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Changes to Hazel Grove/Chinley from May

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northwichcat

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The 17:23 Piccadilly-Chinley will be truncated at Hazel Grove from the May timetable change, this is to allow an EMU to operate the service and to free up a pair of Pacers so that a 185 can be released from TPE North West to South TPE. The 16:55 Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes will call at Chinley in lieu.

I'm not sure if there's any changes in the mornings to allow for an extra EMU working - the Crewe to Bolton working is still there, as is the Wigan-Hazel Grove via Bolton and the unit off the Chester-Stockport still seems to go ECS to Hazel Grove, while an ECS to Hazel Grove from Newton Heath via Denton is also still shown.
 
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northwichcat

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That'll be popular - no use for anyone finishing work at 5pm.

16:55 is the time it leaves the Airport and it sits at Piccadilly for 5 minutes so it's a 17:18 departure from Piccadilly. That service used to call at Chinley but the stop was removed when the 17:23 to Hazel Grove was extended to Chinley. There were actually a couple of people posting complaints on here when that happened citing some people had to collect their children from childcare by 6pm and the later, slower service no longer allowed that.

Overall Chinley does quite well for a village the size it is and the distance it is from Manchester, given they'll be direct departures from Piccadilly at 16:43 (express via Hazel Grove), 16:49 (stopper via Marple), 17:18 (express via Hazel Grove), 17:43 (express via Hazel Grove) and 17:50 (stopper via Marple.) Compare that to Hale, Knutsford or Northwich which get one direct departure between 16:30 and 18:00 - at 17:09. I can see MCRUA renewing their call for the 17:09 slot to be switched for a 17:23 slot again now the Hazel Grove service won't continue to Chinley.
 

Segedunum

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It calls at Picc from 1712 to 1718 so it's not drastically earlier.

*edit* beaten to it.
 

charley_17/7

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Overall Chinley does quite well for a village the size it is and the distance it is from Manchester, ...

It acts as an unofficial parkway for those who can't face the slow crawl to Hazel Grove, or the alternative stopper to Buxton.

When I lived in Ashbourne and worked in Manchester, it was the best of a bad bunch, particularly given the parking, and would attract much more custom given an increase in service.
 

Kite159

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Sorry both, I read it as a departure time from Picc. In that case, that is probably seen as an enhancement (TPE rather than Northern).

On the other hand, less chance of a seat (as the TPE carries onwards to Sheffield/Doncaster, compared to the current service terminating at Chinley)
 

Intercity 225

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Good to hear that EMUs are returning to Hazel Grove. Bit ridiculous that its been so long since its been served by them.
 

Solent&Wessex

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On the other hand, less chance of a seat (as the TPE carries onwards to Sheffield/Doncaster, compared to the current service terminating at Chinley)

Indeed. The 1655 from the Airport is currently wedged to the rafters on leaving Piccadilly. Adding in Chinley passengers certainly won't help matters, and it will probably revert to how it was before it was removed, if not worse, which is leaving people behind at Piccadilly.
 

Starmill

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The 1655 from Manchester Airport is already absolutely packed without any Chinley passengers. I doubt there's any room for them...

Edit: sorry, kwvr34 beat me to it!

Leaving people behind at Piccadilly is bad news. There's always a crowd for Stockport > Sheffield and beyond, many of whom are sold Advance (£8.30 without discount for most every day in May and June) tickets and will be forced to wait an hour if they can't get on. Additionally there may be a few who use the current train for Stockport to Chinley.
 
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northwichcat

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Indeed. The 1655 from the Airport is currently wedged to the rafters on leaving Piccadilly. Adding in Chinley passengers certainly won't help matters, and it will probably revert to how it was before it was removed, if not worse, which is leaving people behind at Piccadilly.

Which was why the Chinley call was removed and the Hazel Grove service was extended to Chinley when Northern got the LM 150s.

Although if TPE can find 3 x 185s to replace 4 x 170s it could potentially allow some 6 car workings between Manchester and Sheffield.

Two 156s will be needed all day long to replace the 185 (see http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2511054#post2511054), so a pair of 142s released from one evening peak service can only be one piece of the jigsaw.

The units used on the evening Chinley service come from Newton Heath so they've not done anything between the morning and evening peaks, so really the questions are:
1. What's going to happen in the morning peak?
2. How do the diagrams get rearranged to find a 4 car 156 - if that is the plan - all TPE North West Sprinter workings had to be 156s due to crew traction knowledge, which will be less of an issue when Northern can use their own crews to work their own units.
 

Greybeard33

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Reportedly TPE is keeping the four 170s until at least July and might then be getting LHCS sets to replace them, so where will it deploy the 185(s) released by ARN?

DMUs that are at Newton Heath between the peaks might well be undergoing routine maintenance, rather than doing nothing.

It seems unlikely that ARN will deploy 142s or even 150s on the remapped TPE services, but I guess an option might be a 156+153 combo on one or more of the diagrams. However, this would be a drastic reduction in capacity between Manchester and Preston compared with 2x185. Otherwise the only option would seem to be internal shuffling such as 1x150 replacing 2x142 or 1x156 on some other services, and consequently 1x142 replacing 1x150 on others.
 

northwichcat

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Reportedly TPE is keeping the four 170s until at least July and might then be getting LHCS sets to replace them, so where will it deploy the 185(s) released by ARN?

With the suggestion being the Pretendolino set will be split in 2 and used to free up 2 x 185s from Liverpool-Newcastle services, as well as provide extra capacity on those services, I think TPE will ideally want a 3rd 185 from somewhere and the diagrams you posted elsewhere do suggest ARN will have 1 less than TPE North West currently use.

TPE might be strengthening the 16:55 Airport-Cleethorpes as far as Sheffield - note the above observations about no room on the train for Chinley passengers. EDIT: This ECS has appeared which will start at the May timetable change so maybe that is the case: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y72945/2016/05/23/advanced

DMUs that are at Newton Heath between the peaks might well be undergoing routine maintenance, rather than doing nothing.

True. Although there are units sat at other stations doing nothing for long periods e.g. 2 x Sprinters are moved to Buxton at the end of the morning peak and moved back to Piccadilly mid-afternoon and they just sit at a platform at Buxton doing nothing.

It seems unlikely that ARN will deploy 142s or even 150s on the remapped TPE services, but I guess an option might be a 156+153 combo on one or more of the diagrams. However, this would be a drastic reduction in capacity between Manchester and Preston compared with 2x185. Otherwise the only option would seem to be internal shuffling such as 1x150 replacing 2x142 or 1x156 on some other services, and consequently 1x142 replacing 1x150 on others.

I don't think we can automatically presume all North West TPE services will transfer will be operated by either 185s or pairs of 156s. For instance, the one you have down as diagrams 3+8 doesn't seem to involve any services which will be carrying Manchester commuters or large numbers of day trippers in the summer, so could that finish up as a single 156 with a pair of 142s replacing a 156 elsewhere?

Also while Northern don't use 158s on any west side diagrams currently and the timings still show 75mph Sprinters I don't think we can completely rule out 158s being used, either in 2 or 3 car formation. Blackpool and Victoria crews do sign 158s while I imagine the Chester-Calder Valley and Liverpool-Calder Valley services could be operated by 158s initially until the new CAF trains arrive, so training some more western crews on 158s might be beneficial.
 
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Greybeard33

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I don't think we can automatically presume all North West TPE services will transfer will be operated by either 185s or pairs of 156s. For instance, the one you have down as diagrams 3+8 doesn't seem to involve any services which will be carrying Manchester commuters or large numbers of day trippers in the summer, so could that finish up as a single 156 with a pair of 142s replacing a 156 elsewhere?

Also while Northern don't use 158s on any west side diagrams currently and the timings still show 75mph Sprinters I don't think we can completely rule out 158s being used, either in 2 or 3 car formation. Blackpool and Victoria crews do sign 158s while I imagine the Chester-Calder Valley and Liverpool-Calder Valley services could be operated by 158s initially until the new CAF trains arrive, so training some more western crews on 158s might be beneficial.
Two of the morning services included in 'Diagram 3+8' are currently worked by double 185s, while all the afternoon and evening services in this diagram are currently worked by double 156s. That is why I assumed that at least 4 carriages would be needed.

Northern's track access application asked for either 185 or 156 timing loads for all the remapped services, so there would be no great advantage in transferring 90mph 158s to the west versus using 2, 3 or 4 car formations of the 156s and 153s already based there. Do the TPE traincrew who will be TUPE'd to ARN currently sign 158s?
 

FordFocus

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Two of the morning services included in 'Diagram 3+8' are currently worked by double 185s, while all the afternoon and evening services in this diagram are currently worked by double 156s. That is why I assumed that at least 4 carriages would be needed.

Northern's track access application asked for either 185 or 156 timing loads for all the remapped services, so there would be no great advantage in transferring 90mph 158s to the west versus using 2, 3 or 4 car formations of the 156s and 153s already based there. Do the TPE traincrew who will be TUPE'd to ARN currently sign 158s?

I think the only TPE Traincrew that sign 158s are at Scarborough for Northern work, so no good for the west side services.

158s are signed by existing Northern crews at Blackpool and Victoria, so it's workable.
 

northwichcat

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Two of the morning services included in 'Diagram 3+8' are currently worked by double 185s, while all the afternoon and evening services in this diagram are currently worked by double 156s. That is why I assumed that at least 4 carriages would be needed.

What are the loadings like? Sometimes services get doubled up for operational convenience. While I imagine TPE campaigned hard to get enough 156s to run them all doubled up, so they didn't have lots of services which lost First Class, seat reservations and the trolley service without gaining additional seats.

so there would be no great advantage in transferring 90mph 158s to the west versus using 2, 3 or 4 car formations of the 156s and 153s already based there.

There's also a number of a lot of Yorkshire routes where 158s are running services timed for 75mph DMUs. Calder Valley sees plenty of 158s on services timed for 75mph DMUs - only the Blackpool to York ones are timed for 90mph.

153s aren't actually based in the west, they are all allocated to Neville Hill with a couple coming across to work on west side services. I know Victoria crews must sign 153s and Piccadilly ones don't but do Blackpool ones? If not there's not many crews who'd have the route knowledge and traction knowledge to be able to take a 153 on an Airport-Blackpool service.

Do the TPE traincrew who will be TUPE'd to ARN currently sign 158s?

I imagine the only TPE crews who retain 158 knowledge will be the ones based at Scarborough/Hull due to TPE crews working some Scarborough-Hull services on behalf of Northern.
 

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It could be that those APs remain cheap on that train because they're using a yeild map for a 6 car train. May be able to tell by having a look if there are reservations available for D, E or F.
 

Greybeard33

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153s aren't actually based in the west, they are all allocated to Neville Hill with a couple coming across to work on west side services. I know Victoria crews must sign 153s and Piccadilly ones don't but do Blackpool ones? If not there's not many crews who'd have the route knowledge and traction knowledge to be able to take a 153 on an Airport-Blackpool service.
Northern uses 153s on Barrow-Lancaster-Morecambe services. Which depot(s) provide crews for them?
 

northernchris

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Northern uses 153s on Barrow-Lancaster-Morecambe services. Which depot(s) provide crews for them?

I think Barrow provides the crew for the Lancaster-Morecambe, and Blackpool crews work the Preston-Ormskirk

jcollins said:
Calder Valley sees plenty of 158s on services timed for 75mph DMUs - only the Blackpool to York ones are timed for 90mph.

I thought the Blackpool-York was timed for 75mph? I've done Preston-Leeds on a 155 in the past and it kept to time
 

clagmonster

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TPE might be strengthening the 16:55 Airport-Cleethorpes as far as Sheffield - note the above observations about no room on the train for Chinley passengers. EDIT: This ECS has appeared which will start at the May timetable change so maybe that is the case: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y72945/2016/05/23/advanced
You could be onto something, but I don't think it's quite that simple. Said ecs is 5K22 and goes into platform 3, presumably working 1K22 to Hull. That leaves the inbound unit from Hull, which conveniently is booked platform 5, the same as the aforementioned Airport - Cleethorpes. Dwell time is a little tight at Sheffield though to rip the rear unit, only 2 minutes. Even if it stays on it will need tipping out due to the short platform at Meadowhall.
 

louis97

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You could be onto something, but I don't think it's quite that simple. Said ecs is 5K22 and goes into platform 3, presumably working 1K22 to Hull. That leaves the inbound unit from Hull, which conveniently is booked platform 5, the same as the aforementioned Airport - Cleethorpes. Dwell time is a little tight at Sheffield though to rip the rear unit, only 2 minutes. Even if it stays on it will need tipping out due to the short platform at Meadowhall.

TPE have made a modification to the 185s to allow the rear 2 coaches to be kept locked at short platforms, this would mean it could run with all 6 coaches in service to Cleethorpes. The extra set could then form the double set towards Manchester the following day, which seems to detach at Manchester Airport.
 

northwichcat

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You could be onto something, but I don't think it's quite that simple. Said ecs is 5K22 and goes into platform 3, presumably working 1K22 to Hull. That leaves the inbound unit from Hull, which conveniently is booked platform 5, the same as the aforementioned Airport - Cleethorpes. Dwell time is a little tight at Sheffield though to rip the rear unit, only 2 minutes. Even if it stays on it will need tipping out due to the short platform at Meadowhall.

I don't think too much notice should be taken to platform numbers at present. If you look at all services it states the next departure from platform 3 after that ECS arrives is a Glossop service with no Northern arrival between the ECS and the Glossop departure! http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/MAN/2016/05/23/1627
 

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I think Barrow provides the crew for the Lancaster-Morecambe, and Blackpool crews work the Preston-Ormskirk



I thought the Blackpool-York was timed for 75mph? I've done Preston-Leeds on a 155 in the past and it kept to time

Wigan Wallgate traincrew also sign Lancaster-Morecambe/Barrow and sign 153's.
 

Greybeard33

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I don't think too much notice should be taken to platform numbers at present. If you look at all services it states the next departure from platform 3 after that ECS arrives is a Glossop service with no Northern arrival between the ECS and the Glossop departure! http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/MAN/2016/05/23/1627
As you point out, there is clearly a clash in Platform 3 occupancy between TPE and Northern, which hopefully will be noticed and corrected before the timetable change. Otherwise 2H87, the 1631 PIccadilly via Glossop circular, will find itself trapped behind the 185 in Platform 3 until the latter departs for Hull at 1641 as 1K22 (the 323 arrives in Platform 3 at 1517, ECS from Longsight as 5H87). The obvious solution is for the signaller to delay arrival of the 5K22 ECS 185 (nominally scheduled at 1627) until after the 323 departs at 1631.

But as clagmonster pointed out, ECS moves are usually numbered to match the associated service in the same diagram. So 5K22 from Ardwick will almost certainly form 1K22 to Hull, while the 185 off 1K19, which arrives from Hull at 1634, will wait in Platform 5 to be coupled to 1B86, the 1718 to Cleethorpes.

This interworking between the Hull and Cleethorpes services is no doubt part of the musical chairs of 185 unit rotations that ensure each unit returns to Ardwick every few days.
 

edwin_m

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But as clagmonster pointed out, ECS moves are usually numbered to match the associated service in the same diagram. So 5K22 from Ardwick will almost certainly form 1K22 to Hull, while the 185 off 1K19, which arrives from Hull at 1634, will wait in Platform 5 to be coupled to 1B86, the 1718 to Cleethorpes.

So if all this is correct the 1718 will be formed of 6 cars instead of 3 today, which ought to get rid of the overcrowding problem and provide some space for the extra Chinley passengers.

Doubles all round!
 

Greybeard33

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So if all this is correct the 1718 will be formed of 6 cars instead of 3 today, which ought to get rid of the overcrowding problem and provide some space for the extra Chinley passengers.

Doubles all round!
Not today I'm afraid - from the May timetable change. Until then all the diagrams are unchanged - Northern just borrows the 185s from TPE for the remapped Blackpool/Barrow/Windermere services instead of TPE borrowing the 156s from Northern. The Northern Chinley service also continues till the timetable change.
 

edwin_m

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Not today I'm afraid - from the May timetable change. Until then all the diagrams are unchanged - Northern just borrows the 185s from TPE for the remapped Blackpool/Barrow/Windermere services instead of TPE borrowing the 156s from Northern. The Northern Chinley service also continues till the timetable change.

Yes, I meant the "today" to apply to the 3 not the 6!
 
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