Not in my experience. Presumably depends which services you are travelling on.
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Change to EMR First Class - what will it mean?
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Butts
Veteran Member
SFA ?
Even for the whole length of the line ?
I know it's not what you want to hear, but indeed.
I tried doing a spoiler but it didn't work well!
Butts
Veteran Member
Strange how this area of service varies so much between Long Service Operators some State Run and others Privatised
Top of the Pops...
Avanti
LNER
TPE
GWR
Relegation Candidates
XC
EMR
Scotrail
Was there ever provision of Free Alcohol under any of the previous incarnations of EMR ?
Not that I have known.
I think there was under National Express, but it was a long time ago so my memory may be playing tricks ....... and of no relevance to the new EMR 'service' coming in next week anyway.
Butts
Veteran Member
How about a New Improved Service - with Alcohol ?
Do they hold focus groups? - I'm sure that would be a popular addition.
duffield
Established Member
Oh yes, I have faint memories of being offered wine a number of years ago on the MML (and turning it down of course, since my staff travel facilities strictly did not permit it!).
Travelmonkey
Member
as much as free alcohol is a good thing even other oprators regulate when they hand it out. I know from trying to get gin with breakfast a little while ago on Avanti. It does seem like it needs more clarification but there is only so much can be done with EMR. there are other corridors that offer far less in their offerings. Although thats more due to commuter stock then intercity stock. it is also worth noting bar a few trolleys on the Liverpool>Norwich the london trains are the only other ones with onboard food and drink. Maybe they should follow chiltern's lead bin off catering and keep the 1st class like their new coaches for loco hauled no catering on them. It could be worse, It could be better but it is not that long a journey compared to even some of EMRs other trunk routes.
tocguard
Member
In my opinion the fact new trains are being launched is a MASSIVE missed opportunity to revamp First Class. In recent years the offering has become absolutely dire. Designated breakfast trains have gone. Drinks are served in tacky disposable cups which are not environmentally friendly and an ongoing cost to replenish. Food offering seems to be a bare minimum rotation of two sandwiches and a onion bhaji wrap, which would get very boring, very quickly.
This latest attempt to make changes seems to be for the worse, yet again. I've heard rumours of more tackiness in the form of pre-pakaged cardboard boxes to get handed out as "AM" and "PM" offerings, containing snacks. Instead of passengers being offered a selection of items, this idea means people may get items they didn't want/don't like and could get wasted. Being handed out unnecessarily equals more cost waste.
People have commented about First Class tickets being "too cheap" which seems a bizarre stance to take. I wouldn't particularly describe many tickets in the UK as being cheap, let alone too cheap.
The First offering is relatively measly and disappointing in comparison to other TOCs and whilst some routes may command higher prices, they most certainly offer much much more, and in my view, what First Class is actually about. Let's not forget that most EMR services only have one customer host doing the service as opposed to Avanti, LNER, GWR etc that regularly have crews of 3+. EMR are in comparison, saving a lot of money on staff but still offering very little, with this looking to be even less shortly. The First Class is routinely busy so there is demand and revenue coming in so why not use the 810s introduction to woo people to an "improved" First Class, even if advance tickets are priced a little higher (if they really are too cheap) to pay for a little extra offering? It works on other TOCs and keeps First accommodation busy so why would you keep chipping away at what is offered. I feel this massively devalues the point of First and takes away the special premium that will perhaps make a lot of people feel it is not worth the extra cost.
This latest attempt to make changes seems to be for the worse, yet again. I've heard rumours of more tackiness in the form of pre-pakaged cardboard boxes to get handed out as "AM" and "PM" offerings, containing snacks. Instead of passengers being offered a selection of items, this idea means people may get items they didn't want/don't like and could get wasted. Being handed out unnecessarily equals more cost waste.
People have commented about First Class tickets being "too cheap" which seems a bizarre stance to take. I wouldn't particularly describe many tickets in the UK as being cheap, let alone too cheap.
The First offering is relatively measly and disappointing in comparison to other TOCs and whilst some routes may command higher prices, they most certainly offer much much more, and in my view, what First Class is actually about. Let's not forget that most EMR services only have one customer host doing the service as opposed to Avanti, LNER, GWR etc that regularly have crews of 3+. EMR are in comparison, saving a lot of money on staff but still offering very little, with this looking to be even less shortly. The First Class is routinely busy so there is demand and revenue coming in so why not use the 810s introduction to woo people to an "improved" First Class, even if advance tickets are priced a little higher (if they really are too cheap) to pay for a little extra offering? It works on other TOCs and keeps First accommodation busy so why would you keep chipping away at what is offered. I feel this massively devalues the point of First and takes away the special premium that will perhaps make a lot of people feel it is not worth the extra cost.
I've had LNER serve me very early morning beer before now. The lad just apologised that it wasn't chilled.
I wouldn't mind catering being binned off as a 1st class perk (providing a small reduction in the fares). I more take issue with operators over publicising the catering then not providing it and saying well acksually it does say complimentary in the small print.
Either provide it as part of the offering and provide a small compensation payment when unavailable, or just charge for it.
Travelmonkey
Member
The GWR/TFW dining model would be good especially if rolled out to the longer distance operators, you pay for dinner if there is time. Obviously your not gonna get a full 3 course meal in a 20 min hop but a brew would be nice.
Ultimately the longest EMR journeys between London and Sheffield are the same as the shortest full length LNER journeys and not much longer than the shortest Avanti journeys between Euston and Birmingham.
When you had loads of commuters and business travellers willing to pay a premium for the full offering it made sense, now that traffic is far smaller the reduced offering is to be expected. There just isn't the really long distance trade on top to make the shorter stuff worthwhile.
When you had loads of commuters and business travellers willing to pay a premium for the full offering it made sense, now that traffic is far smaller the reduced offering is to be expected. There just isn't the really long distance trade on top to make the shorter stuff worthwhile.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Certainly first class is moving from being a premium business thing to being a leisure and self-upgrade thing - I don't think the appropriate level of service for that has quite settled yet, and I guess it'll be GBR that has to look at it across the intercity offering. Standard Premium is one extreme end of it, though it is known that leisure travellers like freebies, so nothing at all may not be the best choice, you just need to keep the costs low. The various levels LNER offer (Dine, Dish, Deli and Brunch) based on how lucrative a given train is in First Class terms is perhaps the way it is likely to go, though with EMR being similar to the GWR Bristols and Avanti Birminghams in being very short journeys in IC terms I think it is never going to be a full luxury offering.
I think much of the desire for it is that Midland Mainline (the TOC) were very much a full service offering but had the market to support that and were a comparatively small operation. That was a long time ago now and whilst Stagecoach supported an element of that over the years I think COVID has killed it off.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Certainly business budgets are tightening all the time and have often become tighter than individual budgets, e.g. my personal approach (outside of LNER which I just tend to avoid because it's too expensive) is generally to purchase walk-up fares (aside from IC Anytimes which are ludicrously expensive), whereas my employer's approach in common with most these days is that Advances must be used where possible to save money, while First Class would only ever be by self-upgrade e.g. using Seatfrog or Weekend First. That probably has got tighter since COVID but it's been developing for a while and aligns with policies on air travel.
It doesn’t matter which trains you travel on, EMR IC carries more passengers now than EMT IC did. This is partly why the buffets and first class seating on the 810s are substantially reduced in scope compared to the meridians.
ChrisC
Established Member
Whenever I travel between Nottingham and London on the MML, I always travel First Class. I completely fall into the leisure traveller category you refer to. My return journey is usually when I am going to be staying in London for a few days or part of a longer split ticket journey to somewhere on or towards the south coast. My travel is therefore always off peak, and as I prefer flexible tickets rather than Advance tickets, I travel using a Super Off Peak Return. From Nottingham, with my railcard, the fare is approx £85 compared to the Standard Class fare of approx £55. Therefore it works out at only around £15 extra each way.
The main reason I travel First Class is the guarantee of always getting a seat with slightly more comfort and space. Above all it’s being able to store my luggage, usually just a small or medium sized case, close by and within view. Even though by Kettering even First Class can get quite full it is usually relatively quiet without people playing loud music and holding loud phone conversations on speaker phone. The refreshments are a welcome added bonus and if you include the sandwiches/wraps or even better a salad, alongside the drinks, biscuits, crisps etc it’s well worth it.
The big question for me now is will I continue to travel First Class when the 810’s eventually are introduced. If the overhead luggage racks will take a small case and there is no overcrowding in Standard Class I may give it a try. It certainly works put far cheaper if I can get a standard class Super Off Peak Return for example from Nottingham through to somewhere in Kent or Sussex.
The discussion was about first class and you said EMR now carried far more passengers. Now you seem to be saying first class seating is being substantially reduced, which would actually tie in with my experience that there are not far more passengers in first class than previously. If there are substantially more passengers in first than previously (even if generally not on the trains I use) then surely they would not reducing the first class seating provision ?
Undoubtedly there are now more passengers in standard, but this thread is about first class.
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duffield
Established Member
1st is not being reduced as an absolute number, only as a percentage. Most 5 car 222s have 50 1st class seats (but a few only have 32); the 810s have 47. The only significant reductions will be if a single 5 car 810 replaces one of the four 7 car 222s - but the 27 222s are being replaced by 33 810s, so it's quite possible the 7 car 222 services could be replaced by 2x5 car 810s, which will give 94 1st class seats as opposed to 104 in the 7 car sets.
Overall there will be 47 x 33 = 1551 1st seats in the new fleet, compared to 1494** seats in the 222 fleet.
So while many services will see a barely significant reduction in 1st seat numbers, some may see an increase if what is currently a single unit is replaced by a double.
** I make it 104*4+50*19+32*4 given that there are four five car units with 18 less 1st class seats than the rest.
Thanks for that detail - so not a substantial reduction in first then, rather an increase in standard..
And you are a perfect example of someone travelling from one end of the route to the other, who will appreciate a sandwich etc. and presumably will be disappointed if people on much shorter journeys have jumped into first between Leicester and Nottingham, say, and hogged the sandwiches.
It’s likely that first class will need to be priced to a higher premium above standard in the new trains to prevent it being regularly full, and ruining the ambience you describe.
I said there are more passengers overall and first and galley size is being reduced compared to the Meridians, which have far too much of it, due to the need to accommodate more passengers on the route in five car trains. None of this suggests that the decision to remove sandwiches from the short first class journeys is the wrong one - rather the opposite.
I am annoyed by this as the specific example they have given of Derby Sheffield is a journey I do and do go first class to get supper on the journey. When I've done it there are generally few first class passengers joiner at Derby and the host has easily got round us. They should charge slightly more if needed rather than withdraw the food.
However I do also want to defend the EMR first class offer in general.
I do really miss the first class breakfast trains but I can see the economics were bonkers! 3-4 extra staff including the chef on a 2 hour journey with no return working.
Even despite that for EMR journeys which for the main route will be 90 mins from Derby/Nottingham to/from London the offer stands up well due to the choice available. In my experience the sandwich choice changes frequently unlike the once every 6 months you get on LNER for instance. There is also generally a choice of flavours in each of crisps, cakes and biscuits.
It wouldn’t be enough for 3 hour plus journeys but no-one is making them on EMR
However I do also want to defend the EMR first class offer in general.
I do really miss the first class breakfast trains but I can see the economics were bonkers! 3-4 extra staff including the chef on a 2 hour journey with no return working.
Even despite that for EMR journeys which for the main route will be 90 mins from Derby/Nottingham to/from London the offer stands up well due to the choice available. In my experience the sandwich choice changes frequently unlike the once every 6 months you get on LNER for instance. There is also generally a choice of flavours in each of crisps, cakes and biscuits.
It wouldn’t be enough for 3 hour plus journeys but no-one is making them on EMR
tocguard
Member
I would disagree. Firstly, breakfast trains were generally only rostered a Crew Leader and chef plus an additional host, so yes, whilst it was necessary to have a chef and an extra couple of pairs of hands, the crew still only would be a maximum of 3 extra on those trains only. The only exceptions to this were if you had spares on the morning that would go on breakfast trains as opposed to sitting about if everything was covered and anything later would be out of their hours. If you looked at it in terms of how much extra uplift it cost to not only travel in first but first at peak time, it was silly money and originally you used to have to pay £10 for breakfast too. Additionally, chef cooked breakfast baguettes were also sold throughout standard as an extra source of revenue. Whilst it might not have fully covered the cost, it certainly added an element of premium travel that no longer exists and no doubt puts some off travelling first at peak time, therefore loss of revenue.
By contrast, the Saturday breakfast trains were rammed, and I mean RAMMED. Without fail each week you'd be doing 50+ breakfasts. The "London day out" ticket was hugely a prolonged success and a real shame it ended. There was no way that didn't attract people to first class, bring in lots of revenue and considered to bring regular repeat custom. Even the few passengers that inadvertently found themselves on a breakfast train all wanted to be a part of it and handed over £10 each to be served breakfast.
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For reference, I'm currently on the 2132 out of St Pancras which incidentally is the last Sheffield due to engineering works tonight, so it's possibly a little busier than normal.
First is approximately 75% occupied. In this coach there is 15 people. From observation it looks like most people had a bottle of water, around 12 people had a hot drink and only two people had a sandwich. The crew were pushing them too saying "we can't give them away". Unless there are particularly bad trains where people take the mickey, as a semi regular occupier of First, the uptake of catering seems fairly consistent. If every passenger departing St Pancras is in theory entitled to everything, but yet in reality the uptake is modest, the cost of providing such complimentary items is somewhat minimal in comparison.
I can't see any reason to reduce the offering except for two reasons. One is to reduce costs by perhaps carrying less stock through reducing orders. The other, which I'm more inclined to believe, is to make the workload less for the crew. As has been established, First can be pretty busy. Most services only have one or two Customer Hosts. Instead of addressing the this issue by either increasing fares to reduce First numbers and increase revenue, or employ more Customer Hosts, this is the alternative. Don't really increase fares, let First remain busy, don't crew the trains to a sufficient level to guarantee a certain level of service, so reduce it. It's a poor state of affairs and I would have thought the introduction of new trains, coupled with a revitalised First Class menu could have been a really good opportunity to look at the First advance pricing, increase it slightly (for the reasons above) and if it proves to be working, look at using the increased revenue to pay for an even better First Class offering. It doesn't have to be much but it's pretty poor soft drinks are chargeable as one example. It would be nice to get it back up to a decent standard and I feel that the opportunity is there and unfortunately isn't being exploited. The on board crews are a good bunch and always have been. It's a shame they aren't able to offer what they once could.
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I think it was widely known within EMR that the economics didn’t stack up, sadly. Then you need to take into account the space taken up by a kitchen suitable to cook a breakfast which was doable on HSTs, but obviously the shorter train lengths now and in the future preclude this.
To prevent limited supplies of food being given to those who short journeys, which means those on longer higher value journeys potentially miss out on their choice of sandwich. First have a dedicated host at EMR so it won’t be a question of reducing crew workload.
I would agree that first should also be increased in price as it’s regularly busy and yet we read above of people paying less for first class tickets than for standard.
tocguard
Member
Yes I know, I work there and have done the job. Maybe my point was misunderstood. It was meant that it would be done in order to reduce crew workload, not make redundancies. Most trains have 1, and some have 2 Customer Hosts. There are busy trains such as those that are bacon roll trains that only have 1. Imagine how long it's taking to do the service for 30 people and provide bacon rolls on top of the usual service without an extra pair of hands. By reducing the entitlement of what people are offered means the Customer Host is slightly less occupied and can give a better level of service. The alternative is that more Customer Hosts are recruited and increased train staffing to continue to provide a higher level of service. There was always the guide that the ratio of First class passengers to Hosts was 30. So that's why most 5 car 222s are allocated 1 host. 7 car and HSTs were allocated 2 as there was more capacity and advance tickets sold. Now you can have busier First class almost at capacity seeing as most units are 5 car but with still 1 host, sometimes putting a strain on the service offering and frequency.
duffield
Established Member
I think we should wait and see how the class 810 introduction goes before raising the price of 1st. With the considerably uplift in standard accommodation, people who use 1st just to ensure a seat may no longer do so and the extra seats should mean more cheap standard advances which may attract some people away from 1st. So 1st occupancy may go down to an appropriate level or even to a level where the prices need reducing rather than increasing. On the other hand, the new trains may attract so much extra custom overall that 1st gets even more crowded at times and price rises are even more necessary!
All speculation of course, but that's why making any decisions now when we are in theory within about a six month window of seeing at least some 810s in passenger service would be premature.
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