Changes to the Borderlands Line

[HST43257]

So I have seen a couple of plans for more Business Parks and houses on the English part of the borderlands line (Wrexham to Bidston). Could the Shotton to Bidston part have a Merseyrail service going into Liverpool on the circular route? Journey time of about 45 mins from Shotton to Liverpool so for a 15 minute service frequency, 7 diagrams would be required. Car travel from somewhere like Heswall into Liverpool will be quite common, but a high frequency 0 change train is likely to be preferred. Similarly, car travel into Wales will also be popular from the Wirral, though Shotton could become an important interchange with higher frequencies. On the other part of the route, it looks as if it’s impossible to have an hourly (or half hourly) quick turnaround service, unless it was terminated at Wrexham General and a (maybe) Parry People Mover on batteries went from General to Central. That one’s fairly similar to Stourbridge in distance and time so could be ok.

The Wrexham General to Shotton route takes 27 minutes currently, meaning 2x Class 230s would be needed to operate a 2tph service. This can go from Wrexham General platform 3, which is currently rarely used. I considered extending them to Shrewsbury, calling at the likes of Gobowen, Chirk and Ruabon but the timings and diagrams don’t work plus it wouldnt exactly help reliability. If anyone wanted to rationalise the line between Wrexham and Shotton, it could be single line except from a dynamic loop between Hope and Penyffordd.

For the General to Wrexham bit, it may just be worth closing given the fact that General is on the edge of the centre, but I doubt that’d be appreciated on the whole. Instead, Parry People mover. 2 min journey time, 3 min turnaround, 10 min frequency. Even shorter than Stourbridge, coming in at just 49 chains.

 

[The Planner]

So to be clear, you are proposing a Parry People Mover and all the capital costs that entails to save a unit on the Bidston line? You sure about the Shotton to Wrexham General time too, it more than 27 minutes. How are you turning around at Shotton?

 

[HST43257]

So to be clear, you are proposing a Parry People Mover and all the capital costs that entails to save a unit on the Bidston line?

This is why I also suggested closure, seems like it’s a little worthless, and locals may or may not disagree.

You sure about the Shotton to Wrexham General time too, it more than 27 minutes.

2F54 departs Wrexham at 08:34 and arrives into Shotton at 09:01.

How are you turning around at Shotton?

Add 2 Xovers at Shotton (1 at each side) for Merseyrail and TfW terminating on their separate platforms. If the Wrexham part of the line was rationalised, it’d be a simple single track situation. Works either way, I’d hope.

 

[Aictos]

The main changes that should have happened by now is electrification of the Borderlands Line between Bidston and Wrexham Central on the 3rd rail electrification system and have the service handed over to Merseyrail.

That I would say would be of far more benefit to the line then what the OP is proposing.

 

[The Planner]

2F54 arrives at 0902? Look at the WTT times, not the public ones, they are the ones that matter. The rest of it is costing north of 8 figures for all of this considering all the third rail, signaling and S&C required? How do you cope with the freight on the rationalised side?

 

[cle]

I would have thought closing Wrexham Central would make sense. General can be the only one (Central as a name is confusing too) - and General may well increase in usage with the extra Halton/Cardiff services pegged to come.

Shotton may see those Halton services too incidentally.

Is there a shortage of 230s? I would think there were plenty of units to create a higher frequency service feeding these various services.

And at Shotton, 4tph coming from each route would ensure various connections west and east on to Chester, Liverpool, Manchester and Crewe/sometimes London. Bidston would still have the quicker, more frequent Liverpool journeys also.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Wrexham General to Shotton route takes 27 minutes currently, meaning 2x Class 230s would be needed to operate a 2tph service.

Not a reliable one. No slack in that whatsoever.

 

[HST43257]

2F54 arrives at 0902? Look at the WTT times, not the public ones, they are the ones that matter.

Ok 28 minutes then - still should be ok, especially given

considering all the third rail

Don‘t 777s have battery capabilities?

How do you cope with the freight on the rationalised side?

Good point. Scrap the rationalisation then for the freight. The only changed route should be the crossovers in that case.


There is another idea...

Could, instead o splitting the route at Shotton, there be 2tph of the Merseyrail running through to Wrexham (General or Central, depends on time available)? Just 1 crossover needed for 2tph turnback at Shotton. Might need some third rail as far as Neston. I’m pretty sure I’ve heard about batteries that can go 40 miles - its 38 miles Neston - Wrexham Central - Neston. Might be better to electrify as far as Shotton or the proposed Deeside Industrial Park station.

 

[30907]

If you are going to run through to Liverpool, you really need full length trains, which would be gross overprovision at the Wrexham end. Do you adopt portion working, with long enough turnrounds to manage the performance risk, or do you split the service? If so, where? Initially at least this would be over complicated.

My interim solution would be to move the terminus from Bidston to Birkenhead N with its extra platform. I would have 2tph throughout and 4tph in the peak as far as Heswall (Merseyside boundary - needs a turnback crossover), and see how traffic develops before thinking about through running to Liverpool.

(In practice, by the time this happened the 230s would be life-expired and we would have a BEMU variant of the 777s - but my suggestion would work with 6x230 diagrammed).

PS Batteries are not yet fitted to 777s but a trial is to to be undertaken AIUI.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you are going to run through to Liverpool, you really need full length trains, which would be gross overprovision at the Wrexham end.

What is capacity like on the line into Liverpool (not the full Loop)? The James St "disused" platform would seem an ideal place to run it to. Yes, I'd be opposed to running 2-car trains into Liverpool if it would be a performance issue, but would it? The Loop itself I believe was originally signalled for 30tph (is it still?) and there's nothing like that running on it.

I doubt people would crowd it out because James St is a fairly quiet station.

Would a DMU be allowed to run to there on electric, i.e. would the diesel tanks make it a no-no? Shoes could I guess be refitted to the 230? The Network Rail MPVs are diesel with exhaust scrubbers and do run through the tunnels, though not with passengers on board.

 

[HST43257]

The James St "disused" platform would seem an ideal place to run it to.

I’d run it and everything else round the loop. 24tph eventually, or at least in the peaks, with an extra 2tph from Ellesmere Port and 4tph only from Rock Ferry, so there’d be a train every 5 mins towards Birkenhead North and a train every 5 mins towards Rock Ferry. In the off peak maybe revert to current timetable, with an extra 2tph to Wrexham via Shotton.

How about this for a full service pattern? All Merseyrail services

Peak
4tph Chester to Liverpool loop
4tph Ellesmere Port to Liverpool loop
4tph Rock Ferry to Liverpool loop
2tph Wrexham Central to Liverpool loop
2tph Shotton to Liverpool loop
4tph West Kirby to Liverpool loop
4tph New Brighton to Liverpool loop

Off Peak
4tph Chester to Liverpool loop
2tph Ellesmere Port to Liverpool loop
2tph Wrexham Central to Liverpool loop
4tph West Kirby to Liverpool loop
4tph New Brighton to Liverpool loop

 

[Gareth]

"No" to non-standard units going into the underground system; quadroupally so if they're diesel. This diesel service running to the disused platform at James St thing often strikes me as people wanting to see the old platform used more often. Of course, the track is often used for stock interchange with the Northern line and as turnback for Wirral trains when the loop is closed for whatever reason. An hourly service terminating here would add enough complications, let alone 2tph or more.

The Borderlands service should be re-extended to Birkenhead North with passengers having 8tph to change onto to cross the river. Ideally and extra track and bay platform should be put in at North to minimise interaction with the busy, largely segregated, urban EMU operations that Merseyrail runs.

And that sort of operation can hardly describe the Borderlands Line, even if it were electrified. The existing Merseyrail network features commuter/metro style units with no toilets, first class or shop/buffet. Most stations are spaced no more than 1-2km apart from the very outer edges where it runs through greenbelt. The furthest out places are Southport and Chester, which both take about three quarters of an hour or so to get to. This is about the natural limit for a metro system. I've done both journeys many a time and it was okay but I wouldn't want to have been on the train much longer.

Wrexham is not far off the same distance again. As is Crewe, which is another one that occasionally gets suggested. The stations are far more spaced out and the service would be a big outlier in terms of journey time.

You could, perhaps, annex the northern part to Merseyrail, be it Heswall, Neston or even Shotton. That could work but it would reduce the southern part to a rump and the interchange for services to Liverpool would be less convenient (1 or 2tph at Heswall, Neston or Shotton instead of 4tph at Bidston or 8tph at Birkenhead North). It's also hampered slightly by the somewhat circular route it does around Birkenhead.

 

[jamesst]

I’d run it and everything else round the loop. 24tph eventually, or at least in the peaks, with an extra 2tph from Ellesmere Port and 4tph only from Rock Ferry, so there’d be a train every 5 mins towards Birkenhead North and a train every 5 mins towards Rock Ferry. In the off peak maybe revert to current timetable, with an extra 2tph to Wrexham via Shotton.

How about this for a full service pattern? All Merseyrail services

Peak
4tph Chester to Liverpool loop
4tph Ellesmere Port to Liverpool loop
4tph Rock Ferry to Liverpool loop
2tph Wrexham Central to Liverpool loop
2tph Shotton to Liverpool loop
4tph West Kirby to Liverpool loop
4tph New Brighton to Liverpool loop

Off Peak
4tph Chester to Liverpool loop
2tph Ellesmere Port to Liverpool loop
2tph Wrexham Central to Liverpool loop
4tph West Kirby to Liverpool loop
4tph New Brighton to Liverpool loop

Not a hope in hell of getting that many trains an hour round the loop in peak im afraid without causing some significant delays.

It may of well been built to handle 30 trains or whatnot an hour but modern day signalling constraints mean that without a complete redesign of the loop signalling system it cant handle anywhere near that number. 20 tph is probably about your limit and even that is pushing it.

 

[HST43257]

Not a hope in hell of getting that many trains an hour round the loop in peak im afraid without causing some significant delays.

It may of well been built to handle 30 trains or whatnot an hour but modern day signalling constraints mean that without a complete redesign of the loop signalling system it cant handle anywhere near that number. 20 tph is probably about your limit and even that is pushing it.

Is there a large reliability issue? It’s a nearly or fully segregated system on the Wirrall Line so I don’t see why not if the signalling allows it.

 

[Llandudno]

Extension of Merseyrail on the

"No" to non-standard units going into the underground system; quadroupally so if they're diesel. This diesel service running to the disused platform at James St thing often strikes me as people wanting to see the old platform used more often. Of course, the track is often used for stock interchange with the Northern line and as turnback for Wirral trains when the loop is closed for whatever reason. An hourly service terminating here would add enough complications, let alone 2tph or more.

The Borderlands service should be re-extended to Birkenhead North with passengers having 8tph to change onto to cross the river. Ideally and extra track and bay platform should be put in at North to minimise interaction with the busy, largely segregated, urban EMU operations that Merseyrail runs.

And that sort of operation can hardly describe the Borderlands Line, even if it were electrified. The existing Merseyrail network features commuter/metro style units with no toilets, first class or shop/buffet. Most stations are spaced no more than 1-2km apart from the very outer edges where it runs through greenbelt. The furthest out places are Southport and Chester, which both take about three quarters of an hour or so to get to. This is about the natural limit for a metro system. I've done both journeys many a time and it was okay but I wouldn't want to have been on the train much longer.

Wrexham is not far off the same distance again. As is Crewe, which is another one that occasionally gets suggested. The stations are far more spaced out and the service would be a big outlier in terms of journey time.

You could, perhaps, annex the northern part to Merseyrail, be it Heswall, Neston or even Shotton. That could work but it would reduce the southern part to a rump and the interchange for services to Liverpool would be less convenient (1 or 2tph at Heswall, Neston or Shotton instead of 4tph at Bidston or 8tph at Birkenhead North). It's also hampered slightly by the somewhat circular route it does around Birkenhead.

I think the best option would be to electrify the Borderlands line to Neston or Shotton (Heswall station is quite remote) then TfW retain the Wrexham leg.
Merseyrail to run Shotton/Neston to Liverpool with a new station at Woodchurch. If this happens I suspect that this may only run every 30 minutes and the New Brighton branch then may be cut to every 30 minutes, thereby not increasing the number of Wirral Line trains on the Liverpool Loop.

 

[jamesst]

Is there a large reliability issue? It’s a nearly or fully segregated system on the Wirrall Line so I don’t see why not if the signalling allows it.

Operations wise the Chester line has always been a big drain on Wirral Line punctuality with its short turn around/no recovery time schedule.
The problem under the normal timetable is its very easy for Chester trains to lose time. Because (again in normal times) the Ellesmere Ports run 7mins behind once these trains reach the single bore loop it can play havoc with the other 2 lines aswell and easily cause delays to other services. This is where a little gap ie 5mins round the loop can really work wonders.
There are also other pinch points on the Wirral which can cause problems if theres a late running train, Bidston Junction being one example.

Signalling wise the signalling, apart from being upgraded to led signal heads, hasn't really changed since it was installed.
A good example of this is theres 2 stop signals in the tunnel between Lime Street and Liverpool Central. When the loop was first opened the plan was probably to have a train in each section. However with the sections/overlap being so short there's no way under present day signalling rules that could ever happen. That's repeated in various other places round the loop.

Basically the signalling round the loop needs to be redesigned with a recast timetable to match. Then you should be able to feed extra services in there.

 

[cle]

Won't the new stock help with accelerating the run to Chester a little, in regards to the turn-around time? Might Capenhurst be served full time in that instance, to remove an anomaly? Ellesmere should really run on to Helsby and take that spur over. It might have parity with the Chester running time and enable better inter-working.

Wiring to Shotton and severing the Borderlands service there has some merit. It's another N Wales to Liverpool connection, and may encourage development there. But the Wrexham part would be degraded even more, unless it ended at General, and merged to become a Shotton-Shrewsbury or similar, and remove some calls from the Birmingham services.

 

[Gareth]

Yes, the new rolling stock will help the turnaround time on the Chester service. I would think Capenhurst would get 4tph back, as it's currently an anomaly being the only station on the network which doesn't have all trains passing through stopping there.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jan 2021 ==

I Ihink the best option would be to electrify the Borderlands line to Neston or Shotton (Heswall station is quite remote) then TfW retain the Wrexham leg.
Merseyrail to run Shotton/Neston to Liverpool with a new station at Woodchurch. If this happens I suspect that this may only run every 30 minutes and the New Brighton branch then may be cut to every 30 minutes, thereby not increasing the number of Wirral Line trains on the Liverpool Loop.

Again, the problem with that is the interchange between the two halves of the system. Assuming 2tph Merseyrail service to Neston or Shotton, that's a less convenient interchange from the legacy line than Bidston, which has 4tph into Liverpool; although you could, I suppose, time the services to connect.

I'm pretty sure the loop could handle an extra 2tph. There's no way they'd halve the frequency of the New Brighton service. It'd be politically impossible and I doubt it can be justified anyway.

 

[6Gman]

This is why I also suggested closure, seems like it’s a little worthless, and locals may or may not disagree.


2F54 departs Wrexham at 08:34 and arrives into Shotton at 09:01.


Add 2 Xovers at Shotton (1 at each side) for Merseyrail and TfW terminating on their separate platforms. If the Wrexham part of the line was rationalised, it’d be a simple single track situation. Works either way, I’d hope.

So to travel from Wrexham Central to Liverpool I would change twice, rather than once?

And to travel from Wrexham Central to (e.g.) Heswall I would change twice, rather than not at all?

And what sort of train would convey me from Shotton to Liverpool?

 

[HST43257]

So to travel from Wrexham Central to Liverpool I would change twice, rather than once?

Wrexham to Liverpool, in my view should be an extension of the Halton Curve service (all the way to Shrewsbury)

And to travel from Wrexham Central to (e.g.) Heswall I would change twice, rather than not at all?

Yes, but (feel free to prove me wrong) I wouldn’t have Heswall to Wrexham down as a hugely popular flow.

And what sort of train would convey me from Shotton to Liverpool?

777. Might not even need any extra third rail if only going to Shotton because I’m pretty sure they have some sort of battery capability.