Change to EMR First Class - what will it mean?

[Mark Nicoll]

I commuted between Leicester and St Pancras every day for four years in first class; usually on the 06:38 down and an evening train back north, from 2017 through to Covid.

The breakfast prepared by the chefs was - without fail - excellent.

The service of delivering the breakfast by the Sheffield based crew was less good - miserable mouthy sods most of the time. The following breakfast train out of Nottingham which I sometimes took had much better serving staff but same high quality breakfast.

The northbound trains in the evening offered free wine and I also think free basic cocktails like G&T and for a while they offered free hot snacks, but this gave way to a paid option - I particularly remember the curries were excellent.

At its best the food service was OK, however not a patch on One when I lived near Chelmsford and worked in London; I would regularly get the 19:30 Norwich train and by the time I got to Chelmsford I’d had two courses. And the food really was excellent.

So it can be done over short distances - even if on occasion I was finalising the bill payment, me on the platform and the staff at the open droplight window.

However, the best dining experience I recall was when I used the 17:30 Euston to Glasgow, every couple of weeks on a Friday, in Inter-City days. Proper menu, great selection, well-prepared and great service. Even the fellow diners were interesting, with many Scots based MPs using that train to get home for the weekend. The five-hour journey seemed to go in no time at all.

Today’s offerings on the Manchester Cardiff services are on a par with the best everyday train dining I have ever experienced - back in April a special collaboration with a local chef produced some fantastic dining experiences over relatively short journeys - every meal was top quality. I hope they keep the scourge of anything high quality (accountants) at bay, but once again, it shows what can be done.

I suspect EMR have asked themselves ‘what do we know about running a restaurant’ and have decided the answer is ‘not enough, so let’s reduce it to something we understand better’. I could cynically come up with the same answer if I asked them what they know about running a train service… but that’s another topic.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Welcome to the Forums @Mark Nicoll . Some interesting stuff there.

Can I ask if your trains were usually HSTs or Meridians? Also interested in how many fellow travellers you saw ‘tucking in’ on a typical day.

With the trend towards healthier eating (and I include myself) the days of a full English rather than a couple of things like muesli, fruit juice, a small pastry or coffee are long gone for many even if they existed in the first place. Similarly a snifter on the way home, especially when travelling alone or with a car to drive on the final leg.

 

[Mark Nicoll]

Welcome to the Forums @Mark Nicoll . Some interesting stuff there.

Can I ask if your trains were usually HSTs or Meridians? Also interested in how many fellow travellers you saw ‘tucking in’ on a typical day.

With the trend towards healthier eating (and I include myself) the days of a full English rather than a couple of things like muesli, fruit juice, a small pastry or coffee are long gone for many even if they existed in the first place. Similarly a snifter on the way home, especially when travelling alone or with a car to drive on the final leg.

Thanks @Dr Hoo - yes I’ve long said that meals and train travel are made for each other and I’ve sought them out wherever in the world I’ve been. On EMT I used to go out of my way for HSTs so most of my journeys were avoiding Meridians. That said if I wanted to be home early enough I would take whatever the first train was at Pancras so I had plenty of Meridians too.

Patronage was always pretty full from Leicester on the early trains - two and a half coaches of most of them having the full cooked. On the Nottingham starter it was slightly less busy but still probably the majority took the full cooked.

I know what you mean about calories though. I quickly progressed on to just two slices of bacon and two eggs - even with that I was full the whole day! As for booze on the train - another pleasure sadly eroded. I live in Scotland now and a teaspoon of cough mixture is enough to put you over the limit. When I lived in the centre of Leicester it was fine because I walked to and from the station but now my closest station Kintore is a good 25mns away by car.

Going further back I used to have a soft spot for breakfast on the REPs out of Waterloo - price was £2.95 albeit when a bag of chips was 22p! And breakfast on the griddle cars on the ScR was always a rare treat - in the even more distant past.

I recently sampled both avanti and LNER breakfasts and whilst they can be best described as functional, I would be sad to see them go. Top of the list of current UK offering though is the TFW loco hauled and the GWR Pullman. Neither are free but for me they really make the journey.

 

[tocguard]

I commuted between Leicester and St Pancras every day for four years in first class; usually on the 06:38 down and an evening train back north, from 2017 through to Covid.

The breakfast prepared by the chefs was - without fail - excellent.

The service of delivering the breakfast by the Sheffield based crew was less good - miserable mouthy sods most of the time. The following breakfast train out of Nottingham which I sometimes took had much better serving staff but same high quality breakfast.

The 0638 HST from Leicester was always a Sheffield crew, so the comment you made has kind of contradicted itself.

Sheffield crewed the 3x HST breakfast trains from Leeds/Sheffield.

Derby crewed the 10car 222 0647 from Sheffield, the 7 car 222 0727 Master Cutler and the 7 car 222 0750 Robin Hood from Nottingham. The latter was later changed to the 0710 HST from Nottingham based on crew feedback that the 0750 was too late.

The 0855 and 0955 trains from St Pancras to Sheffield were also unofficially breakfast trains. They weren't advertised but were returning crew and stock with a few regulars taking advantage. We had tried to get a northbound train advertised but unfortunately it was seen as unable to be guarenteed as any requirement to top up breakfast stock at London was unavailable.

 

[Mark Nicoll]

The 0638 HST from Leicester was always a Sheffield crew, so the comment you made has kind of contradicted itself.

Sheffield crewed the 3x HST breakfast trains from Leeds/Sheffield.

Derby crewed the 10car 222 0647 from Sheffield, the 7 car 222 0727 Master Cutler and the 7 car 222 0750 Robin Hood from Nottingham. The latter was later changed to the 0710 HST from Nottingham based on crew feedback that the 0750 was too late.

The 0855 and 0955 trains from St Pancras to Sheffield were also unofficially breakfast trains. They weren't advertised but were returning crew and stock with a few regulars taking advantage. We had tried to get a northbound train advertised but unfortunately it was seen as unable to be guarenteed as any requirement to top up breakfast stock at London was unavailable.

Which contradiction?

 

[tocguard]

Which contradiction?

Maybe I read it wrong? Sounded like you were saying the Sheffield based breakfast trains crew wasn't as good as the Derby based crew but from the time you'd quoted, would suggest you were regularly on a Sheffield based crew service?

 

[Mark Nicoll]

Maybe I read it wrong? Sounded like you were saying the Sheffield based breakfast trains crew wasn't as good as the Derby based crew but from the time you'd quoted, would suggest you were regularly on a Sheffield based crew service?

My main train started back at Leeds and was usually a Sheffield crew. That was the 0638 off LEI. I sometimes used the 0707 which started back at Notts.

Def difference in quality between the service crews. Sheffield invariably miserable, Notts (Derby) highly engaged. Not every time but over the several years it held true - perhaps the earlier start was to blame as I understand they were taxied to Leeds at an ungodly hour. Chefs were always good quality, just the serving staff.

In the evening it was invariably a London crew and they were also usually good going north - apart from one real madam who always reacted to requests for an extra glass of wine as though you had just made an improper proposal to her. Whenever she was on I always asked for an extra glass of wine - petty I know but satisfying.

 

[sh24]

The exciting new service routine starts with this table top menu.

However there was no sign of the promised salads or wraps, just boring sandwiches. I think the Burts crisps are new? So really it is very much same same as before apart from the direct upsell of booze.

 

[liamf656]

The exciting new service routine starts with this table top menu.

However there was no sign of the promised salads or wraps, just boring sandwiches. I think the Burts crisps are new? So really it is very much same same as before apart from the direct upsell of booze.

Nothing has changed for long distance journeys, you'll still get a sandwich or salad (wraps only depend on the rotation) as well as the usual snacks. Burts crisps have been part of the menu for years now, but only lightly salted

 

[lyesbkz]

Alright, so after the ticket check you're given the fancy disposable placemat shown above if you're deemed to be travelling far enough to qualify for the proper service, otherwise you get a drink and a biscuit. After that it's basically "no placemat, no service"

Today they were saying a longer journey is 40 minutes and above. Sheffield to Derby doesn't qualify, Sheffield to Leicester does. Already seen one person not happy about how another passenger was allowed a sandwich for going a stop further. I'm not passing judgement either way but I can tell it's a matter of time before it kicks off when somebody on a cheap standard advance to St Pancras plus Seatfrog is allowed a sarnie but someone on an £80 FOR to Derby isn't.

Currently there is a bit of confusion around exactly what items are included for shorter journeys. Yesterday was strictly a drink and a biscuit. Today it was a drink plus either a biscuit or bag of crisps. Stay tuned for further updates

p.s. Crikey, the cost of the paid drinks has gone up a fair bit!

 

[duffield]

...

Today they were saying a longer journey is 40 minutes and above.
...

Oh no. That's bonkers, rather than at least doing it by station pairs.

That means if you travel from Nottingham to Market Harborough, you get full catering if you travel on the xx12 (takes 44 minutes) and not if you travel on the limited stop xx50 (takes 35 minutes).

They really haven't thought this through.

 

[liamf656]

Oh no. That's bonkers, rather than at least doing it by station pairs.

That means if you travel from Nottingham to Market Harborough, you get full catering if you travel on the xx12 (takes 44 minutes) and not if you travel on the limited stop xx50 (takes 35 minutes).

They really haven't thought this through

I can say for certain that Notts/Derby to Leicester is a short journey regardless of stopping pattern

Notts to Market Harborough is a long journey and you'll get the full offer

 

[Travelmonkey]

The exciting new service routine starts with this table top menu.

However there was no sign of the promised salads or wraps, just boring sandwiches. I think the Burts crisps are new? So really it is very much same same as before apart from the direct upsell of booze.

The Salted Carmel and almond porridge sounds nice. Burts have been their crisp supplier for a while I know they occasionally have some special flavours on the trolley in standard too. Are the 1st class hosts also rail gourmet subcontractors or actually under EMR payroll?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Sep 2025 ==

Nothing has changed for long distance journeys, you'll still get a sandwich or salad (wraps only depend on the rotation) as well as the usual snacks. Burts crisps have been part of the menu for years now, but only lightly salted

They do also have some special flavours on occasion but that's more of a festive thing.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Sep 2025 ==

.

Currently there is a bit of confusion around exactly what items are included for shorter journeys. Yesterday was strictly a drink and a biscuit. Today it was a drink plus either a biscuit or bag of crisps. Stay tuned for further updates

p.s. Crikey, the cost of the paid drinks has gone up a fair bit!

I think it all depends on the crew on shift. Some don't question me when their colleagues put me in 1st but others wanna see my ticket so quickly you'd think they're on commission as RPIs,

The cost of any on train catering is always eye wateringly high £4 to Hoole consultancy (Cross Country trolley) for a small coffee and pack of maltessers on Saturday or £7.64 (with 10% discount) for my meal deal on avanti the week before.

Catering needs to be good for both classes of customer but EMR have the same issues as XC especially in standard where trains are too rammed to get a trolley through. Hopefully they don't go down the GC route where you can only get 2 items on the app as a First class perk, or your meant to I tend to sneak 2 coffees,

 

[43066]

Are the 1st class hosts also rail gourmet subcontractors or actually under EMR payroll?

They’re most definitely EMR employees.

 

[liamf656]

The Salted Carmel and almond porridge sounds nice. Burts have been their crisp supplier for a while I know they occasionally have some special flavours on the trolley in standard too. Are the 1st class hosts also rail gourmet subcontractors or actually under EMR payroll?

The first class hosts are EMR employed, the standard class hosts are RG

 

[styles]

With the trend towards healthier eating (and I include myself) the days of a full English rather than a couple of things like muesli, fruit juice, a small pastry or coffee are long gone for many even if they existed in the first place. Similarly a snifter on the way home, especially when travelling alone or with a car to drive on the final leg.

Just on this, I think it's possible to offer cooked-to-order food which is more than a fry-up.

Frittata, omelette, protein pancakes, shakshuka, eggs with smoked salmon, etc.

For non-breakfast meals the world is they're oyster for cooked dishes.

 

[sprunt]

Today they were saying a longer journey is 40 minutes and above.

Sorry, who's "they" here? Has there been a clarification from EMR, or is this just what the on-train staff are saying?

I'm not passing judgement either way but I can tell it's a matter of time before it kicks off when somebody on a cheap standard advance to St Pancras plus Seatfrog is allowed a sarnie but someone on an £80 FOR to Derby isn't.

I'm not saying this roll-out hasn't been shambolic, but how would passenger B know what type of ticket passenger A has?

 

[STINT47]

If your travelling Sheffield to Derby and want the full offer then buy a ticket to Long Eaton.

It's the same price but the journey is exactly 40 minuets so you'll get the full offer. You can then alight at Derby.

 

[styles]

If your travelling Sheffield to Derby and want the full offer then buy a ticket to Long Eaton.

It's the same price but the journey is exactly 40 minuets so you'll get the full offer. You can then alight at Derby.

Not permitted on an Advance ticket though, and Derby does have barriers.

 

[STINT47]

Not permitted on an Advance ticket though, and Derby does have barriers.

But it would be on an off peak day return and the difference between standard and first is only £7 so you can get it back with drunks and food.

 

[WesternLancer]

In my opinion the fact new trains are being launched is a MASSIVE missed opportunity to revamp First Class. In recent years the offering has become absolutely dire. Designated breakfast trains have gone. Drinks are served in tacky disposable cups which are not environmentally friendly and an ongoing cost to replenish. Food offering seems to be a bare minimum rotation of two sandwiches and a onion bhaji wrap, which would get very boring, very quickly.

This latest attempt to make changes seems to be for the worse, yet again. I've heard rumours of more tackiness in the form of pre-pakaged cardboard boxes to get handed out as "AM" and "PM" offerings, containing snacks. Instead of passengers being offered a selection of items, this idea means people may get items they didn't want/don't like and could get wasted. Being handed out unnecessarily equals more cost waste.

People have commented about First Class tickets being "too cheap" which seems a bizarre stance to take. I wouldn't particularly describe many tickets in the UK as being cheap, let alone too cheap.

The First offering is relatively measly and disappointing in comparison to other TOCs and whilst some routes may command higher prices, they most certainly offer much much more, and in my view, what First Class is actually about. Let's not forget that most EMR services only have one customer host doing the service as opposed to Avanti, LNER, GWR etc that regularly have crews of 3+. EMR are in comparison, saving a lot of money on staff but still offering very little, with this looking to be even less shortly. The First Class is routinely busy so there is demand and revenue coming in so why not use the 810s introduction to woo people to an "improved" First Class, even if advance tickets are priced a little higher (if they really are too cheap) to pay for a little extra offering? It works on other TOCs and keeps First accommodation busy so why would you keep chipping away at what is offered. I feel this massively devalues the point of First and takes away the special premium that will perhaps make a lot of people feel it is not worth the extra cost.

Good analysis

 

[jthjth]

Good analysis

I thought the purpose of first class was
a) to have more roomy seating
b) to reduce the likelihood of having to stand
c) to reduce the chance of sharing your journey with people who don’t know how to behave in public

Many (most?) continental train services don’t have free food and drink in first.

 

[WesternLancer]

I thought the purpose of first class was
a) to have more roomy seating
b) to reduce the likelihood of having to stand
c) to reduce the chance of sharing your journey with people who don’t know how to behave in public

Many (most?) continental train services don’t have free food and drink in first.

Traditionally it was. But my take is that on privatisation first class fares were not subject to the regulation that was set relating to certain standard class tickets.

As a result the new TOCs saw this as a quick way to change the product and their income streams (mush quicker than fundamental change with buying new rolling stock etc etc) and the first class market was a target market - in their rhetoric Virgin was pretty bullish about this - note the high proportion of 1st class carriages in their original Pendolino layouts which was no doubt aimed at growing this market, when those trains came on stream.

So my hypothesis is that TOCs increased first class fares significantly above inflation post c1994 and many would have found a way to justify this by providing 'free' or enhanced food offers to first class ticket holders - given that the costs of the food provision was relatively low compared with the increased cost in the fares.

As I have often posted in these discussion I much prefer the continental approach - if you want food and drink it's (sometimes) available but you pay for it. As a result it's a 'choice to buy' product so hopefully a better quality to ensure people choose to actually buy it - I realise this is a broad comment given the vast range of 1st class operations continentally but the general point is made. The GWR Pullman and the TfW dining service, IMHO' confirm my view on this quality of product wise....

Continental trains seem to still often have the convention of a 1st class fare being 50% more than a standard class fare. That's very rarely the case in the UK if you compare standard and first class differential fares on walk up pricing.

 

[tocguard]

I thought the purpose of first class was
a) to have more roomy seating
b) to reduce the likelihood of having to stand
c) to reduce the chance of sharing your journey with people who don’t know how to behave in public

Many (most?) continental train services don’t have free food and drink in first.

But this isn't continental Europe. This is the UK and specifically EMR and first class, an operator who has for decades offered complimentary items. There is definitely a cause to highlight the erosion of this. The "first class" experience is a "premium" offering at a higher price point. Tickets aren't going to get cheaper by the offering becoming worse. It devalues the experience. Perhaps this is where the Standard Premium has a place. If, I suspect correctly, you just prefer the wider seat and accommodation differences then that is Standard Premium and maybe that ought to have been looked at by all intercity operators, particularly as new trains were ordered. I think there could well be a shift of people preferring that kind of thing where available. But at the same time I think there is still a desire and a market for proper First Class with staff serving refreshments, particularly on longer distance journeys. At the moment it looks like First Class is slowly slipping towards Standard Premium at EMR.

P.S there are operators in other countries who offer complimentary items in Business/First Class. Regiojet is very competitive in the upgrade cost and includes complimentary items.

 

[jthjth]

Traditionally it was. But my take is that on privatisation first class fares were not subject to the regulation that was set relating to certain standard class tickets.

As a result the new TOCs saw this as a quick way to change the product and their income streams (mush quicker than fundamental change with buying new rolling stock etc etc) and the first class market was a target market - in their rhetoric Virgin was pretty bullish about this - note the high proportion of 1st class carriages in their original Pendolino layouts which was no doubt aimed at growing this market, when those trains came on stream.

So my hypothesis is that TOCs increased first class fares significantly above inflation post c1994 and many would have found a way to justify this by providing 'free' or enhanced food offers to first class ticket holders - given that the costs of the food provision was relatively low compared with the increased cost in the fares.

As I have often posted in these discussion I much prefer the continental approach - if you want food and drink it's (sometimes) available but you pay for it. As a result it's a 'choice to buy' product so hopefully a better quality to ensure people choose to actually buy it - I realise this is a broad comment given the vast range of 1st class operations continentally but the general point is made. The GWR Pullman and the TfW dining service, IMHO' confirm my view on this quality of product wise....

Continental trains seem to still often have the convention of a 1st class fare being 50% more than a standard class fare. That's very rarely the case in the UK if you compare standard and first class differential fares on walk up pricing.

EMR pricing is not as you say, which might have something to do with their attempts to reduce the first class free catering.
A Leicester to St Pancras Anytime standard return is £211, in first it is £265.
A super off peak return is £81 standard vs £114 first.

 

[sheff1]

Sorry, who's "they" here?

Possibly the same "they" who Sheffield booking office invoke when they refuse to sell tickets which other booking office (including EMR staffed ones) sell without quible.

 

[Travelmonkey]

Just on this, I think it's possible to offer cooked-to-order food which is more than a fry-up.

Frittata, omelette, protein pancakes, shakshuka, eggs with smoked salmon, etc.

For non-breakfast meals the world is they're oyster for cooked dishes.

I know the Salmon & eggs is my go too on avanti these days when I am in the posh seat/space,

 

[styles]

I know the Salmon & eggs is my go too on avanti these days when I am in the posh seat/space,

I often can't eat a full English/Scottish/Welsh these days so my preference is for something like eggs Benedict or salmon and scrambled eggs really. LNER, Avanti, Caledonian Sleeper cater to this well.

 

[kevjs]

For reference, I'm currently on the 2132 out of St Pancras which incidentally is the last Sheffield due to engineering works tonight, so it's possibly a little busier than normal.

... The crew were pushing them too saying "we can't give them away". Unless there are particularly bad trains where people take the mickey, as a semi regular occupier of First, the uptake of catering seems fairly consistent. If every passenger departing St Pancras is in theory entitled to everything, but yet in reality the uptake is modest, the cost of providing such complimentary items is somewhat minimal in comparison.

Travelling back to Nottingham midweek on the last London departure a few weeks ago in Standard we were all offered a free sandwich or salad and those of us (most) who took up the offer were told we could take 2 of we wanted.

Seems like there was a lot of unclaimed/unsold ones that day!

 

[Travelmonkey]

I often can't eat a full English/Scottish/Welsh these days so my preference is for something like eggs Benedict or salmon and scrambled eggs really. LNER, Avanti, Caledonian Sleeper cater to this well.

I've found that the "in room" breakfast on the Cally sleeper is definitely more akin to EMRs offering although the sausage is obviously the square lorne kind.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Sep 2025 ==

Travelling back to Nottingham midweek on the last London departure a few weeks ago in Standard we were all offered a free sandwich or salad and those of us (most) who took up the offer were told we could take 2 of we wanted.

Seems like there was a lot of unclaimed/unsold ones that day!

It does seem a thing with the late trains. I can always make room in my rucksack for a extra if needs be.