Changes to weekend travel restrictions on SWT

[Ritchie Sparky]

Hi all, first post on here!

Couldn't find any mention of this already on the forum. Basically SWT are introducing time restrictions on super-off peak travel at weekends.

http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/tickets-explained/tickets/super-off-peak/

To me the changes quite frankly seem bizarre and confusing; especially at a time of the week where the majority of users are leisure travelers.

How's it fair that super-off peak tickets are supposedly available for travel to London before 09:30 but not available anywhere else or indeed for leaving London on any train before 11:00?

Why the lack of advertising from SWT; it's less than a month until January?

Are these changes aimed at making weekend travel better or just a mechanism to boost revenue?

Thoughts?

 

[JonathanH]

They appear to be aimed at moving people away from the peak travel times at the weekend to times when the trains are less busy to spread demand. Seems to make sense to me.

South West Trains obviously feel that demand is outstripping capacity at certain times on a Saturday morning.

 

[Ritchie Sparky]

They appear to be aimed at moving people away from the peak travel times at the weekend to times when the trains are less busy to spread demand. Seems to make sense to me.

South West Trains obviously feel that demand is outstripping capacity at certain times on a Saturday morning.

Whilst I understand this view and accept this as the probable reason behind these changes; it will come as a 'kick in the teeth' to anyone who works at weekends and to whom it will be a significant additional expense.

My view from commuting and travelling at weekends is that loadings tend to be much more spread throughout the day (particularly on longer distance services); but can fluctuate as a result of sporting events, concerts etc.

I can foresee significant crowding on shoulder super off-peak trains as well.

 

[plcd1]

They appear to be aimed at moving people away from the peak travel times at the weekend to times when the trains are less busy to spread demand. Seems to make sense to me.

South West Trains obviously feel that demand is outstripping capacity at certain times on a Saturday morning.

The cynic in me says this is more of an attempt to screw more money out of people in the final knockings of the current franchise. It also sets an interesting precedent for the next one. It either allows ongoing "pricing up" to create more revenue next time or creates "head room" for some nice headline grabbing "fare cuts" for the next franchisee. Of course they wouldn't really be cuts as it's the classic thing of whack your prices up before you have a "fantastic sale" to tempt the mugs (us poor public) to part with their cash.

My unbounded cynicism also thinks it's a bit pathetic that SWT can't run some more / longer trains on a Saturday to cope with the demand. It's not exactly running at M-F peak frequencies or train lengths is it? And yes I know it may cost more and there are capped kilometrage pricing bands in train service contracts that create step changes in costs but if you can't physically cope with the demand but have the stock then the answer is obvious - you swallow the cost to earn the dosh especially if there is an identifiable growth trend going on as there has been on SWT for years.

 

[Ritchie Sparky]

Does anyone know of any other examples where a TOC has similar weekend restrictions, or is this something of a first?

 

[JonathanH]

Presumably if overcrowding occurs on the shoulder peak services the restrictions will be extended.

One other point is that it is a bit of a blunt instrument, particularly with regard to sporting events or things which happen in the evening which might cause their own peak.

The odd thing about this, however, is that the restrictions don't apply on the long distance routes. It has always seemed to me that it is those where SWT actually has the worst overcrowding issues at the weekend.

 

[Ritchie Sparky]

Presumably if overcrowding occurs on the shoulder peak services the restrictions will be extended.

One other point is that it is a bit of a blunt instrument, particularly with regard to sporting events or things which happen in the evening which might cause their own peak.

The odd thing about this, however, is that the restrictions don't apply on the long distance routes. It has always seemed to me that it is those where SWT actually has the worst overcrowding issues at the weekend.

The point about events was more of a generalised statement, certainly not suggesting that they could or should cause there own peak.

From my understanding of the conditions the restrictions do apply to long distance routes, the exceptions being to and from any stations between Brockenhurst and Weymouth and between Salisbury and Bath/Bristol/Exeter

 

[bb21]

There are very definitely "peak" travel times at weekends, and will likely be the case as passenger numbers continue to grow. It is unfortunate that you are caught in the middle of it, but that is just one of the ways demand is managed.

Unfortunately despite all the unfounded cynicism being bandied about by some, there is no spare unit to run longer trains. When the 707s come into service, the situation should ease a little. The reality is that there are heavy maintenance schedules at weekends, and Saturdays have almost as many services as weekdays, so you end up with shorter trains. Sundays are better than Saturdays as less services are run. The way things are at the moment, weekday peak commuters will always come before weekend leisure travellers, and the much smaller commuting crowd.

All the above from a reliable source.

 

[Starmill]

Does anyone know of any other examples where a TOC has similar weekend restrictions, or is this something of a first?

Nope, London Midland have been applying restrictions on Saturdays for at least two years. This prompted Virgin Trains to introduce a few of their own Super Off-Peak fares which have different restrictions M-F, S and Su. Typically only 3 hour window in the middle of the day, and late into the evening.

Let's hope SWT have finally managed to come up with something that can actually be understood by passengers and staff, doesn't break the website (or reportedly TVMs), and contributes positively to smooth demand.

 

[cav1975]

It is interesting to see that the website linked to above refers to "trains arriving" and "trains departing" implying that actual arrival and departure times are to be used and not scheduled times. Lots of opportunities for excess fare revenue from late running morning trains into Waterloo, Surbiton, etc.

 

[greaterwest]

I'm certainly glad this is happening, certain trains often between 9am and 12 noon are certainly chronically overcrowded in the London direction on Saturdays mornings.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

My unbounded cynicism also thinks it's a bit pathetic that SWT can't run some more / longer trains on a Saturday to cope with the demand. It's not exactly running at M-F peak frequencies or train lengths is it? And yes I know it may cost more and there are capped kilometrage pricing bands in train service contracts that create step changes in costs but if you can't physically cope with the demand but have the stock then the answer is obvious - you swallow the cost to earn the dosh especially if there is an identifiable growth trend going on as there has been on SWT for years.

Yes, what SWT should do then, is run every train at its maximum length and use all stock they have to hand - that way come Monday morning the commuters will have filthy, faulty trains that haven't been maintained over the weekend (also shortforms!) As long as you get your seat to London on a Saturday, it's fine I'm sure.

Come the following weekend you'd be complaining that the trains are filthy and faulty because just one day a week isn't enough to maintain every train in SWT's fleet.

 

[infobleep]

May be what is required is more trains, so that maintenance doesn't just happen at weekends but that might not be financially viable.

Of course if your a season ticket holder, you can travel any time of the week regardless of passenger numbers on a Saturday. So anyone who needs to commute on a Saturday, in addition to other days will be OK. It's just those where they are commuting less than the number of days needs to make a season ticket viable.

Whenever I've travelled at mid morning at the weekend I've always got a seat. Are their trains where one doesn't get a seat on a Saturday?

Do these restrictions apply to people using Oyster?

Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk

 

[swt_passenger]

Hi all, first post on here!

Couldn't find any mention of this already on the forum. Basically SWT are introducing time restrictions on super-off peak travel at weekends.

Welcome to the forums.

There were actually a couple of previous threads about this in the fares section, on the basis that they'd start in September; but they petered out once the changes appeared to be some time in the future, or at least not yet confirmed:

August: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=134050

September: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=136171

 

[185143]

May be what is required is more trains, so that maintenance doesn't just happen at weekends but that might not be financially viable.

Of course if your a season ticket holder, you can travel any time of the week regardless of passenger numbers on a Saturday. So anyone who needs to commute on a Saturday, in addition to other days will be OK. It's just those where they are commuting less than the number of days needs to make a season ticket viable.

Whenever I've travelled at mid morning at the weekend I've always got a seat. Are their trains where one doesn't get a seat on a Saturday?

Do these restrictions apply to people using Oyster?

Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk

AFAIK, there aren't any super off peak Oyster fares so I assume not?

 

[swt_passenger]

Do these restrictions apply to people using Oyster?

It would be impossible to add to Oyster I think, as it relies on only two bands, peak and off peak.
The existing SWT super off-peak fares are not available for journeys wholly within the zones, AFAICT references to travelcards in the SWT documentation is about outboundary travelcards. Additionally, the paper fare restrictions do not apply to travel within the zones using the travelcard capability anyway.

 

[TEW]

Overcrowding is definitely an issue on Saturday, and Sunday mornings in to Waterloo. A lot has been done to lengthen Weekend trains over the past few years, but demand still outstrips demand at times. On Sunday mornings the majority of trains in to Waterloo are running at maximum length. How much these restrictions will help, I'm not sure, we'll have to wait and see.

 

[infobleep]

It would be impossible to add to Oyster I think, as it relies on only two bands, peak and off peak.
The existing SWT super off-peak fares are not available for journeys wholly within the zones, AFAICT references to travelcards in the SWT documentation is about outboundary travelcards. Additionally, the paper fare restrictions do not apply to travel within the zones using the travelcard capability anyway.

Thanks.

What is the overcrowding like within the Oyster zone areas? Is it more of a problem from outside the Oyster zones or is the problem just the same?

Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk

 

[swt_passenger]

Thanks.

What is the overcrowding like within the Oyster zone areas? Is it more of a problem from outside the Oyster zones or is the problem just the same?

As far as I know SWT don't offer Super Offpeaks at all within the zones, and I'm fairly sure originally they only applied for journeys towards London and return. The restrictions effectively only applied to Waterloo, Vauxhall and Clapham Junction, but in the afternoon peak you couldn't join a 'mainline side' fast service anywhere else as they were all non-stop at least to Woking. Different stopping patterns would come into play on the Windsor side of course..

So logically the whole point of the super off-peak fares was to address peak crowding on longer distance services, not inner suburban ones where the fares wouldn't be offered anyway.

 

[Kite159]

For me, might be a case of splitting at Basingstoke if my plans involve hitting the restriction, or departing from Paddington to Reading and down to Basingstoke via GWR (from what it reads it won't work towards London due to the "no station within zones 1-6 rule")

I can see the 18:45 Salisbury express being busy on Sundays (when it runs)

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Yes, what SWT should do then, is run every train at its maximum length and use all stock they have to hand - that way come Monday morning the commuters will have filthy, faulty trains that haven't been maintained over the weekend (also shortforms!) As long as you get your seat to London on a Saturday, it's fine I'm sure.

I'm slightly playing devil's advocate here (=old word for "trolling"), but... what's the harm in that?

From my local (GWR) station, a Super Off-Peak return to London Terminals is £33.10. An annual season works out at £26.40 per return journey (according to NRE). Yes, there's a cost to ticket retail and so on, but Super Off-Peak tickets are not some bargain below-cost scam that the railway provides through gritted teeth.

Season ticket holders already get an astonishingly good deal. Let's stop pretending that they should be entitled to better treatment than people buying expensive walk-up-and-go tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does anyone know of any other examples where a TOC has similar weekend restrictions, or is this something of a first?

LM has restricted Super Off Peaks on Saturdays for some time, though for simplicity the restrictions are very similar to, or the same as, weekday ones.

 

[TEW]

SWTs may be complicated, but it is very hard to justify banning Super Off Peak tickets on trains at 0600 on a Saturday morning if you are justifying the restrictions on trying to prevent overcrowding. SWT have tried to target the restrictions at the busiest times, and early Saturday and Sunday morning is not the busiest time.

 

[bb21]

Season ticket holders already get an astonishingly good deal. Let's stop pretending that they should be entitled to better treatment than people buying expensive walk-up-and-go tickets.

Very few leisure travellers spend thousands of pounds a year on travel.

Hence in the commuting belt, weekday commuters will always have priority, and rightly imo.

 

[Helvellyn]

I'm slightly playing devil's advocate here (=old word for "trolling"), but... what's the harm in that?

From my local (GWR) station, a Super Off-Peak return to London Terminals is £33.10. An annual season works out at £26.40 per return journey (according to NRE). Yes, there's a cost to ticket retail and so on, but Super Off-Peak tickets are not some bargain below-cost scam that the railway provides through gritted teeth.

Season ticket holders already get an astonishingly good deal. Let's stop pretending that they should be entitled to better treatment than people buying expensive walk-up-and-go tickets.

The price protection built in for Season Ticket holders is one political hot potato that - so far - Government does not want to tackle. At some point the whole fares system will have to be overhauled, but until their is the political appetite and will to do this it won't happen.

Plus I know you were playing devil's advocate, but neither Government or a TOC is going to agree to anything boosting weekend capacity that threatens the ability of the railways to move people in the peaks during the week.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Agreed on both counts: it's politically dangerous and it will have to be overhauled at some point.

One further example: Government and TOCs have together been extraordinarily reluctant to introduce part-time season tickets, aside from a few in the South-West. It is very possible (and I'm still playing devil's advocate here) that this could be construed as sexual discrimination. Over 70% of part-time workers are women: in employment law, discriminating against part-time workers is often taken to be implicit sexual discrimination.

At some point, I expect a campaign group to latch onto the fact that female workers are therefore, in aggregate, being offered less favourable ticket prices than male ones. Legally there are no doubt magic railway laws that exempt the TOCs from any blame. Morally? Could be an interesting one.

 

[[.n]]

One further example: Government and TOCs have together been extraordinarily reluctant to introduce part-time season tickets, aside from a few in the South-West.

I'm given to understand that this is supposed to be a requirement of the new SWT franchise when its awarded, but I suppose time will tell!

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm given to understand that this is supposed to be a requirement of the new SWT franchise when its awarded, but I suppose time will tell!

Original reply deleted. Missed the diversion onto part time seasons.

The problem with part time seasons in my area (e.g. south Hants to Waterloo) is that weekly seasons are already priced equivalent to only two Anytime returns, so the headroom available for reductions in weekly season price for part time use is quite small. The hypothetical commuter who only travels three times a week is getting a significant discount already.

 

[Via Bank]

 

[Deerfold]

How can something that starts 2nd Jan be anything to do with the new franchise then? I think it is just continuation of existing policy to try and use pricing off to alter travel times that led to Super Off-peak in the first place.

[.n] is clearly talking about the introduction of part-time season tickets. These are not being introduced on 2nd Jan.

 

[swt_passenger]

[.n] is clearly talking about the introduction of part-time season tickets. These are not being introduced on 2nd Jan.

Ok thanks.