Changing (ruining) the Southeastern Metro timetabled services

[Krystal]

As of now, the service usually runs as follows:
- 2tph Cannon St anticlockwise loop service via Bexleyheath, Woolwich and Greenwich
- 2tph Cannon St clockwise loop via Greenwich, Woolwich and Bexleyheath
- 2tph Victoria to Gravesend via Bexleyheath
- 2tph Cannon Street to Dartford via Lewisham and Woolwich
- 1tph Charing X to Dartford via Bexleyheath
- 4tph Charing X to Dartford via Sidcup (two that don’t call at LEW continue to GRV)
- 4tph Charing X to Hayes
- 2tph Cannon St to Orpington via Grove Park
- 2tph Charing X to Sevenoaks via Grove Park
- 4tph Victoria to Orpington via Beckenham Jn

Time to ruin it. Or make it better, depending on what you think.


- 2tph Cannon St clockwise looped service via Lewisham, Woolwich, and Sidcup
- 2tph Cannon St anticlockwise looped service via Sidcup, Woolwich and Lewisham
- 2tph Charing X to Crayford via Bexleyheath
- 2tph Charing X to Slade Green via Bexleyheath
- 4tph Victoria to Hayes
- 6tph Cannon St to Dartford (2 via Greenwich, 2 via Bexleyheath, 2 via Sidcup) (3tph, one from each branch will extend to Gravesend)
- 2tph Victoria to Sevenoaks via Grove Park
- 2tph Victoria to Sevenoaks via Beckenham Junction

Did I butcher the timetable or did I make it better? Lemme hear y’all thoughts.

 

[PGAT]

You definitely butchered it. Why do the Hayes and Grove Park lines not get anything into London Bridge?

 

[Krystal]

You definitely butchered it. Why do the Hayes and Grove Park lines not get anything into London Bridge?

2tph Charing X to Bromley North it is.
I’ll also move the Grove Park services to Charing X too (sorry New Cross)

 

[MotCO]

You've butchered Orpington - CXH / Cannon Street.

 

[Jaydubya]

Only 2tph via Herne Hill to Victoria? This is barely sufficient Saturday and Sunday daytime as it is!

 

[NCT]

What problem are you trying to solve? What’s the rationale behind your changes?

 

[Mgameing123]

As of now, the service usually runs as follows:
- 2tph Cannon St anticlockwise loop service via Bexleyheath, Woolwich and Greenwich
- 2tph Cannon St clockwise loop via Greenwich, Woolwich and Bexleyheath
- 2tph Victoria to Gravesend via Bexleyheath
- 2tph Cannon Street to Dartford via Lewisham and Woolwich
- 1tph Charing X to Dartford via Bexleyheath
- 4tph Charing X to Dartford via Sidcup (two that don’t call at LEW continue to GRV)
- 4tph Charing X to Hayes
- 2tph Cannon St to Orpington via Grove Park
- 2tph Charing X to Sevenoaks via Grove Park
- 4tph Victoria to Orpington via Beckenham Jn

Time to ruin it. Or make it better, depending on what you think.


- 2tph Cannon St clockwise looped service via Lewisham, Woolwich, and Sidcup
- 2tph Cannon St anticlockwise looped service via Sidcup, Woolwich and Lewisham
- 2tph Charing X to Crayford via Bexleyheath
- 2tph Charing X to Slade Green via Bexleyheath
- 4tph Victoria to Hayes
- 6tph Cannon St to Dartford (2 via Greenwich, 2 via Bexleyheath, 2 via Sidcup) (3tph, one from each branch will extend to Gravesend)
- 2tph Victoria to Sevenoaks via Grove Park
- 2tph Victoria to Sevenoaks via Beckenham Junction

Did I butcher the timetable or did I make it better? Lemme hear y’all thoughts.

How about we butcher it further and close Cannon Street during the off peak British Rail style!

 

[NorthKent1989]

The only improvements you could make is reverting to the 2009-2015 timetable, ie pre Thameslink.

Each of the three stopping Dartford routes had 6tph with the North Kent line being a semi fast Gillingham service.

But sadly this won’t happen

 

[britishrail375]

- 2tph Victoria to Sevenoaks via Grove Park
- 2tph Victoria to Sevenoaks via Beckenham Junction

1) 4tph to Sevenoaks likely wouldn't work. The two-track section between Orpington and Sevenoaks is already constrained and the fast peak trains would be very hard to path around four slow trains per hour on that stretch of track. Additionally, there may not be enough terminating space at Sevenoaks for these services, unless very short turnaround times are implemented which wouldn't be great for reliability.
2) While Sevenoaks gets too many terminating trains, the terminating platforms at Orpington appear to have no trains terminating there. Why?
3) Your suggestion also gets rid of the 4tph Orpington - Charing Cross/Cannon Street trains, meaning that everyone wishing to travel to London Bridge must take the 2tph fast trains from Hastings instead. From experience, these trains are frequently standing room only to and from Orpington (and sometimes from earlier stations if a 4 car turns up), and making more people use these trains is quite a bad idea.

2tph Charing X to Bromley North it is.

4) This will require crossing the fast lines at Grove Park, which will risk delaying fast trains (if they're not already late because of the slow Sevenoaks trains). The fast lines are already at capacity during peak times and I don't think that the Bromley North branch has enough demand for 2tph to London; people use Bromley South to get to London instead. If you wish to serve Grove Park, you might as well send that train to Orpington instead. You can do this by using the current off-peak 2tph Charing Cross - Sevenoaks and 2tph Cannon Street - Orpington pattern.

 

[30907]

I would basically
1) go back to pre-Covid frequencies (though I do wonder if the Sidcup route could justify 6tph)
2) increase Lewisham Victoria to 4tph (but not from Hayes - the second pair would be via Sidcup or Woolwich as convenient)
3) run the TL semi-fast East of Abbey Wood but have a Gravesend via Woolwich stopper. This assumes the TL path works though.

 

[Mattplans]

A lot of important routes lose services and important flows. Not the biggest fan. Working on the current timetable, what about a Victoria <> Sidcup (sidings) service during peak hours. Also, what about terminating the current sevenoaks service short at orpington. Then add calls on some of the fast trains running through this area instead?
My biggest concern is what happens to the trains that now terminate at Crayford and Slade Green from Bexleyheath. Do they form London bounds? Or just wait there and reverse back to Bexleyheath.

 

[britishrail375]

what about terminating the current sevenoaks service short at orpington. Then add calls on some of the fast trains running through this area instead?

There may not be enough terminating space at Orpington if the current service levels are kept on top of these cut back services. There are four Victoria services per hour with short turnaround times and two Cannon Street services per hour; while there may be some spare capacity in the off-peak, the peak Thameslinks wouldn't have anywhere to terminate in unless platforms 4 and 5 are used as terminating platforms. As for adding stops to existing services, extending journey times for Sevenoaks and beyond probably wouldn't be the most popular decision. As the Tunbridge Wells services no longer run outside of the peaks, only the Electrostar-operated services run, and these trains may not be that well suited for stopping at every station between Sevenoaks and Orpington.

 

[Mattplans]

There may not be enough terminating space at Orpington if the current service levels are kept on top of these cut back services.

You make a good point, although Plat 1 is unused for majority of the day.

As for adding stops to existing services, extending journey times for Sevenoaks and beyond probably wouldn't be the most popular decision.

Perhaps it's time this route gets some unpopular decisions. If remaining popular amongst its' users was of any concern to Southeastern, the cuts in the Dec 2022 timetable would have been restored. Or never cut in the first place. ...but somehow I sense the views of commuters from Sevenoaks hold more importance than the views elsewhere on the network...

As the Tunbridge Wells services no longer run outside of the peaks, only the Electrostar-operated services run, and these trains may not be that well suited for stopping at every station between Sevenoaks and Orpington.

Not sure that's entirely true. Many of the services on the Southern side are close together and the Electrostars performed metro-heavy work there. Southeastern thinks the Metro trains used by Southern aren't worthy to be used on Southeastern's metro, only longer distances. But that doesn't mean they aren't suited for stops between Orpington and Sevenoaks.

 

[britishrail375]

You make a good point, although Plat 1 is unused for majority of the day.

This is because to reach it, you have to cross the fast lines, which is risky during the peak times when there are many faster trains passing through Orpington non-stop. It is used for some peak extras, but platform 1 is situated in an inconvenient location and running trains to that platform regularly may pose too much of a performance risk.

 

[frankmoh]

Not sure that's entirely true. Many of the services on the Southern side are close together and the Electrostars performed metro-heavy work there. Southeastern thinks the Metro trains used by Southern aren't worthy to be used on Southeastern's metro, only longer distances. But that doesn't mean they aren't suited for stops between Orpington and Sevenoaks.

Southern's 377s are a compromise, they were built for outer suburban and long distance routes (replacing CIGS and VEPS) but have been forced into metro service after the 455s were retired.

The Electrostars aren't really known for their acceleration though. Compare the (METRO!) 376's 0.66 m/s2 to the 465's 0.98 m/s2.

 

[Transilien]

A possible solution for the Southeastern commuter services in the long term is to through run them with the Metropolitan line in a North West to South East crossrail line.

 

[frankmoh]

A possible solution for the Southeastern commuter services in the long term is to through run them with the Metropolitan line in a North West to South East crossrail line.

Dartford to Chesham (or perhaps Aylesbury)?

 

[JonathanH]

A possible solution for the Southeastern commuter services in the long term is to through run them with the Metropolitan line in a North West to South East crossrail line.

It is very unlikely that such a solution is going to happen in living lifetimes, sitting behind Bakerloo Line Extension, Crossrail 2 and other projects in the long term list, some of which won't happen in working lifetimes. Is there a known portal site, or space below central London for it?

Given the Bakerloo, Jubilee and Metropolitan Lines already provide North West to South East links, and the north side of the Circle Line has been relieved by the Elizabeth Line, I am not sure the North West to South East axis is the cross London link that needs relieving.

 

[LLivery]

I'm confused why you think the Chislehurst and Penge East lines should do down to 2tph - why would you reduce that? Penge East needs to go back to 4tph all week.

The Borough of Bromley already has a lot of trains to London Victoria and most commuters work in the City, putting Hayes & Chislehurst lines into London Victoria makes those lines next to useless when people often have Victoria options from Bromley South, Beckenham Jun, etc. Although I wouldn't oppose an extra London Vic to Orpington via Lewisham service - that could be useful.

 

[brad465]

I'd try and shorten the journey times back to what many of them were not only pre-covid, but even pre-2018. For example, a Gravesend-Charing X via Sidcup could do Crayford-CHX in 38 minutes each way on the current calling pattern, but now takes 41-42 minutes, and it's not like the infrastructure wasn't enhanced given all the London Bridge work. In the other direction at the moment it takes 24 minutes to do CRY-GRV, but 21 minutes in the up direction. I'm sure other examples exist on other lines too of a slowing down of services while retaining the same calling patterns.

Maybe the line speed improvement reference in NR's Lewisham resignalling work will assist with this, particularly as this is a notoriously slow area.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Southern's 377s are a compromise, they were built for outer suburban and long distance routes (replacing CIGS and VEPS) but have been forced into metro service after the 455s were retired.

I'm not sure how familiar you actually are with the 377's history, but they haven't been introduced onto any routes they weren't already working since the 455's demise.

The 455 worked London Victoria - Sutton/Epsom Downs, London Bridge - Coulsdon Town via New Cross Gate, and London Bridge - Caterham or Beckenham Junction via South Bermondsey. The 377s shared those duties with the 455s and then took over in full when the 455 was withdrawn.

The 377s also already worked the entirety of London Bridge Epsom, London Bridge Caterham/Tattenham Corner via Norwood Junction, London Victoria Dorking/Horsham, London Victoria London Bridge and London Victoria West Croydon services in the last few years of 455 operation.

 

[Mgameing123]

I'd try and shorten the journey times back to what many of them were not only pre-covid, but even pre-2018. For example, a Gravesend-Charing X via Sidcup could do Crayford-CHX in 38 minutes each way on the current calling pattern, but now takes 41-42 minutes, and it's not like the infrastructure wasn't enhanced given all the London Bridge work. In the other direction at the moment it takes 24 minutes to do CRY-GRV, but 21 minutes in the up direction. I'm sure other examples exist on other lines too of a slowing down of services while retaining the same calling patterns.

Maybe the line speed improvement reference in NR's Lewisham resignalling work will assist with this, particularly as this is a notoriously slow area.

How about we reintroduce the journey times before HS1 so people aren’t forced to pay a HS1 premium.

 

[brad465]

How about we reintroduce the journey times before HS1 so people aren’t forced to pay a HS1 premium.

Yes we could do that, but HS1 mostly impacted the mainline services; this thread is about metro services.

 

[MPW]

One service that would be particularly useful for me personally would be an orpington to clapham junction, and then towards richmond (just for me personally) but really wherever makes sense from there.

I have no idea how hard that would be to timetable because I have never seen it discussed. But I would think at least the lewisham end would be easier than the current Victoria to dartford service because coming from hither green wouldn't require crossover at lewisham junction. The challenge i suppose would be near stewarts Lane and following the overground route towards Clapham Junction from clapham High Street.

Would this require new infrastructure?

Even just 2tph would be fine. Its for orbital connections to compete with just driving all the way around the m25 to get to outer SW london

 

[NCT]

Just change at Peckham Rye?

 

[JonathanH]

One service that would be particularly useful for me personally would be an orpington to clapham junction, and then towards richmond (just for me personally) but really wherever makes sense from there.

It is reasonable to consider whether actual direct traibs would stimulate demand but I think passengers from stations between Orpington and Lewisham heading to Richmond and beyond are just expected to go via Waterloo East. It is never going to be quicker to thread a train through South London than using the Waterloo East - Waterloo foot connection.

In terms of connections from Bromley, to the Windsor Lines currently they would be expected to change at Denmark Hill and Clapham Junction.

Would this require new infrastructure?

No, but the connection at Clapham Junction requires crossing over a number of lines at slow speed. There are also level crossing issues through Barnes, Mortlake and North Sheen, and the general issue of whether capacity should be added to London, or for orbital journeys. The lines between Wandsworth Road and Clapham Junction are very slow.

 

[PTR 444]

Could the following work for a simplified Southeastern metro service pattern?

• 4tph Cannon Street to Slade Green via Greenwich, 2tph of which continue to Dartford and 2tph back to London Charing Cross via Sidcup
• 2tph Thameslink Luton to Rainham, running via Lewisham and Blackheath Tunnel instead of Greenwich
• 4tph Victoria to Dartford via Bexleyheath, 2tph of which continue to Gravesend
• 4tph Charing Cross to Sidcup, 2tph of which continue to Gravesend and 2tph of which continue back to London Cannon Street via Greenwich
• 4tph Cannon Street to Orpington via Lewisham
• 4tph Bromley North Branch to connect with the above, using 2 units
• 4tph Charing Cross to Hayes
• 4tph Victoria to Orpington via Penge East

 

[Mattplans]

I’m assuming fast services pick up. the calls at Chels, Knockholt and Sevenoaks?

No direct services from Eltham to London Bridge is ridiculous and could never happen. 4 tph crossing from St Johns to Lewisham Down Mid Kent platform and Up Bexleyheath to Nunhead is also a lot of conflicts.

 

[SE%Traveller]

I I've included Catford In my workings, hard to consider SE metro without them:
• 4tph Cannon Street - Slade Green via Greenwich & Woolwich, 2 to Dartford, 2 CST via Bexleyheath.
• 2tph Victoria - Gillingham via Nunhead & Woolwich, Semi-Fast
• 4tph Cannon Street - Barnehurst via New Cross & Bexleyheath, 2 CST via Greenwich, 2 CHX via Sidcup.
• 2tph Victoria - Gravesend Via Nunhead & Bexleyheath, Semi-Fast
• 4tph Charing Cross - Crayford via Lewisham & Sidcup, 2 to Gravesend, 2 to CST via Bexleyheath.
• 4tph Cannon Street - Orpington via New Cross & Lewisham, 2 continuing to Sevenoaks
• 4tph Charing Cross – Hayes via Catford Bridge, Fast to Ladywell
• 4tph Victoria - Orpington via Herne Hill
• 4tph Thameslink - Bromley South via Catford, 2 to Orpington, 2 to Sevenoaks via Bat & Ball, Stopping
• 2tph Thameslink – Rainham via Catford & Bromley South, Fast to Bromley South, then Stopping.

Aim was to give all routes 1 15tph Regular Service pattern

 

[NorthKent1989]

Could the following work for a simplified Southeastern metro service pattern?

• 4tph Cannon Street to Slade Green via Greenwich, 2tph of which continue to Dartford and 2tph back to London Charing Cross via Sidcup
• 2tph Thameslink Luton to Rainham, running via Lewisham and Blackheath Tunnel instead of Greenwich
• 4tph Victoria to Dartford via Bexleyheath, 2tph of which continue to Gravesend
• 4tph Charing Cross to Sidcup, 2tph of which continue to Gravesend and 2tph of which continue back to London Cannon Street via Greenwich
• 4tph Cannon Street to Orpington via Lewisham
• 4tph Bromley North Branch to connect with the above, using 2 units
• 4tph Charing Cross to Hayes
• 4tph Victoria to Orpington via Penge East

I I've included Catford In my workings, hard to consider SE metro without them:
• 4tph Cannon Street - Slade Green via Greenwich & Woolwich, 2 to Dartford, 2 CST via Bexleyheath.
• 2tph Victoria - Gillingham via Nunhead & Woolwich, Semi-Fast
• 4tph Cannon Street - Barnehurst via New Cross & Bexleyheath, 2 CST via Greenwich, 2 CHX via Sidcup.
• 2tph Victoria - Gravesend Via Nunhead & Bexleyheath, Semi-Fast
• 4tph Charing Cross - Crayford via Lewisham & Sidcup, 2 to Gravesend, 2 to CST via Bexleyheath.
• 4tph Cannon Street - Orpington via New Cross & Lewisham, 2 continuing to Sevenoaks
• 4tph Charing Cross – Hayes via Catford Bridge, Fast to Ladywell
• 4tph Victoria - Orpington via Herne Hill
• 4tph Thameslink - Bromley South via Catford, 2 to Orpington, 2 to Sevenoaks via Bat & Ball, Stopping
• 2tph Thameslink – Rainham via Catford & Bromley South, Fast to Bromley South, then Stopping.

Aim was to give all routes 1 15tph Regular Service pattern

Both sound reasonable.

Here’s my twopence

Greenwich Line:
Cannon Street to Slade Green 6tph, 2tph to Gravesend, 2tph to Cannon Street via Bexleyheath, 2tph to Charing Cross via Sidcup

Woolwich Line:
Ideally no Thameslink incursion, but if it had to run, it should run fast from London Bridge to Lewisham, then Blackheath, Charlton and same stops as the old ChX-Gillingham semi fast, however if not Thameslink, then this should be a London Victoria to Gillingham service, fast from London Victoria to Lewisham (if possible a stop at Denmark Hill would be ideal) then semi fast after Lewisham

Bexleyheath Line:
4tph Cannon Street to Barnehurst, 2tph continue to Cannon Street via Greenwich, 2tph continue to Dartford, London Victoria to Gravesend at 2tph

Sidcup Line:
4tph Charing Cross to Crayford, 2tph continue to Cannon Street via Greenwich, 2tph continue to Gillingham

Chislehurst Line:
4tph Cannon Street to Orpington, calling at New Cross & St.John’s not calling at Lewisham
2tph Charing Cross to Sevenoaks, fast from London Bridge to Lewisham,
4tph for the Bromley North Shuttle

Hayes Line:
4tph Charing Cross to Hayes, 2tph skip Lewisham

Catford Loop Line:
2tph Kentish Town to Orpington
2tph Welwyn Garden City to Sevenoaks

Penge East Line:
4tph London Victoria to Bromley South, 2tph continue to Orpington
Herne Hill, Beckenham Jnc and Bromley South to be served with an extra 2tph Luton to Rainham Thameslink to replace the old Woolwich one.