Change to EMR First Class - what will it mean?

[styles]

Having just checked - early next week there are First Class Advances available between Sheffield and Derby, on numerous EMR services, for £10.60. But many/most first class leisure travellers will have a railcard, reducing the fare to £7.05.

For seven quid, if you're offered a coffee and a biscuit on a thirty-minute journey, I think you should consider yourself lucky.

First class fare revenue should be putting money back into the subsidised railway. So calls for, effectively, a Meal Deal offering (supermarket retail price £4) on a £7 fare don't reflect financial realities, and are getting close to a situation where the FC offer is subsidised by the rest of the train. No wonder EMR/DfT are addressing this situation in a measured way.

I assume the new trains will have a more suitable balance between Standard and First class seating numbers that will allow a higher average First Class fare - which is the way out of this conundrum in the long term.

Goodness forbid customers get value for money and an enjoyable dining experience on our trains.

 

[BeijingDave]

Why is first class so cheap and apparently underused?

Nottingham, Derby, Sheffield, Leicester and London are big population centres.

I doubt (grouped together) they are less rich, per capita income, than say Warrington, Stoke-on-Trent, Stafford and Nuneaton, whose customers all get obscene Arriva fares (and seem to pay them).

 

[Dr Hoo]

Over the last 30 years the Midland Main Line has been ‘my’ principal route. Twenty of years commuting (and business journeys and leisure) from Northamptonshire and then around 10 years of retirement in the Peak District.

It is obvious to me that the traditional business First Class market had largely gone. I can remember when The Master Cutler was a special HST formation with three full First Class coaches. But all of the main cities have seen major changes from their industrial past. For an illustration from Sheffield you could watch The Full Monty for the underlying story. Steel, coal, engineering and textiles gone or a shadow of their former selves.

Despite higher frequencies and slightly faster services there is less traditional business to go for. Yes, to some extent things like academia and cultural aspects have grown but especially with the internet and video conferencing less need for business travel.

I would dispute that First Class is underused on many trains but it is far more a clientele of leisure and tourist passengers.

In the last years of the traditional Cutler I’ve had a traditional cooked breakfast but was struck at how many of my fellow travellers were hacking away on laptops, with a coffee having refused their ‘free’/included meal.

 

[Skymonster]

I'll admit to having taken advantage of the First Class Offpeak Day Return from Derby to Sheffield on a number of occasions. It's a bargain, even more so with a railcard, given there's a good chance of a bacon roll in the morning and a sandwich, crisps and cake in the afternoon. I have always been conscious that catering restrictions could be brought in, and now they have. For me, it's gone from 'why would I even consider standard class?' to 'why should I bother paying extra for first?' I have no idea whether the uplift from standard to first covers the true cost of the items that are offered, but I do know that EMR will get less revenue from me on these short journeys now.

 

[nottsnurse]

They could make things even more "simple and convenient" by not providing any food and drink whatsoever.

Or just get rid of 1st Class altogether.

 

[WesternLancer]

So calls for, effectively, a Meal Deal offering (supermarket retail price £4) on a £7 fare don't reflect financial realities, and are getting close to a situation where the FC offer is subsidised by the rest of the train. No wonder EMR/DfT are addressing this situation in a measured way.

That's probably a good analogy on the value of what they give away (to the passenger) - but on a rule of thumb the supermarket probably has to charge double what it costs them to buy this in and cover their overheads etc and make a profit on the meal deal. The railway doesn't have those over heads in the same way anyway - no shop for example, and as others have said they may well have a member of staff covering the work anyway - so no saving there

I'd wager that the cost to the railway of the complimentary products to the average passenger is going to be about £2 or perhaps a little bit more.

After all - this is why they give it away! because it's very cheap and for some reason people like "free" stuff - even if the quality is pretty poor - so you get good will for minuscule cost and can keep charging very high first class unregulated fares...

Personally I'd rather they gave nothing away but had a decent menu offer that you purchased if you actually wanted it.

 

[sh24]

In the last years of the traditional Cutler I’ve had a traditional cooked breakfast but was struck at how many of my fellow travellers were hacking away on laptops, with a coffee having refused their ‘free’/included meal.

I'm using the MML at least weekly to Nottingham and Derby. I'm also in a small minority as a laptop hacker outside of the 7-9am window to and from London. The normal First class passenger has definitely changed in the last 5 years.

 

[Fokx]

Perhaps the Transport for Wales model is the future of First Class?

Have a lower base cost for a first class upgrade (similar to that of a distanced based weekend) which would grant you the more spacious accomodation, complimentary hot drinks, soft drinks and biscuits. Great for those travelling short distances, those that are cost conscious or those who have recently had a full meal prior to the journey.

For a fixed additional charge on top of the upgrade, offer enhanced catering such as the aforementioned Bacon roll, Sandwiches, and Alcohol, or small meals similar to TPE and the other TOC's utilising the small micro-ovens of the Hitachi fleet.

As an example:
£15 for first class
£10 for Enhanced catering and alcohol
£25 total.

Compared to TfW's:
£20 - seat upgrade
£24 - 2 Course meal (£27 3 course)
£44 total

 

[styles]

Perhaps the Transport for Wales model is the future of First Class?

Have a lower base cost for a first class upgrade (similar to that of a distanced based weekend) which would grant you the more spacious accomodation, complimentary hot drinks, soft drinks and biscuits. Great for those travelling short distances, those that are cost conscious or those who have recently had a full meal prior to the journey.

For a fixed additional charge on top of the upgrade, offer enhanced catering such as the aforementioned Bacon roll, Sandwiches, and Alcohol, or small meals similar to TPE and the other TOC's utilising the small micro-ovens of the Hitachi fleet.

As an example:
£15 for first class
£10 for Enhanced catering and alcohol
£25 total.

Compared to TfW's:
£20 - seat upgrade
£24 - 2 Course meal (£27 3 course)
£44 total

TfW Premier is a fantastic service and good value for money. For £42 you get a 3 course meal with a bottle of wine. That's on par with regular restaurant prices and the quality is excellent. Breakfast time you can get poached eggs on toast for £7, the full Welsh breakfast is good too.

Better than a soggy bacon roll on EMR/XC.

 

[weeklycommuter]

Like Sheffield, Bournemouth has two trains an hour to London each taking around two hours. For Bournemouth the SWR service is provided by 10-car Class 444 trains with 654 standard class and 64 first class seats, all two plus two seating and no catering.

There are a lot more seats on the two SWR trains an hour each way Bournemouth to/from London Waterloo than on the two EMR trains an hour each Sheffield and Nottingham to/from London St Pancras because all the space on the SWR Class 444 trains is used for two plus two seating instead of some of the space being used for kitchens and two plus one seating.

I cannot see the point in continuing to have any sort of meals service for a journey which is two hours for Sheffield and one hour 40 minutes for Nottingham. Surely the priority should be to provide as many seats as possible on the trains by filling the trains with two plus two seating.

 

[WesternLancer]

I cannot see the point in continuing to have any sort of meals service for a journey which is two hours for Sheffield and one hour 40 minutes for Nottingham. Surely the priority should be to provide as many seats as possible on the trains by filling the trains with two plus two seating.

If you take that logic why not have 3+2 seating

I totally disagree.

 

[duffield]

Like Sheffield, Bournemouth has two trains an hour to London each taking around two hours. For Bournemouth the SWR service is provided by 10-car Class 444 trains with 654 standard class and 64 first class seats, all two plus two seating and no catering.

There are a lot more seats on the two SWR trains an hour each way Bournemouth to/from London Waterloo than on the two EMR trains an hour each Sheffield and Nottingham to/from London St Pancras because all the space on the SWR Class 444 trains is used for two plus two seating instead of some of the space being used for kitchens and two plus one seating.

I cannot see the point in continuing to have any sort of meals service for a journey which is two hours for Sheffield and one hour 40 minutes for Nottingham. Surely the priority should be to provide as many seats as possible on the trains by filling the trains with two plus two seating.

The forthcoming class 810s have a large increase in standard class seating while keeping the 1st provision the same, with 2+1 seating. 2+2 seating would provide just another 15 seats approx, the small kitchen perhaps another 8 seats while losing considerable revenue from people who will no longer pay the 1st premium. Just because other lines with two hour journeys have inferior or no 1st class provision I don't see why the MML should join them, and fortunately it will not.

 

[weeklycommuter]

If you take that logic why not have 3+2 seating

I totally disagree.

3+2 seating does not work for medium to long distance journeys. 2+2 seating is fine. I am very happy with the Class 444 trains.

 

[WesternLancer]

3+2 seating does not work for medium to long distance journeys. 2+2 seating is fine. I am very happy with the Class 444 trains.

well you said the priority should be to have as many seats as possible - which isn't the same as what works best

My view is that the priority should be to have the right mix of accommodation provision to meet the demand / need and market desire to pay for different levels of service at the right price that people are prepared to pay for when balanced against a comfortable journey that competes well against other modes for market share.

 

[weeklycommuter]

The forthcoming class 810s have a large increase in standard class seating while keeping the 1st provision the same, with 2+1 seating. 2+2 seating would provide just another 15 seats approx, the small kitchen perhaps another 8 seats while losing considerable revenue from people who will no longer pay the 1st premium. Just because other lines with two hour journeys have inferior or no 1st class provision I don't see why the MML should join them, and fortunately it will not.

Clearly they are already cutting it back, presumably on orders from the Government, so that remains to be seen.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Sep 2025 ==

well you said the priority should be to have as many seats as possible - which isn't the same as what works best

3 + 2 seating does not in reality provide significantly more seats than 2 +2 seating as the middle seat of three is often not used. For medium and long distance services 2 + 2 seating provides the maximum possible number of usable seats.

 

[duffield]

Clearly they are already cutting it back, presumably on orders from the Government, so that remains to be seen.

I'm sure they're not going to rip out the 2+1 seating on the brand new trains and replace it with 2+2 to gain 15 seats. I'm also confident there will be some sort of catering provision even if not much more than drinks and snacks. I really think this whole business is a storm in a teacup, it merely formalises the current situation where 1st catering on certain shorter journeys like Leicester to Nottingham is minimal or often non-existent. This "change" may have absolutely nothing to do with the DfT but may relate to passengers on short journeys under the current arrangements complaining that they are not getting the full catering. The new policy will give EMR something to point to explaining they were not entitled in the first place.

 

[Trainman40083]

I'm using the MML at least weekly to Nottingham and Derby. I'm also in a small minority as a laptop hacker outside of the 7-9am window to and from London. The normal First class passenger has definitely changed in the last 5 years.

I'm not surprised it has changed. No First Class lounges, shut at COVID, unreliable WiFi, maybe even seat reservations etc. I'm sure I saw reference to 75% of people who travel from Sheffield to London, now go by car.

 

[weeklycommuter]

I'm sure they're not going to rip out the 2+1 seating on the brand new trains and replace it with 2+2 to gain 15 seats.

SWR replaced all the 2+1 seating with 2+2 seating on the Class 444 and Class 450 trains around ten years ago. That is why the Class 444 trains now only have 2+2 seating. The 35 former 2+1 first class seats were replaced with 2+2 seating of which 32 seats are first class. This did increase the total number of seats on a 10-car train from 668 to 718. They also got rid of the buffets and guard compartments to add more 2+2 seating.

If they decide in future that they must have more seats on the Sheffield and Nottingham to London services they could make changes to the new EMR Class 810 trains. Avanti converted coach G on their 11-car Class 390 trains from first class to standard class.

 

[DDB]

I think the key thing we are still lacking is EMR telling us what they are saying are short journeys. Only then can we judge the reasonableness of it. Is there any sign of more details?

 

[py_megapixel]

I believe they're doing this for cost reasons, rather than the difficulty of delivering sandwiches to seats on 30 minute journeys. The more cynical side of me believes they want to make 1st class a less attractive offering so they can make the case for reducing the amount of space allocated to it, so they can make more money by putting in additional standard seating.

If they thought it would make more money to just put in additional standard seating, would they not just do that?

It would be a relatively straightforward change, almost certainly popular with a majority of passengers, and if they can present a convincing argument that it would increase their income then I can't see how it could be blocked by DfT cost concerns.

 

[duffield]

If they thought it would make more money to just put in additional standard seating, would they not just do that?

It would be a relatively straightforward change, almost certainly popular with a majority of passengers, and if they can present a convincing argument that it would increase their income then I can't see how it could be blocked by DfT cost concerns.

In the current circumstances it would be anything but straightforward, with the class 222s on their way out while the class 810s are just about to limp into service. It would involve taking vehicles out of service when they are unable on some days to operate the current service due to a shortage of fit rolling stock. And the idea of some sort of expensive and delaying contract variation involving the class 810s having part or all of 1st removed is unthinkable with them already being three years late and arriving *after* the 222s are starting to be withdrawn, creating an ongoing rolling stock shortage which will probably last until 2027.

The 222s will not have any changes before they go off lease (by the end of next year approximately). The 810s will be introduced exactly as specified with 47 1st class seats. The chances of EMR starting a program of taking brand new units out of service and to rip out the brand new 1st class seats before the end of their franchise are approximately zero.

 

[sh24]

If they thought it would make more money to just put in additional standard seating, would they not just do that?

It would be a relatively straightforward change, almost certainly popular with a majority of passengers, and if they can present a convincing argument that it would increase their income then I can't see how it could be blocked by DfT cost concerns.

If removing First class was popular with passengers, they would have done so by declassifying the existing trains as has been done with the XC 170 fleet. This hasn't happened so clearly there is a profitable market to be served.

 

[markindurham]

Having read this thread, I'm a little concerned now - my wife & I are returning north from that there London on a Saturday in November, and as there's engineering work on the ECML, I've booked us First Class tickets out of St Pancras, just to vary the journey home. I do hope that I haven't made a big error of judgement - we're booked St P to Sheffield, then Sheffield to Leeds.

Mark

 

[Trainman40083]

Having read this thread, I'm a little concerned now - my wife & I are returning north from that there London on a Saturday in November, and as there's engineering work on the ECML, I've booked us First Class tickets out of St Pancras, just to vary the journey home. I do hope that I haven't made a big error of judgement - we're booked St P to Sheffield, then Sheffield to Leeds.

Mark

Worst that will happen is they will declassify first class on the day, depending upon disruption level on ECML...

 

[sh24]

Having read this thread, I'm a little concerned now - my wife & I are returning north from that there London on a Saturday in November, and as there's engineering work on the ECML, I've booked us First Class tickets out of St Pancras, just to vary the journey home. I do hope that I haven't made a big error of judgement - we're booked St P to Sheffield, then Sheffield to Leeds.

Mark

What kind of concern do you have? The seats are the same, the trains to the same timetable and on a long route you'll still get broadly the same catering offer.

 

[markindurham]

Worst that will happen is they will declassify first class on the day, depending upon disruption level on ECML...

Oh, I hope not - it's rail replacement north of Doncaster on the ECML, so who knows...

Mark

 

[WesternLancer]

If they thought it would make more money to just put in additional standard seating, would they not just do that?

It would be a relatively straightforward change, almost certainly popular with a majority of passengers, and if they can present a convincing argument that it would increase their income then I can't see how it could be blocked by DfT cost concerns.

No. They wouldn’t

 

[markindurham]

What kind of concern do you have? The seats are the same, the trains to the same timetable and on a long route you'll still get broadly the same catering offer.

The impression I got, from quite a few posts, was that First was OK-ish, but not as good as it was or could/should be.

Anyway, we'll just have to see how it goes.

Mark

 

[WesternLancer]

The impression I got, from quite a few posts, was that First was OK-ish, but not as good as it was or could/should be.

Anyway, we'll just have to see how it goes.

Mark

You will find it fairly basic if you are used to Lner. But not bad.

 

[markindurham]

You will find it fairly basic if you are used to Lner. But not bad.

Thank you

Mark