Changes in bus services to support the Elizabeth line

[Busaholic]

Surely that's the anomaly here? How busy would the 25 be if there was no financial incentive to use it? We constantly criticise places outside London for not integrating bus/tram/rail fares. We are looking forward to Greater Manchester bus franchising as it gives an opportunity to integrate fares and cut wasteful duplication. The places that we normally hold up for public transport excellence like Zurich usually have integrated fares.

There is surely no major city in the world with such disparity of fares between different modes of public transport as in London: of course it skews the choices people make. I would suggest it leaves many with no choice, as they simply can't afford the fares charged on the railways of different hues, including the Underground.

 

[carlberry]

Surely that's the anomaly here? How busy would the 25 be if there was no financial incentive to use it? We constantly criticise places outside London for not integrating bus/tram/rail fares. We are looking forward to Greater Manchester bus franchising as it gives an opportunity to integrate fares and cut wasteful duplication. The places that we normally hold up for public transport excellence like Zurich usually have integrated fares.

Who is looking forward to it? Not the bus users that will be inconvenienced, or priced off as everything has to be sacrificed for the good of the mega project!

 

[Busaholic]

I very much agree, it was inevitable that the 25 would be withdrawn from Oxford Circus when Crossrail opened and I can't see any rational argument against that and whilst there needs to be a bit of slack in the network TfL can't possibly justify running excessive buses just in case there is a tube strike. There has been a considerable drop in Central London bus usage and it will undoubtedly drop further when Crossrail opens and TfL have to cut their cloth accordingly.

I can see why you, and others, believe the 25 should be cut back post-Crossrail from Oxford Circus, although I still don't consider it inevitable. I was pleasantly surprised that such a proposal did not feature in the Oxford Street sham consultation, instead believing that the 8 continuing to use its 'temporary' terminus at Tottenham Court Road was the extent to which bus services in a direct easterly direction would be affected, along with the 242 being cut back from TCR to St. Paul's, a change already instigated. That is why I cry 'foul' now that the 25 is to be halted at Holborn Circus- I still maintain my suspicion that those who decided that had no idea that you could no longer get a direct connection to Oxford Circus from there and, if this plan comes to fruition, then the 8 being reconnected to OC should be a by-product.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is surely no major city in the world with such disparity of fares between different modes of public transport as in London: of course it skews the choices people make. I would suggest it leaves many with no choice, as they simply can't afford the fares charged on the railways of different hues, including the Underground.

They would be genuinely better offering discounts to certain demographics than skewing network usage via the fares system.

 

[radamfi]

Who is looking forward to it? Not the bus users that will be inconvenienced, or priced off as everything has to be sacrificed for the good of the mega project!

Putting aside changing the bus network, do you think it makes sense for bus fares to be set totally independent of other modes, so that people making multi-modal single journeys pay through the nose?

 

[Antman]

I can see why you, and others, believe the 25 should be cut back post-Crossrail from Oxford Circus, although I still don't consider it inevitable. I was pleasantly surprised that such a proposal did not feature in the Oxford Street sham consultation, instead believing that the 8 continuing to use its 'temporary' terminus at Tottenham Court Road was the extent to which bus services in a direct easterly direction would be affected, along with the 242 being cut back from TCR to St. Paul's, a change already instigated. That is why I cry 'foul' now that the 25 is to be halted at Holborn Circus- I still maintain my suspicion that those who decided that had no idea that you could no longer get a direct connection to Oxford Circus from there and, if this plan comes to fruition, then the 8 being reconnected to OC should be a by-product.

It's not what I think should happen but what I anticipated TfL doing, Crossrail will provide a direct link between the West End and Ilford so they are hardly going to leave a bus service in place that does the exact same thing. As a previous poster mentioned far better to use resources on feeder services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Putting aside changing the bus network, do you think it makes sense for bus fares to be set totally independent of other modes, so that people making multi-modal single journeys pay through the nose?

At least they have now packed in fining people for not having a direct bus to their destination. Took them long enough.

The fare structure in London is still an old-fashioned mess, though. There should be one set of transparent fares for all modes, plus a first class upgrade for cases where that exists (that could be used for river services, perhaps). And if that might price some parts of society off, they should receive appropriate discounts on all modes, not just be forced onto buses.

 

[Busaholic]

It's not what I think should happen but what I anticipated TfL doing, Crossrail will provide a direct link between the West End and Ilford so they are hardly going to leave a bus service in place that does the exact same thing. As a previous poster mentioned far better to use resources on feeder services.

Except they are, apparently, leaving a bus service in place between the edge of the West End and Ilford. I anticipated that, if anything, the 25 would be cut back at the Ilford end, to run Stratford to Oxford Circus, leaving the Ilford end to the 86 and the extended 425, which would continue the link through to Bow and Mile End. Holborn Circus was an important terminus in trolleybus days because its road layout was favourable and, in any case, the City Corporation and Westminster Council would not allow them any further. It has never been anything other than an emergency turnback for buses from the East, for the simple reason that it's not a traffic objective in itself.

 

[Wolfie]

At least they have now packed in fining people for not having a direct bus to their destination. Took them long enough.

The fare structure in London is still an old-fashioned mess, though. There should be one set of transparent fares for all modes, plus a first class upgrade for cases where that exists (that could be used for river services, perhaps). And if that might price some parts of society off, they should receive appropriate discounts on all modes, not just be forced onto buses.

I strongly suspect that one of the reasons for the price disparity between buses and rail in London is to get the price sensitive to use the former. While the Elizabeth line will indeed create much additional capacity in E-W journeys there are still many other rail/tube links that only manage to operate successfully now due to the proportion of traffic skimmed off by bus. If you level the prices as you are advocating you will almost certainly break large parts of the tube and London rail networks..

 

[Bletchleyite]

I strongly suspect that one of the reasons for the price disparity between buses and rail in London is to get the price sensitive to use the former. While the Elizabeth line will indeed create much additional capacity in E-W journeys there are still many other rail/tube links that only manage to operate successfully now due to the proportion of traffic skimmed off by bus. If you level the prices as you are advocating you will almost certainly break large parts of the tube and London rail networks..

I do recognise this in some cases, but at the very least a bus journey before, after or in the middle of a Tube/rail journey should be free. The fare structure actively discourages use for the thing it does best!

 

[Busaholic]

I strongly suspect that one of the reasons for the price disparity between buses and rail in London is to get the price sensitive to use the former. While the Elizabeth line will indeed create much additional capacity in E-W journeys there are still many other rail/tube links that only manage to operate successfully now due to the proportion of traffic skimmed off by bus. If you level the prices as you are advocating you will almost certainly break large parts of the tube and London rail networks..

The price sensitive can also be some of those with the least free time to call their own, though. I can't remember the name of the TV series now, but it was on the BBC a few years ago and one programme featured people using buses at night. I well remember that, along with the hedonists travelling from Camden Town on the N29, were hotel cleaners heading out to Ilford from the Southampton Row area, some having completed their second or third job that day. With these changes, the 25 won't touch Southampton Row, of course, unless they make an exception for the night service.

 

[plcd1]

Is it really? Or is it a sensible approach to using buses for what they are demonstrably good at in cities - feeding the rapid transit rail system - and stopping wasting road capacity on duplicating it?

On your other point, it is ludicrous to run bus routes just in case of a Tube strike. If there is a Tube strike, hire in buses from all over the country and run rail replacement.

I know you adore the Germanic form of transport integration Neil but we don't have it here nor do we have the financial framework to support it. If the tube had capacity and was fully accessible and much more dense than it is then fine I might agree with you. However it is old, mostly inacessible, chronically overloaded in the peaks and many lines are extremely busy in the off peak in the centre. The network also misses a number of areas in the centre and some journeys are cumbersome with multiple changes. We do not have tram networks as are common in Germany to provide those infill services. Therefore we use buses or at least we did until the current onslaught started.

I am afraid we will just have to disagree. I believe the transport network should provide a reasonable level of resilience. Nowhere did I say we should just run buses in case of a strike. I said that when there is a strike people will not be able be travel because so many links have been reduced or removed. That is not the same thing at all.

What is being done to the bus network at the moment is an enormous mistake and without electoral mandate. That is unacceptable.