle) and maintenance issues will be highlighted.

Of course, it is possible that a group of idiots value engineered out design features required to deal with sudden changes in temp and humidity...

If it is a design and construction issue, then someone's PI cover might be about to take a pasting. But what were the client's requirements?
 
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As far as I know, the only non-Eurostar and non-Eurotunnel trains with experience of carrying passengers through the Channel Tunnel are 319008 and 319009 on 10 December 1993.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_319

So this is why FCC was unable to run a decent service yesterday and still can't today despite there having been no further significant snowfalls north of London. All their class 319 units have been commandeered by Eurostar to run an emergency Channel Tunnel service!

Hope the passengers enjoy the comfy seats and the super heating.
 

Chester025

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So this is why FCC was unable to run a decent service yesterday and still can't today despite there having been no further significant snowfalls north of London. All their class 319 units have been commandeered by Eurostar to run an emergency Channel Tunnel service!

Hope the passengers enjoy the comfy seats and the super heating.

Eh? The 319s through the tunnel happened 16 years ago...
 

captainbigun

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At this stage, from the information available, I refuse to believe that the trains where running outside the design criteria for ambient temperature and humidity, it's not been particularly cold, and tunnel temps of 25'C (?) are not particularly high. I would assume that we will see the goal posts moving over the next few days, tunnel temps will be reported at 30'C plus (nothing a decent design can't handle) and maintenance issues will be highlighted.

All good points, but what you're still failing to acknowledge near instantaneous change in atmospheric conditions. The conditions in tunnel are unlikely to be out of the spec, as are the conditions outside the tunnel. However how do you deal with an almost instant 30 deg C change in temperature and a say 60-70% change in humidity. It's all very well preaching engineering basics, but until you're presented with the conditions in real life you're not going to know for sure.

Insulators or any other component with a voltage stress across it @ several kV that go from cold and dry to very damp quickly is going to struggle!

If it could have been engineered out in a cost effectively manner then it would have been by now. Alstom do have a reasonable heritage with this kit!

As I posted above, this isn't the first time and won't be the last!!
 

jon0844

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So this is why FCC was unable to run a decent service yesterday and still can't today despite there having been no further significant snowfalls north of London. All their class 319 units have been commandeered by Eurostar to run an emergency Channel Tunnel service!

Hope the passengers enjoy the comfy seats and the super heating.

We seem to accept that we can't cope with bad weather, and considering the ferries and roads were screwed too - I suspect that people would have quite happily gone through on a 319 than sat around at St Pancras doing nothing.

Obviously this was not going to be an option, but I doubt every passenger was that precious about HOW they travelled as long as they travelled. Give everyone a voucher for another free return (valid for 12-24 months) and job done. Some will demand more compensation, but I doubt there's anything to say that you must be conveyed in a particular type of train.
 
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